[discussion] CBJ - VAN

[hammertime]

40 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Malkin could be done. A 1-2 punch of Crosby and Miller at C.  Of course, PIT will need a RD, especially if they don't resign Letang and lose Marino.

 

to PIT:  Miller and Myers

to VAN:  Marino and Carter

 

Carter fills that #3C spot very nicely IMO.  He's old, but he's still got lots of game, and he's not expensive.

 

 

You must really hate Myers.

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 hours ago, mll said:

He doesn't make sense for Vancouver but somehow he makes sense for a team that is even younger than the Canucks and further away from contention?

 

@mll

 

I value your contribution, and all, but you pull quotes out of the air constantly, and my objection is, that according to all these GM's, there will never be another trade again, ever.

 

Yes, all trades have to make sense, and yes all teams want to keep their valued prospects and picks, but every year, players young and old are moved, during the summer, beginning of season, mid season and TDL and the draft, there is never one time when players will not be traded..............

 

GM's say alot of things for a lot of reasons, and they do not always share them, and as you are very well aware, the media makes things up, and/or mis-quotes constantly, not to mention GM's changing their minds...............any and all players can be traded, at any time, for various reasons, "IF" the deal is right.

 

The reasons Vancouver might trade Miller are/could be entirely different than Columbus's reasons..............This may not be the trade that Columbus likes, but it could be...........

 

There is a reason Miller's value is high............he is good, it is the reason Vancouver should keep him, and the reason Columbus should acquire him.................please feel free to disagree with the value of a trade...........but don't hang on every word as gospel.

 

Personally, I think Columbus "Could" be interested. The question is what do we offer and what will Columbus take?

 

Personally.............my offer would be

 

2022-1st (6th OA) + Roslovic + Ceulemans

 

for

 

Miller + 2022-1st 15th OA

 

 

That still gives Columbus 2 very good picks, which one could be used to pick a Ceulemans  (25th OA in 2021) replacement

 

 

Miller + 2022-1st (12th OA) + 20221st (15th OA)        >         2022-1st (6th OA) + Roslovic + 2022-1st (12th OA)

 

Now, I will quantify that, by saying "IF" Columbus sees Miller playing well into his mid 30's, then sure they should go for it, if not, 6th OA picks, are traditionally very good players, "Most" of the time.......but not always. there is always risks to a trade...............and it will be done "IF" both GM's can accept the risk.

Edited May 19, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[wildcam]

2 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

Malkin could be done. A 1-2 punch of Crosby and Miller at C.  Of course, PIT will need a RD, especially if they don't resign Letang and lose Marino.

 

to PIT:  Miller and Myers

to VAN:  Marino and Carter

 

Carter fills that #3C spot very nicely IMO.  He's old, but he's still got lots of game, and he's not expensive.

 

 

Your trading Miller and Myers ----Marino and Carter?? Big no

Carter 37 is old way way too old..New management want to bring in guys under 27..

Marino ---- Garland

Miller -- ...LA Kings , NYR --  Colorado, Columbus,  have lots of prospectsYoung RD under 23 -- Top 9 roster player-- 1st rounder -- 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

@mll

 

I value your contribution, and all, but you pull quotes out of the air constantly, and my objection is, that according to all these GM's, there will never be another trade again, ever.

 

Yes, all trades have to make sense, and yes all teams want to keep their valued prospects and picks, but every year, players young and old are moved, during the summer, beginning of season, mid season and TDL and the draft, there is never one time when players will not be traded..............

 

GM's say alot of things for a lot of reasons, and they do not always share them, and as you are very well aware, the media makes things up, and/or mis-quotes constantly, not to mention GM's changing their minds...............any and all players can be traded, at any time, for various reasons, "IF" the deal is right.

 

The reasons Vancouver might trade Miller are/could be entirely different than Columbus's reasons..............This may not be the trade that Columbus likes, but it could be...........

 

There is a reason Miller's value is high............he is good, it is the reason Vancouver should keep him, and the reason Columbus should acquire him.................please feel free to disagree with the value of a trade...........but don't hang on every word as gospel.

 

Personally, I think Columbus "Could" be interested. The question is what do we offer and what will Columbus take?

 

Personally.............my offer would be

 

2022-1st (6th OA) + Roslovic + Ceulemans

 

for

 

Miller + 2022-1st 15th OA

 

 

That still gives Columbus 2 very good picks, which one could be used to pick a Ceulemans  (25th OA in 2021) replacement

 

 

Miller + 2022-1st (12th OA) + 20221st (15th OA)        >         2022-1st (6th OA) + Roslovic + 2022-1st (12th OA)

 

Now, I will quantify that, by saying "IF" Columbus sees Miller playing well into his mid 30's, then sure they should go for it, if not, 6th OA picks, are traditionally very good players, "Most" of the time.......but not always. there is always risks to a trade...............and it will be done "IF" both GM's can accept the risk.

Well said.   Only thing i'd add to this of course they are also playing a game.   You don't put your cards on the table and tell the media these are my cards.   Who knows what's really said behind closed doors and on the phone - the only time i ever remember that becoming somewhat public was during Burke's and Lowes 2ish year feud, and the media lapped that up. 

[mll]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well said.   Only thing i'd add to this of course they are also playing a game.   You don't put your cards on the table and tell the media these are my cards.   Who knows what's really said behind closed doors and on the phone - the only time i ever remember that becoming somewhat public was during Burke's and Lowes 2ish year feud, and the media lapped that up. 

Social media has changed how teams communicate.  Bogus answers or false quotes can be so easily relayed.  There's also the development of technology where media can get a quick answer by text.  Fans are now asking questions to beat writers via social media who will in turn ask the team for an answer.  Communication, fan interaction and the exchange of information is very different from a few years ago.  Salary cap information is now readily available.  Clips of interviews are now easily accessible.  Some GMs are even doing podcasts.  

 

There's a pretty wide gap between disclosing everything they are talking about vs communicating a direction.  When Rutherford says he wants to create cap space, get younger and faster.  He's not disclosing who he is trading, who he is targeting but he is giving a direction for the team.  Or do you really think he isn't being truthful.  

 

Just like Kekaleinen is giving a direction when he says he's not going to use his 1st rounders for 30 year olds but could maybe use them on guys who will be there for 10 years.  Offer up Podkolzin and they would certainly listen.  Trades have to also fit with what the other team is trying to achieve.  

 

Vancouver is trying to get younger.  It feels highly unlikely that they would trade Podkolzin and their 1st rounder for a 30 year old, don't you agree?  Using Pearson in a trade to fill a need is very different than using Podkolzin.  So why would it be any different for CBJ - they too have a plan to turn themselves into contenders. 

 

CBJ is a team in a re-set as Kekaleinen calls it.  Their needs are not the same as a team that is in their win now window.   A 1st round pick has little value to Tampa who has been giving them up to improve their roster.  Arizona is tanking and trying to hoard draft picks - wouldn't you agree that they are significantly less likely to use their 1st in a trade?   Teams have different objectives and needs.  For a trade to happen it also have to make sense for the other side and not just Vancouver.

CBJ are actually looking to make a trade and could target more veteran players.  They have a surplus of Fs and want to create room for their high end players.  They also want to address the need for more toughness and possibly add someone that can fight and protect their young talent.  Texier (22) is apparently available for example just as Roslovic (25) but not Kent Johnsson or Sillinger who are considered building blocks. 

 

For trades to happen they have to fill a need for both sides  - there are 2 GMs in the discussion, both with a plan and trying to improve their teams. 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by mll

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, mll said:

Social media has changed how teams communicate.  Bogus answers or false quotes can be so easily relayed.  There's also the development of technology where media can get a quick answer by text.  Fans are now asking questions to beat writers via social media who will in turn ask the team for an answer.  Communication, fan interaction and the exchange of information is very different from a few years ago.  Salary cap information is now readily available.  Clips of interviews are now easily accessible.  Some GMs are even doing podcasts.  

 

There's a pretty wide gap between disclosing everything they are talking about vs communicating a direction.  When Rutherford says he wants to create cap space, get younger and faster.  He's not disclosing who he is trading, who he is targeting but he is giving a direction for the team.  Or do you really think he isn't being truthful.  

 

Just like Kekaleinen is giving a direction when he says he's not going to use his 1st rounders for 30 year olds but could maybe use them on guys who will be there for 10 years.  Offer up Podkolzin and they would certainly listen.  Trades have to also fit with what the other team is trying to achieve.  

 

Vancouver is trying to get younger.  It feels highly unlikely that they would trade Podkolzin and their 1st rounder for a 30 year old, don't you agree?  Using Pearson in a trade to fill a need is very different than using Podkolzin.  So why would it be any different for CBJ - they too have a plan to turn themselves into contenders. 

 

CBJ is a team in a re-set as Kekaleinen calls it.  Their needs are not the same as a team that is in their win now window.   A 1st round pick has little value to Tampa who has been giving them up to improve their roster.  Arizona is tanking and trying to hoard draft picks - wouldn't you agree that they are significantly less likely to use their 1st in a trade?   Teams have different objectives and needs.  For a trade to happen it also have to make sense for the other side and not just Vancouver.

CBJ are actually looking to make a trade and could target more veteran players.  They have a surplus of Fs and want to create room for their high end players.  They also want to address the need for more toughness and possibly add someone that can fight and protect their young talent.  Texier (22) is apparently available for example just as Roslovic (25) but not Kent Johnsson or Sillinger who are considered building blocks. 

 

For trades to happen they have to fill a need for both sides  - there are 2 GMs in the discussion, both with a plan and trying to improve their teams. 

 

Absolutely.   That said we just went through 8 years of JB, he'd say one thing, and do something completely different.   The OJ draft is a perfect example of this - you could say he was talking about PLD or MT pre-draft for a month...and then picked OJ.   That's an example of holding your cards i suppose as well.    Mis direction of a fanbase does happen.    IF we re-sign Miller how does that fit in with what they've said?   Other then Allvin "not wanting to lose free agents for nothing"...   And of course things never go quite the way they communicate.    If the Canucks stay the course, end up first or second in our division and win a couple rounds,  wouldn't they consider a lane change?   As in locking the core in and adding vet support to plug holes .... get they don't have the assets for that right now other then picks.    But it is a possibility.    All they've done so far is one minor move in Dermott (fits the younger theme).    If 26 is the age they want and younger, plus finding guys that can play on the same line for a very long time - Horvat, Miller both seem likely trade candidates ..

 

Edit:  Some might look at what COL did and think that's a good idea.   Could trade Miller and ? Brock?  Horvat? Won't work in my opinion.  We don't have a Rantanen coming up, or a Girard ... and losing that type of center depth will toast our team and scuttle EP.    Don't you think?  Miller is the only guy that makes sense.   And don't think it will be enough.   I'd be surprised if they don't come to the same conclusion and just do very little next season.   Other then along the edges.   The decisions will be made during next years TDL.    A few years of tanking might be the best medicine i don't know.     To me it's like using your credit card to pay a bill by trading Miller just to get a RHD and Horvat just to get younger.   Well not really, more like hitting on a 16 in blackjack.   

 

There is another option.   That's praying that JR and Allvin can channel their inner Quin.   For this team to succeed during QHs and Demko's contracts, we'd need a minor miracle - a second rounder for a Lumme - and a Butcher for a Courtnall, Ronning, Momesso, and that's why these proposals exist.   You just never do know no matter what a GM or coach or player says on social media or in a clip. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by IBatch

[HKSR]

11 hours ago, mll said:

Social media has changed how teams communicate.  Bogus answers or false quotes can be so easily relayed.  There's also the development of technology where media can get a quick answer by text.  Fans are now asking questions to beat writers via social media who will in turn ask the team for an answer.  Communication, fan interaction and the exchange of information is very different from a few years ago.  Salary cap information is now readily available.  Clips of interviews are now easily accessible.  Some GMs are even doing podcasts.  

 

There's a pretty wide gap between disclosing everything they are talking about vs communicating a direction.  When Rutherford says he wants to create cap space, get younger and faster.  He's not disclosing who he is trading, who he is targeting but he is giving a direction for the team.  Or do you really think he isn't being truthful.  

 

Just like Kekaleinen is giving a direction when he says he's not going to use his 1st rounders for 30 year olds but could maybe use them on guys who will be there for 10 years.  Offer up Podkolzin and they would certainly listen.  Trades have to also fit with what the other team is trying to achieve.  

 

Vancouver is trying to get younger.  It feels highly unlikely that they would trade Podkolzin and their 1st rounder for a 30 year old, don't you agree?  Using Pearson in a trade to fill a need is very different than using Podkolzin.  So why would it be any different for CBJ - they too have a plan to turn themselves into contenders. 

 

CBJ is a team in a re-set as Kekaleinen calls it.  Their needs are not the same as a team that is in their win now window.   A 1st round pick has little value to Tampa who has been giving them up to improve their roster.  Arizona is tanking and trying to hoard draft picks - wouldn't you agree that they are significantly less likely to use their 1st in a trade?   Teams have different objectives and needs.  For a trade to happen it also have to make sense for the other side and not just Vancouver.

CBJ are actually looking to make a trade and could target more veteran players.  They have a surplus of Fs and want to create room for their high end players.  They also want to address the need for more toughness and possibly add someone that can fight and protect their young talent.  Texier (22) is apparently available for example just as Roslovic (25) but not Kent Johnsson or Sillinger who are considered building blocks. 

 

For trades to happen they have to fill a need for both sides  - there are 2 GMs in the discussion, both with a plan and trying to improve their teams. 

 

First of all... social media for the truth?  Oh boy...   I won't even go there.

 

But back to hockey... if Miller could land us Roslovic, Peeke, and their 2nd, I think that would 'peak' my curiosity.

[mll]

21 minutes ago, HKSR said:

First of all... social media for the truth?  Oh boy...   I won't even go there.

 

But back to hockey... if Miller could land us Roslovic, Peeke, and their 2nd, I think that would 'peak' my curiosity.

 

Not saying that.  

 

Teams are using social media to communicate.  Vancouver has their own instagram, twitter, youtube account where they post quotes and clips - these can be easily found.  It's not one line somewhere buried in a newspaper.  There's far more interaction and active communication.  Quotes by the team don't go away anymore.  

 

It's also a much quicker communication with smartphones where GMs can continue to work when they commute - they are connected during all those hours on the plane and can answer texts and emails.  No longer a desktop and a phone line or snail mail.  Information circulates more quickly and efficiently.  A reporter has a quick question and it's a text that the GM can answer back quickly.

 

[HKSR]

6 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Not saying that.  

 

Teams are using social media to communicate.  Vancouver has their own instagram, twitter, youtube account where they post quotes and clips - these can be easily found.  It's not one line somewhere buried in a newspaper.  There's far more interaction and active communication.  Quotes by the team don't go away anymore.  

 

It's also a much quicker communication with smartphones where GMs can continue to work when they commute - they are connected during all those hours on the plane and can answer texts and emails.  No longer a desktop and a phone line or snail mail.  Information circulates more quickly and efficiently.  A reporter has a quick question and it's a text that the GM can answer back quickly.

 

They also use media to negotiate, to deceive, to light fires under players' butts, to redirect, to praise, etc.  These are professional businessmen that know how to get what they want.  They wouldn't be in the jobs they are in unless they did.  To take quotes from social media as absolute is naive and ignorant.  The truth will always lie somewhere in the grey area.  You couldn't possibly tell me that a GM said one thing one day, and made a move completely in the opposite direction the next?

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by HKSR

[mll]

Just now, HKSR said:

They also use media to negotiate, to light fires under players' butts, to redirect, to praise, etc.  These are professional businessmen that know how to get what they want.  They wouldn't be in the jobs they are in unless they did.  To take quotes from social media as absolute is naive and ignorant.  The truth will always lie somewhere in the grey area.  You couldn't possibly tell me that a GM said one thing one day, and made a move completely in the opposite direction the next?

So Rutherford is just lying out of his teeth when he talks of the direction of the team?  You really can't see the difference between communicating with players/agents through social media or testing the waters on a move vs communicating a plan/a direction to the fanbase?

 

[HKSR]

4 minutes ago, mll said:

So Rutherford is just lying out of his teeth when he talks of the direction of the team?  You really can't see the difference between communicating with players/agents through social media or testing the waters on a move vs communicating a plan/a direction to the fanbase?

 

What did GMJB say that was ANY different than Rutherford?  Then tell me what he did in terms of trades and free agent signings.

[hammertime]

17 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

@mll

I value your contribution, and all, but you pull quotes out of the air constantly, and my objection is, that according to all these GM's, there will never be another trade again, ever.

 

 

Holy thanks someone had to say it. 

[mll]

24 minutes ago, HKSR said:

What did GMJB say that was ANY different than Rutherford?  Then tell me what he did in terms of trades and free agent signings.

Benning was a girouette - he changed his mind with the wind.   As for Rutherford - have to see.  Right now there's nothing to go by.  Have to compare what they say to what they do to get a sense of where they stand.  

[mll]

16 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Holy thanks someone had to say it. 

Asked whether he would use his 1st round picks in a trade:

 

“We’ve always said we’re not going to use those picks for immediate help,” Kekalainen said. “It would have to be something that makes sense for the foreseeable future. We’re not doing anything to get a 30-year-old with those picks, put it that way. But if there’s a right deal to be made for a guy who’s going to be with us for 10 years, I’m not going to rule anything out.”

 

Free of you to think this actually means that he can't wait to give up his 1st round pick and the players he says they are building around for Miller.  

[HKSR]

6 minutes ago, mll said:

Benning was a girouette - he changed his mind with the wind.   As for Rutherford - have to see.  Right now there's nothing to go by.  Have to compare what they say to what they do to get a sense of where they stand.  

Exactly.  Take what these guys say with a grain of salt.  There's likely plenty of other GMJBs in the past if we all dig hard enough. 

[Hairy Kneel]

Columbus was 13th in scoring during the regular season,  I think they would trade for some scoring help.

[IBatch]

On 5/20/2022 at 11:06 AM, HKSR said:

First of all... social media for the truth?  Oh boy...   I won't even go there.

 

But back to hockey... if Miller could land us Roslovic, Peeke, and their 2nd, I think that would 'peak' my curiosity.

No doubt.   Not a source is it.    Some people see Friedman's 31 thoughts and think it's gospel too (which of course it is not).    We have at very best - a glimpse into what's going on.   GMs say things all the time and then don't do what they say - that's playing 3D chess.   I'm sure some love the "prize fight" post and pre-game stuff, personally i think it's more then a little silly really.    Only thing i really loved was  JT Millers post game comment about " maybe we should wear the black (skate) every home game" .... doesn't mean it's going to happen - but it sure created a lot of buzz on this site.    Because - well they are just so much better lol.   

[GB5]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:56 PM, Angry Goose said:

but would u do Miller for Johnson/12OA?

I am quite high on Johnson, I think he is a terrific player.

I would do this.

[flickyoursedin]

Johnson is probably untouchable as well. No mention of Adam Boqvist as a target young RHD with nice potential. I’d do JT Miller with an extension for Texier, Boqvist and the 12th overall. Then draft Mintyukov or Korchinski at 12 whichever guy is left.