[PROPOSAL] JT Miller to Vegas Golden Knights

[JM_]

14 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

For sure. In 2020-21 players(Petey/Hughes especially) had to constantly face media always asking about the losses(Tanev/Toffoli) over the 2020 off-season and how that impacted the season. 

 

You either re-sign him or look for the best offer. JR/PA have numbers(fair I hope) in mind for Miller so if it works out it works out. If not then he'll get dealt. This off-season has the most suitors for trade so it would be better to try to figure out a conclusion to extension talks this off-season. He shouldn't go into 2022-23 as an upcoming UFA. 

 

We need to limit as many question marks going into next year. That means decisions on Boeser/Miller, try to get Horvat re-signed, cap cleared for flexibility, etc.

I've always liked Burke's take on these things. Yes sometimes players walk as UFAs but you also get the cap space and roster spot to do something else.

 

To do it just to recover anything is the wrong move, imo. Or even for a deal like is proposed in the OP, particularly when there are other levers to pull like an offer sheet for Roy, e.g. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

this is what I think would happen if Miller is moved for "asset management" purposes only. I think the team would much rather go into next year with Miller vs some other scenario where the team isn't immediately improved. 

Is there really any potential for a Miller Trade where we “improve”?  

I think trading Miller would almost certainly mean we take a step back.  

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I've always liked Burke's take on these things. Yes sometimes players walk as UFAs but you also get the cap space and roster spot to do something else.

 

To do it just to recover anything is the wrong move, imo. Or even for a deal like is proposed in the OP, particularly when there are other levers to pull like an offer sheet for Roy, e.g. 

We should have moved Miller at the previous TDL.  Missed opportunity.  IMO that’s exactly what JR wanted to do but our owner stopped it.  The playoff race was bringing in fans and making money for him.  He had lost a lot the last couple years. 

[JM_]

Just now, Alflives said:

Is there really any potential for a Miller Trade where we “improve”?  

I think trading Miller would almost certainly mean we take a step back.  

there might be, it depends on the package... haven't seen it yet but that doesn't mean we can't be surprised with a deal.

 

Our prospect pool is thin as an Albertans skin when talking Trudeau. Its going to take 3-4 years rebuilding it, and any b-trade move for Miller is going to be part of that group. Colour me bored if thats the deal. I'd rather see him as an own-rental that walks.

 

And he may not walk. He might love being here if the team looks competitive and on the up. Maybe he re-signs in January or even post-TDL. 

[Elias Pettersson]

20 minutes ago, Alflives said:

We have Bruce back for one year.  Price tag is 2.5 mil.

We trade away Miller this summer (for youth) we clearly are not as good and taking a step back.

 

Is Bruce the coach for that kind of direction?  I think not, especially considering he’s signed for just the one year.

Next year at this time we will be hiring a new coach on a three year deal that totals (for all three years) 2.5 mil.  

Imo that’s what JR was hoping to do this summer.  He was hoping ?Bruce would not take the option year, so he could hire a new coach for three years.  Then that new coach would take the club through the stepping back year our two.  

 

Its almost like JR has no choice but to go all in for this last year of Bruce, or what’s the point of that 2.5 mil?  

JR said he doesn't want to take a step back.  That is why he said he wants to re-sign Miller in the summer.  However, if Miller is wanting a number that the Canucks can't afford then they have no choice but to trade him.  They could always pick up a UFA or two to fill the gap.  650 was talking about how Kuzmenko could fill a hole in the top 6 and on the PP.  Miller got half his points on the PP, so if Kuzmenko can come in and make a difference and play on PP1 that would cover alot of Miller's production.  Plus my proposal to trade Miller to Vegas for Roy and Hague would fill our need for a 3C and get us another 40-45 point guy.

 

It will be an interesting summer for sure.  Who knows, there is always a possibility that we re-sign Miller and trade Horvat.  You never know.  JR is not emotional to any of these guys.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

We should have moved Miller at the previous TDL.  Missed opportunity.  IMO that’s exactly what JR wanted to do but our owner stopped it.  The playoff race was bringing in fans and making money for him.  He had lost a lot the last couple years. 

it could be, maybe financially it had to happen. We don't know how much debt the Canucks have coming out of covid. 

 

But JR seems like a guy who wouldn't be interested in that kind of working relationship. I think the offers just weren't that great. 

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is there really any potential for a Miller Trade where we “improve”?  

I think trading Miller would almost certainly mean we take a step back.  

If we trade Miller to Vegas for my proposal PLUS add Kuzmenko and another forward like Kessel then at the very least we can cover for Miller.  Improvement is subjective because we need help on defence, so sacrificing some scoring for help on the defensive side may actually improve us.

[mll]

13 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

What are you exactly implying in regards with Miller?

That they need to make sure to manage the key players' expectation and get them onboard with whatever happens.  Not sure that putting them in front of the fait accompli is going to work another time.  If they then make the playoffs without Miller, it's likely to be water under the bridge but if they don't then there could be frustration building up.  

 

This group went through the bubble, Covid and the Green era together.  To build a team they need players to be tight and want to battle for each other - there's emotional attachment but somehow they are to take roster moves with detachment as it's just a business. 

 

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If we trade Miller to Vegas for my proposal PLUS add Kuzmenko and another forward like Kessel then at the very least we can cover for Miller. 

two wingers tho. We'd still need to find more C depth somewhere for the top 6. 

 

6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Improvement is subjective because we need help on defence, so sacrificing some scoring for help on the defensive side may actually improve us.

Hague may improve us sooner than later, thats true. 

[Elias Pettersson]

6 minutes ago, JM_ said:

two wingers tho. We'd still need to find more C depth somewhere for the top 6. 

 

Hague may improve us sooner than later, thats true. 

Roy is a 3C.  And a good one at that.  Horvat would be our 2C.  Plus like you said Hague would improve the defence.

 

Adding Kuzmenko, Roy, Hague and Kessel might make up for the loss of Miller.  At the very least we would be neutral but have a more balanced lineup...

Edited May 14, 2022 by Elias Pettersson

[Junkyard Dog]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I've always liked Burke's take on these things. Yes sometimes players walk as UFAs but you also get the cap space and roster spot to do something else.

 

To do it just to recover anything is the wrong move, imo. Or even for a deal like is proposed in the OP, particularly when there are other levers to pull like an offer sheet for Roy, e.g. 

When it's a prime asset like Miller you have to make a decision on it. Especially if you've made it clear that your main goal is to create a lasting contending team. 

 

Just letting guys walk for nothing is the complete opposite move. The only benefit is for that season and that season only at the cost of future, varying from degree based off the value of the player. In Miller's case a high level of degree.

 

IMO we shouldn't be managing our team with the entire focus on next year. Yeah you try to make the playoffs every year but to do that consistently you have to broaden your approach. You attack things from all fronts and sometimes make tough decisions. 

 

IMO he either has to be signed or dealt(if the goal is building a lasting contending team). It sounds like that's the plan JR/PA have.

 

I am not suggesting to move him for scraps. I don't even think that's possible given the calibre of player. 

[JM_]

15 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Roy is a 3C.  And a good one at that.  Horvat would be our 2C.  Plus like you said Hague would improve the defence.

 

Adding Kuzmenko, Roy, Hague and Kessel might make up for the loss of Miller.  At the very least we would be neutral but have a more balanced lineup...

I guess why not just offer sheet Roy? 

 

Would Kuzemko still want to sign here if we moved Miller?

[Alflives]

37 minutes ago, JM_ said:

it could be, maybe financially it had to happen. We don't know how much debt the Canucks have coming out of covid. 

 

But JR seems like a guy who wouldn't be interested in that kind of working relationship. I think the offers just weren't that great. 

JR said he didn’t want to have his owner paying the salaries of three head coaches.  So I believe he does think about the money he’s spending belongs to the owner.  

[Alflives]

28 minutes ago, mll said:

That they need to make sure to manage the key players' expectation and get them onboard with whatever happens.  Not sure that putting them in front of the fait accompli is going to work another time.  If they then make the playoffs without Miller, it's likely to be water under the bridge but if they don't then there could be frustration building up.  

 

This group went through the bubble, Covid and the Green era together.  To build a team they need players to be tight and want to battle for each other - there's emotional attachment but somehow they are to take roster moves with detachment as it's just a business. 

 

Trading Miller would be the first domino to fall in the start of a tear it down rebuild.  

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I guess why not just offer sheet Roy? 

 

Would Kuzemko still want to sign here if we moved Miller?

Kuzmenko will sign (IMO in Edmonton) before any decision on trading or keeping Miller happens.  

[Elias Pettersson]

11 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I guess why not just offer sheet Roy? 

 

Would Kuzemko still want to sign here if we moved Miller?

We can't afford to offer sheet Roy at $4 million if we are prepared to keep Miller.  It's one or the other, unless we are planning on trading Horvat...

[Junkyard Dog]

36 minutes ago, mll said:

That they need to make sure to manage the key players' expectation and get them onboard with whatever happens.  Not sure that putting them in front of the fait accompli is going to work another time.  If they then make the playoffs without Miller, it's likely to be water under the bridge but if they don't then there could be frustration building up.  

 

This group went through the bubble, Covid and the Green era together.  To build a team they need players to be tight and want to battle for each other - there's emotional attachment but somehow they are to take roster moves with detachment as it's just a business. 

 

That's a given and I have kind of been pointing to some of what you're saying already with Tanev/Toffoli and the 2020 off-season. 

 

It's definitely a tough balance between tough decisions and player expectation.

 

Some things you can't let linger too long though. When you have decisions that are made certain, like conclusions in Miller contract negotiations among other things, it allows you to deal in certainty moving forward. Example being going into a season with decisions Miller/Horvat signed is probably a lot easier with overall outlook and mapping out a future than going into it with them without a decision made and them still as upcoming UFAs

 

Also I would figure it could be tougher pill, for players, to swallow a tough decision having to be made during the season. Or you might have to retain the player to appease the players and risk it walking in FA if you can't work out a contract, which still ends up in the same boat with players and a key player walking in FA like in 2020

 

This off-season IMO is the best time to make these decisions and to try to get players on board with them.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Junkyard Dog

[Goal:thecup]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

We have Bruce back for one year.  Price tag is 2.5 mil.

We trade away Miller this summer (for youth) we clearly are not as good and taking a step back.

 

Is Bruce the coach for that kind of direction?  I think not, especially considering he’s signed for just the one year.

Next year at this time we will be hiring a new coach on a three year deal that totals (for all three years) 2.5 mil.  

Imo that’s what JR was hoping to do this summer.  He was hoping ?Bruce would not take the option year, so he could hire a new coach for three years.  Then that new coach would take the club through the stepping back year our two.  

 

Its almost like JR has no choice but to go all in for this last year of Bruce, or what’s the point of that 2.5 mil?  

Bruce is back; JR said he would review his contract next year along with something like "no such thing as a lame duck coach".

Bruce has talked to Miller; he knows JT wants to come back.

JR is going to squeeze him into an appropriate contract.

 

Bo will re-sign; again with an appropriate contract.

The Canucks with Bruce have forced JR to change 'Rebuilding' into 'Under New Management".

Miller is our number one center (sorry Petey) and a team champion of a leader.

 

We are deep down the middle with JR, EP, and BO.

Demko and Quinn are both on good contracts with term.

I'd like to see some tough fast wingers and a legit #1RHD of course.

But:

JR is the man to build this team to contend, from here on, no stepping back.

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Goal:thecup said:

Bruce is back; JR said he would review his contract next year along with something like "no such thing as a lame duck coach".

Bruce has talked to Miller; he knows JT wants to come back.

JR is going to squeeze him into an appropriate contract.

 

Bo will re-sign; again with an appropriate contract.

The Canucks with Bruce have forced JR to change 'Rebuilding' into 'Under New Management".

Miller is our number one center (sorry Petey) and a team champion of a leader.

 

We are deep down the middle with JR, EP, and BO.

Demko and Quinn are both on good contracts with term.

I'd like to see some tough fast wingers and a legit #1RHD of course.

But:

JR is the man to build this team to contend, from here on, no stepping back.

 

I think you’re right.  But is that JR’s philosophy for our direction or our owner’s?  If we bring back our extended core, we are very likely a playoff team (for the next four years) and our owner will make back a lot of the money he lost these last couple years.  

[JM_]

33 minutes ago, Alflives said:

JR said he didn’t want to have his owner paying the salaries of three head coaches.  So I believe he does think about the money he’s spending belongs to the owner.  

sure but thats just being a competent manager.