(Discussion & Proposal) Go All In for next season, while not having cap trouble afterwards

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, mll said:

Kaprizov, Fiala and Zuccarello are 5'10 and under and all 3 are over ppg.  He's not displacing Kaprizov or Zuccarello on their top line.

 

On their 2nd line Boldy is 0.8ppg with 15 goals - just 2 less than Garland when he only made the team in January.  Fiala 9th at EV and that's with Freddy Gaudreau as his C and mostly Rask to start the season before Boldy made the team in January.  Foligno and Greenway play on their shutdown line and bring considerable size while being elite defensively.  Not a spot for Garland.

 

 

Who cares about MIN?   You could look around the league and try to find more guys - who played the same amount of time and scored more 5 x 5, drew more penalties and was plus 18 (didn't he lead the team in that category for forwards ... not sure but he was for most of the season).... he's not a third pairing player.    St. Louis doesn't have top tier talent aside from maybe O'Reilly.   For sure they are deep. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by IBatch

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, mll said:

Kaprizov, Fiala and Zuccarello are 5'10 and under and all 3 are over ppg.  He's not displacing Kaprizov or Zuccarello on their top line.

 

On their 2nd line Boldy is 0.8ppg with 15 goals - just 2 less than Garland when he only made the team in January.  Fiala 9th at EV and that's with Freddy Gaudreau as his C and mostly Rask to start the season before Boldy made the team in January.  Foligno and Greenway play on their shutdown line and bring considerable size while being elite defensively.  Not a spot for Garland.

 

 

Sure but that doesn't mean he isn't a good fit elsewhere. 

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Sure but that doesn't mean he isn't a good fit elsewhere. 

Of course he is.   ARI fans hated losing him in that trade.   All he's done, at every single level is prove everyone wrong.   He's got some Martin St. Louis and Theo Fleury in him.   Led the entire CHL in scoring and still got passed on... he's got a gigantic chip on his shoulder.   Would love to see what he could do with actual PP time.   He's also the reason we can trade Brock and not worry about it too much.   Cost controlled for four more years in the age group that JR likes.    If we are going to pick on size well... that's another story and one i get.   Scotty Walker and Ronning were tiny guys too.   So is QHs.  I doubt he's more then 5'9".

Edited May 20, 2022 by IBatch

[mll]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Who cares about MIN?   You could look around the league and try to find more guys - who played the same amount of time and scored more 5 x 5, drew more penalties and was plus 18 (didn't he lead the team in that category for forwards ... not sure but he was for most of the season).... he's not a third pairing player.    St. Louis doesn't have top tier talent aside from maybe O'Reilly.   For sure they are deep. 

Garland is 0.68 ppg.  They have 8 forwards producing at a better pace than that.

 

Armstrong says he prefers being deep than having just a couple of elite players that take on a large portion of the cap.  

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, mll said:

Garland is 0.68 ppg.  They have 8 forwards producing at a better pace than that.

 

Armstrong says he prefers being deep than having just a couple of elite players that take on a large portion of the cap.  

So you found one team.   How many more?  Like i said - they don't have the top tier talent, and can afford to have a deep team so yes we are saying the same thing.    Any others?  How does he stack up with your favourite team MIN? 

[Alflives]

27 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Of course he is.   ARI fans hated losing him in that trade.   All he's done, at every single level is prove everyone wrong.   He's got some Martin St. Louis and Theo Fleury in him.   Led the entire CHL in scoring and still got passed on... he's got a gigantic chip on his shoulder.   Would love to see what he could do with actual PP time.   He's also the reason we can trade Brock and not worry about it too much.   Cost controlled for four more years in the age group that JR likes.    If we are going to pick on size well... that's another story and one i get.   Scotty Walker and Ronning were tiny guys too.   So is QHs.  I doubt he's more then 5'9".

Garland back to the Coyotes (he's signed now; something they would have struggled to accomplish) for Geunther?  Or do they have a center or D prospect we could get?

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Garland back to the Coyotes (he's signed now; something they would have struggled to accomplish) for Geunther?  Or do they have a center or D prospect we could get?

Again why would we trade Garland?   Unless he's part of a very good deal i just don't see him as a cap dump.   We could do a lot worse for 4.8ish or whatever it is exactly.    Especially with Brock up in the air as well.   Maybe management sees it differently but i like the kid.   I think he's going to add an extra gear yet. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by IBatch

[mll]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

So you found one team.   How many more?  Like i said - they don't have the top tier talent, and can afford to have a deep team so yes we are saying the same thing.    Any others?  How does he stack up with your favourite team MIN? 

Wouldn't have made the Wild's top-9.  Zuccarello, Fiala and Kaprizov are all over ppg.  Boldy is 0.85ppg.  Foligno and Greenway are high end shutdown players that play a heavy game.   Kaprizov 4th at EV.  Fiala 9th. 

 

COL -  Landeskog/Rantanen  Nishushkin/Burakovsky or Lehkonen

TBL - Stamkos/Kucherov  Palat/Killorn

WSH - Ovi/Wilson Oshie/Mantha    McLellan believes in size.  Thinks it was one of the 5 key reasons they won the Cup.

FLA - Verhaeghe/Giroux Huberdeau/Duclair  - Reinhart is on their 3rd line

BOS - Marchand/DeBrusk Hall/Pastrnak

CGY - Tkachuk/Gaudreau  Mangiapane/Coleman - Toffoli on their 3rd line

 

Should have had a shot on these teams:

NYR -  Kreider/Vatrano   Panarin/Copp

EDM - Kane/Hyman  Draisaitl/?    - Yamamoto being the competition

DAL -   Robertson/Pavelski  Seguin/?

CAR -  Svechnikog/Jarvis  Teravainen/  - Domi or Niederreiter being the competition

PIT -  Guentzel/Heinen   Zucker/Kapanen  

 

NSH still in a competitive rebuild and thought they did better than hoped just by qualifying.  LAK want to add a high end goal scorer.

 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, mll said:

Wouldn't have made the Wild's top-9.  Zuccarello, Fiala and Kaprizov are all over ppg.  Boldy is 0.85ppg.  Foligno and Greenway are high end shutdown players that play a heavy game.   Kaprizov 4th at EV.  Fiala 9th. 

 

COL -  Landeskog/Rantanen  Nishushkin/Burakovsky or Lehkonen

TBL - Stamkos/Kucherov  Palat/Killorn

WSH - Ovi/Wilson Oshie/Mantha    McLellan believes in size.  Thinks it was one of the 5 key reasons they won the Cup.

FLA - Verhaeghe/Giroux Huberdeau/Duclair  - Reinhart is on their 3rd line

BOS - Marchand/DeBrusk Hall/Pastrnak

CGY - Tkachuk/Gaudreau  Mangiapane/Coleman - Toffoli on their 3rd line

 

Should have had a shot on these teams:

NYR -  Kreider/Vatrano   Panarin/Copp

EDM - Kane/Hyman  Draisaitl/?    - Yamamoto being the competition

DAL -   Robertson/Pavelski  Seguin/?

CAR -  Svechnikog/Jarvis  Teravainen/  - Domi or Niederreiter being the competition

PIT -  Guentzel/Heinen   Zucker/Kapanen  

 

NSH still in a competitive rebuild and thought they did better than hoped just by qualifying.  LAK want to add a high end goal scorer.

 

this ^ is a good list of where Garland might fit best. I'd still prefer to keep Boeser (on a good deal) right now. 

[mll]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Garland back to the Coyotes (he's signed now; something they would have struggled to accomplish) for Geunther?  Or do they have a center or D prospect we could get?

Arizona are looking to take back bad contracts to gain futures.  They don't care about icing a competitive team for now.  Armstrong admits to LeBrun that they are tanking.

[mll]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

this ^ is a good list of where Garland might fit best. I'd still prefer to keep Boeser (on a good deal) right now. 

With management so into advanced stats, I wouldn't be surprised if they analyse the best line combinations and impose them to Boudreau.  Sat Shah thinks if they get Kuzmenko they would move on from Garland.  They are apparently trying to figure out a contract with Boeser.

 

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, mll said:

With management so into advanced stats, I wouldn't be surprised if they analyse the best line combinations and impose them to Boudreau.  Sat Shah thinks if they get Kuzmenko they would move on from Garland.  They are apparently trying to figure out a contract with Boeser.

 

it makes sense to me, for a bunch of reasons. Brock has his issues but as a complimentary scoring threat he's really good. I hope they can reach a deal in the low 6's long term.

 

I can see Pits moving on from Rodrigues and Malkin won't get 9.5 if he wants to stay so there should be room for Garland there. 

[eeeeergh]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yes i remember that comment.  All Garland did was score 5 x 5 ... 52 points worth in 77 games.   That's not a third liner.   He knows it, so does the coach and so does management.   Tickling the old motivator strings by calling him out in a nice (kind of) way worked down the stretch didn't it?  49 even strength points ... where does that put him not only on our team, but with every forward?    And he did that with 16:24 of ice time as well.   That's very very decent production 5 x 5 - and he was a plus 18 AND he drew penalties.   I'd hate to see him traded.    To me he's worth a first rounder every single time.   He's also fun to watch play.  
 

Edit:  He scored as many EV assists as Kopitar and Crosby, almost one of the top 30 forwards in the league in that respect.    Almost all the forwards ahead of him, are first line players.  

Garland probably continues to go unappreciated while he's stuck on powerplay #2. Anyone actually watching the games can see how important he is in our top-6. 
 

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, mll said:

Wouldn't have made the Wild's top-9.  Zuccarello, Fiala and Kaprizov are all over ppg.  Boldy is 0.85ppg.  Foligno and Greenway are high end shutdown players that play a heavy game.   Kaprizov 4th at EV.  Fiala 9th. 

 

COL -  Landeskog/Rantanen  Nishushkin/Burakovsky or Lehkonen

TBL - Stamkos/Kucherov  Palat/Killorn

WSH - Ovi/Wilson Oshie/Mantha    McLellan believes in size.  Thinks it was one of the 5 key reasons they won the Cup.

FLA - Verhaeghe/Giroux Huberdeau/Duclair  - Reinhart is on their 3rd line

BOS - Marchand/DeBrusk Hall/Pastrnak

CGY - Tkachuk/Gaudreau  Mangiapane/Coleman - Toffoli on their 3rd line

 

Should have had a shot on these teams:

NYR -  Kreider/Vatrano   Panarin/Copp

EDM - Kane/Hyman  Draisaitl/?    - Yamamoto being the competition

DAL -   Robertson/Pavelski  Seguin/?

CAR -  Svechnikog/Jarvis  Teravainen/  - Domi or Niederreiter being the competition

PIT -  Guentzel/Heinen   Zucker/Kapanen  

 

NSH still in a competitive rebuild and thought they did better than hoped just by qualifying.  LAK want to add a high end goal scorer.

 

Your not listing all the players - but are listing contenders or good teams.   Again, Garland assisted just as well 5 x 5 as Kopitar and Crosby (tied), not like he's in bad company with 49 points is he?  How many 5 x 5 points did JT Miller get in Tampa?  Not as many granted he didn't get the same ice time either - well except for the first unit PP time.   Garland isn't part of the teams cap structure issues.   Also have to wonder how Garland would do on some of those teams - wouldn't you?   Not to mention he stacked up favourably against quite a few of those guys you've mentioned.  

  

 

In case your wondering, pure stats wise Garland was 22nd for right wingers this season.   But no - he's not a top six player.    He's 22nd on a FIRST line, and didn't get any PP time ... well scored 3 points in his 10-20 seconds to get the puck back in deep and make a play (OEL too on that front). 

 

He was also 11th in plus minus.. and thanks to his pesty/skilled play, helped draw a ton of penalties.   He's not going anywhere.   To me he's worth a mid first rounder for five years every single time. 

 

Edit:  Not too shabby for 26th (soon to be less then 30) overall paid RWs in the league.   By the time his contract is done probably close to 40.   Now one guy i absolutely love that you do too i'm sure is Hartman.   Was one of  MIN best forward's IMO in the bubble - him and Soucy were noticeable every shift.    What a season he had. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

31 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Garland probably continues to go unappreciated while he's stuck on powerplay #2. Anyone actually watching the games can see how important he is in our top-6. 
 

Sure does...  not to mention he spent significant time carrying a third line for awhile too.    Is Horvat next?   Sure scored a lot of goals - mostly at the end of the year, but also is a fixture on the first unit.    Who's plus 18 and draws more penalties?   Nobody is.   Guys a warrior.   We aren't COL and don't have the extra Stamkos/Kucherov Barkov cap help no state tax has (its like having one of those guys or two extra Palat/JT Millers .... Stamkos was offered 12 by SJ but is making the same take home pay with one extra year in TB... food for thought)....

[eeeeergh]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Your not listing all the players - but are listing contenders or good teams.   Again, Garland assisted just as well 5 x 5 as Kopitar and Crosby (tied), not like he's in bad company with 49 points is he?  How many 5 x 5 points did JT Miller get in Tampa?  Not as many granted he didn't get the same ice time either - well except for the first unit PP time.   Garland isn't part of the teams cap structure issues.   Also have to wonder how Garland would do on some of those teams - wouldn't you?   Not to mention he stacked up favourably against quite a few of those guys you've mentioned.  

  

 

In case your wondering, pure stats wise Garland was 22nd for right wingers this season.   But no - he's not a top six player.    He's 22nd on a FIRST line, and didn't get any PP time ... well scored 3 points in his 10-20 seconds to get the puck back in deep and make a play (OEL too on that front). 

 

He was also 11th in plus minus.. and thanks to his pesty/skilled play, helped draw a ton of penalties.   He's not going anywhere.   To me he's worth a mid first rounder for five years every single time. 

 

Edit:  Not too shabby for 26th (soon to be less then 30) overall paid RWs in the league.   By the time his contract is done probably close to 40.   Now one guy i absolutely love that you do too i'm sure is Hartman.   Was one of  MIN best forward's IMO in the bubble - him and Soucy were noticeable every shift.    What a season he had. 

Garland's contract only looks better and better over the next couple years as top-6 wingers get paid more, with the salary cap going up. 

Only way I see him leaving is if we get a really great return for him. I just don't see why they'd start with him - Myers and Pearson both still have *some* trade value, and combined can create an additonal 9m in cap space (bringing us to about 13m next season). If they're unable to come to a good number with Miller, that could be the move as well, which would unfortunately lead to a pretty big step back for our forward group.

13m is a lot of money to fix the right side of the defense and improve the PK, and I can see management keen on seeing what could happen next season with our current forward group. Especially b/c we've got some new names joining us that could add some firepower (Rathbone, Karlsson). 

I take their comments about zone exits as a clue that they want to see what can happen with systems improvements before any huge personnel overhauls. 

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Garland's contract only looks better and better over the next couple years as top-6 wingers get paid more, with the salary cap going up. 

Only way I see him leaving is if we get a really great return for him. I just don't see why they'd start with him - Myers and Pearson both still have *some* trade value, and combined can create an additonal 9m in cap space (bringing us to about 13m next season). If they're unable to come to a good number with Miller, that could be the move as well, which would unfortunately lead to a pretty big step back for our forward group.

13m is a lot of money to fix the right side of the defense and improve the PK, and I can see management keen on seeing what could happen next season with our current forward group. Especially b/c we've got some new names joining us that could add some firepower (Rathbone, Karlsson). 

I take their comments about zone exits as a clue that they want to see what can happen with systems improvements before any huge personnel overhauls. 

Yes.   Pearson is a perfect stopgap with trade value.   Garland both fits the age range and well, it's hard not to like the guy.   And he's not overpaid.    50ish points cost you 5 million these days like it or not.   Heck Horvat was signed years ago, his deal is almost done, and makes more.  Sure he's a center (and a good one at that) - and a key part of our leadership group.    Will people cringe when he gets a Kevin Hayes like deal?  It's coming.   As far as Myers go i hate to see him go but if that means we get a younger RHD who can score 30ish points and play decent top four then yes time to go.   

 

Edit:  This team is doesn't have much choice to take half measures past next season.   It will be telling what they decide to do. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by IBatch

[BigTramFan]

15 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes.   Pearson is a perfect stopgap with trade value.   Garland both fits the age range and well, it's hard not to like the guy.   And he's not overpaid.    50ish points cost you 5 million these days like it or not.   Heck Horvat was signed years ago, his deal is almost done, and makes more.  Sure he's a center (and a good one at that) - and a key part of our leadership group.    Will people cringe when he gets a Kevin Hayes like deal?  It's coming.   As far as Myers go i hate to see him go but if that means we get a younger RHD who can score 30ish points and play decent top four then yes time to go.   

 

Edit:  This team is doesn't have much choice to take half measures past next season.   It will be telling what they decide to do. 

All good to trade Myers, but then we only really have two top-4 Dmen (OEL & QH). So we would be looking for another two guys to complete our D.

 

It appears that JR is trying to resign Miller and Boeser, and since no one wants to trade Garland. I'm not sure how we fix the D. Pearson isn't going to get you a young Dman. Do we need to look to the UFA market for Dmen to fill the gaps until we can draft and develop some?

 

I dunno it might be possible. What about Colin Miller + Zadorov? Both can play RD, both UFA. Maybe we could sign them both to around $7m total and with Myers traded that creates enough cap space.

 

Hughes Miller

OEL Zadorov

Rathbone/Dermott/Schenn/Burroughs

[eeeeergh]

19 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

All good to trade Myers, but then we only really have two top-4 Dmen (OEL & QH). So we would be looking for another two guys to complete our D.

 

It appears that JR is trying to resign Miller and Boeser, and since no one wants to trade Garland. I'm not sure how we fix the D. Pearson isn't going to get you a young Dman. Do we need to look to the UFA market for Dmen to fill the gaps until we can draft and develop some?

 

I dunno it might be possible. What about Colin Miller + Zadorov? Both can play RD, both UFA. Maybe we could sign them both to around $7m total and with Myers traded that creates enough cap space.

 

Hughes Miller

OEL Zadorov

Rathbone/Dermott/Schenn/Burroughs

I like the Colin Miller idea a lot. I think he'll come cheap b/c he had a bad year, but he's got the skillset we're looking for. 
Zadorov probably gets overpaid, and looks better than he actually was b/c of the team he's played for. 

I can see Colin Miller getting 2.5m x 3 years, which would be great. 

[D-Money]

7 hours ago, mll said:

Garland is 0.68 ppg.  They have 8 forwards producing at a better pace than that.

 

Armstrong says he prefers being deep than having just a couple of elite players that take on a large portion of the cap.  

Garland is our 2nd best 5-on-5 scorer, and only 1 point behind the top guy (Miller). 3rd is Pettersson, who is 18 points back of him.

 

In fact, Garland is tied for 29th league-wide in 5-on-5 scoring. He’s elite. The ONLY reason he’s not a top-3 scorer on our team is he’s not on PP1.