Canucks Team Competitiveness - Playoff Musings

[NucknAsia]

Hi all! 

 

First post, and as a huge canucks fan and an avid hockey fan in general, and after watching alot of games this playoffs, I curious what fans in van think about our team competitiveness. I do hope not to rile people up but after watching most of the playoffs, I do see a major gap in our team ,"heart, desire, speed, effort" whatever you want to call it, or whatever the combination vs. the teams that seem to be moving forward. 

Obv we are not Colorado or Tampa, we don't have McDavid who has really impressively taken his game to another level where the conversations about "could be be the best ever" start to creep in. BUT, teams that are still in it just seem to have more speed, will and desire to win.

 

Everything from blocking shots, backchecking, hitting, standing up for teammates, it feels like we are lacking alot of that. I feel like I am understanding what JR and PA meant when they said we need a team that won't just make the playoffs but that can contend. Long and short of it, I think we have a soft team, physically and mentally. I believe this team has become accustomed to being "good enough" to be close, and that's all that's expected.

 

I look at players that I respect like Bo, Boeser, Myers, OEL, etc who are talented players, but I don't see the Miller or Garland fire. And watching teams who are moving forward, their best players have that fire, McDavid, Kane, Draisaitl, Mckinnon, Kadri, Stamkos, Kucherov, on and on....these guys are all raising their games, finding ways to win and I worry some of our guys have sadly become content with mediocrity. 

 

Perhaps its just the style of hockey I like but I just don't see our group as it stands being the 'core' of a cup winner. I love Miller and Garland and how they compete and I think we need more of that. Miller would make sense to move, but personally, I would rather see Horvat and Boeser moved instead, and no slight on them I just think they may have become accustomed to being 'good enough'. And by that I mean, hey they put up decent numbers, that's their job! I am sure many might say that...but there's something "more" they seem to lack, that extra push, that extra want.....

Anyways, curious if others see the same thing I do...watching the canucks regularly for the last few years, I just don't see the right mix to be a contender within the core. To me the core is really, QH, TD, EP, VP, I think Boeser is not a core player, I think Bo is about to age out, Miller depending on contract is core...but I think an expectation that some of these guys are going to be part of a cup run, is unlikely and if we don't move them we may be "middling" for a very long time.

 

Happy to hear thoughts! GCG! 

[King Loui]

No question, we lack intensity.  The core is bland, Boeser, Horvat, Hughes, Pettersson are all pretty monotone and mundane.

[NucknAsia]

9 minutes ago, King Loui said:

No question, we lack intensity.  The core is bland, Boeser, Horvat, Hughes, Pettersson are all pretty monotone and mundane.

I think Petey and Quinn are so exceptional at what they do, and compete so hard for their size, there is really very little we can criticize. Where I see issues is when you have good but not "ELITE" players like Horvat and Boeser, both big boys, who need to level up their physicality and compete and don't. To me they play like they are 'Elite" players when they are good players but are complementary. Those are the players who must fight harder and do the things like block shots, like throw the hit, be the first man into a scrum, show they want it. That's where the difference happens, its those good players who can be great all around by competing harder. Sadly, I just don't see it with them. Again, there is nuance, I am not saying they don't compete, I just don't see them having the next level or gear that we need.

 

Imagine if those two competed like Kadri or Marchand (ex the shenanigans)....we just don't see that.

 

Basically, if they are to be part of the core, they need to show more, they need to compete harder. Given their ages, its likely, they are what they are now....and if that's the case, we should be moving them.

Edited May 25, 2022 by NucknAsia

[-AJ-]

What were your thoughts during the 2020 playoffs on guys like Bo, Petey, and Hughes?

[King Loui]

3 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

What were your thoughts during the 2020 playoffs on guys like Bo, Petey, and Hughes?

That playoffs wasn't real playoff hockey.  No fans, no emotion, little physicality 

Edited May 25, 2022 by King Loui

[Googlie]

30 minutes ago, King Loui said:

That playoffs wasn't real playoff hockey.  No fans, no emotion, little physicality 

I'm pretty sure that opinion isn't shared by the Minnesota, St Louis and Vegas teams that we played

[mll]

3 hours ago, Googlie said:

I'm pretty sure that opinion isn't shared by the Minnesota, St Louis and Vegas teams that we played

Minnesota and St Louis would probably agree that it wasn't playoff hockey.  

 

Quite a few teams didn't think it was because the environment was so unusual.  The more physical teams couldn't feed on the crowd energy as there was none.  Not every player can do as well in a such a muted setting.  It was also still early in the pandemic and not every player could just easily leave their families behind.

 

The Wild had so many vets voting against the return to play that Guerin had to address the room ahead of the bubble to remind them that they are going there to win.  Evason also felt that it became a special teams battle after game 1 and talked of how they lost guys in the rotation as they could never get going at 5v5.  They averaged only 36 minutes at 5v5 / more than a period of hockey was on special teams.  Vancouver was the 2nd best PP that season and had a strong PK.  The Wild were terrible on special teams - even worse once Evason took over because he changed up roles and they never really found their stride. 

 

Armstrong stated that Covid impacted his team's performance.  He talked of how 20% of their roster caught Covid with all having symptoms including some with significant weight lost.  Berube admitted that some key players were still trying to recover and were not at 100%.  Armstrong also said that players were distracted over concerns for their families.  

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by mll

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, King Loui said:

That playoffs wasn't real playoff hockey.  No fans, no emotion, little physicality 

Lol...not true.   It was intense.  MIN series was intense as was St. Louis.   Vegas was cringe worthy.   But still exciting.  

[EdgarM]

Been saying this for ever, our core players have had the same culture for decades. The "gentlemanly" play have been passed on down from Captain to Captain and leaders to leaders. We are seeing a difference(i.e. Garland,Miller) because they do not come from the same. 

I believe the last coaches carried the same philosophy as well. 

This past season looked like what a real NHL team should look like and it was definitely a sight for sore eyes. 

I believe that the management see this and will make changes accordingly. 

If players like Bo/Boeser need to go, then so be it.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

Been saying this for ever, our core players have had the same culture for decades. The "gentlemanly" play have been passed on down from Captain to Captain and leaders to leaders. We are seeing a difference(i.e. Garland,Miller) because they do not come from the same. 

I believe the last coaches carried the same philosophy as well. 

This past season looked like what a real NHL team should look like and it was definitely a sight for sore eyes. 

I believe that the management see this and will make changes accordingly. 

If players like Bo/Boeser need to go, then so be it.

 

Acceptance is easier.   Took me forever to accept that the league's direction.     No power forwards anymore.   No enforcers.   Almost no toughness like anyone after maybe 1985 grew up with.   Leagues just tame now.   This team we have now?  2011 team would have rolled right over it in the alley as well.   Which says a lot. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by IBatch

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Meh.   It's also a generational thing.   You won't see a Summit series or an 87 Canada Cup or a punch up in Piestany ever again.    Do you really believe that this core is "tougher" then the 2011 one?  I don't.    But i do agree that things have just changed.   A lot.    Miller hasn't even had a real fight with us.   Last team we had the was actually tough was during the Keenan era. 

WCE had some decent toughness with Jovo, Bert and May.  They sure as hell stood up for each other.

[RU SERIOUS]

I think most NORMAL Canucks fans who are still not under the effects of Uncle Jim Kool-Aid will agree completely with your assessment of this team.    We are still a kind of "country-Club" destination in the league - as Torts very well stated.  Our team has far too many, slow, unmotivated finesse type soft floaters to allow this team to push deeply in the playoffs 

 This team is nowhere near being a contender and lacks most the attributes that define champions and why there is still alot of major changes required on this team.   Unfortunately due to the terrible "ALL-IN" decisions uncle Jim made (in a last ditch effort to save his job) he's hog-tied JR & Co. for a few years with bad and long term contracts, so the purge will take 2-3 more years.   So be patient and lets all hold hope that the changes JR makes will produce real results in 4-5 years. 

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

WCE had some decent toughness with Jovo, Bert and May.  They sure as hell stood up for each other.

Yes and their D was tiny compared to the early 90's.   Bert lol.   Sure he was big but he wasn't scary.   May was a below average fighter of his era.   Jovo ... well like i said - the last really tough teams we had - were during the Keenan era.  

[King Heffy]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes and their D was tiny compared to the early 90's.   Bert lol.   Sure he was big but he wasn't scary.   May was a below average fighter of his era.   Jovo ... well like i said - the last really tough teams we had - were during the Keenan era.  

Ohlund and Allen weren't exactly small.  Bottom line is they wouldn't back down and had each other's backs.

 

[Ghostsof1915]

We need some meat and potatoes.

The team needs some size and speed, to balance with it's skill.

The Canucks need to be able to dictate play.

[mll]

It's often over-looked but it's also about team mentality.  This is Dustin Brown when asked why he had hope for the Kings going forward.

https://mayorsmanor.com/2022/05/dustin-brown-his-future-state-of-the-la-kings/

 

It’s probably not anything on the actual hockey – like on the ice – it’s more the mentality of the team. I think that’s what’s special about teams; at least the teams I’ve been a part of. We had good teams, from a hockey standpoint, but we had elite teams from a mental standpoint. How we approached the game and how we showed a lot of positive attributes, as a group, that lend itself to getting the pieces in place. If you have that mentality, that’s what I still think is the hardest thing to get for teams.

 

Why do some teams figure out ways to win and others teams don’t? It’s just their mentality. Their group mentality is important, also individual mentality kind of permeates to the group. I think we showed a lot of – we got our asses kicked in back-to-back games. A lot of people were doubting. We just came with a business like attitude and pushed it to seven games. Fell short. but I remember my first playoff experiences, just learning how to do it. And there were a lot of guys in there that had no experience. The first game, I think we had the least amount of games, experience wise, among all the teams in the whole playoffs. So, to play in and get a seven-game series in for those guys is good. Also, just realizing how hard it is, just to win one game.

 

[Canucklehead73]

Definitely need some more grit in our lineup.

 

Not sure I would disrespect a player for not being a heavy hitter or fighting or scrumming after whistles.

 

A lot of players do not have that game style, and this is nothing new, many players over the years have had tough guys in the lineup to protect certain guys ability to play that style of play.

 

Would it be great if all our player were mean ass gritty players who could also put up huge offensive numbers? Sure! It's just not reality.

 

But I agree we could use a few more gritty guys and few less soft players.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Canucklehead73 said:

Definitely need some more grit in our lineup.

 

Not sure I would disrespect a player for not being a heavy hitter or fighting or scrumming after whistles.

 

A lot of players do not have that game style, and this is nothing new, many players over the years have had tough guys in the lineup to protect certain guys ability to play that style of play.

 

Would it be great if all our player were mean ass gritty players who could also put up huge offensive numbers? Sure! It's just not reality.

 

But I agree we could use a few more gritty guys and few less soft players.

We need out best players to be like the TBay best players, and play with character, courage, and sandpaper.  I think Petey has that in him and shows it.  Miller is clearly like that. Bo is too, in a courageous shot blocking, go to the net hard way.  Hughes, is cute and cuddly - like a teddy bear.  Great player, but he needs to add some nasty.

 

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

For people sh***ing on Horvat, he plays MVP-calibre hockey when the stakes are higher. Unfortunately, this franchise has had a small sample size of big-game hockey since he was drafted, but he was TERRIFIC in the bubble. Even in 2015 vs. Calgary (as a rookie), he showed that he had another gear. Bo is the least of our issues when it comes to winning big-game hockey. Trading him would be very regrettable. 

[Guest]

On 5/25/2022 at 12:47 AM, mll said:

Minnesota and St Louis would probably agree that it wasn't playoff hockey.  

 

Quite a few teams didn't think it was because the environment was so unusual.  The more physical teams couldn't feed on the crowd energy as there was none.  Not every player can do as well in a such a muted setting.  It was also still early in the pandemic and not every player could just easily leave their families behind.

 

The Wild had so many vets voting against the return to play that Guerin had to address the room ahead of the bubble to remind them that they are going there to win.  Evason also felt that it became a special teams battle after game 1 and talked of how they lost guys in the rotation as they could never get going at 5v5.  They averaged only 36 minutes at 5v5 / more than a period of hockey was on special teams.  Vancouver was the 2nd best PP that season and had a strong PK.  The Wild were terrible on special teams - even worse once Evason took over because he changed up roles and they never really found their stride. 

 

Armstrong stated that Covid impacted his team's performance.  He talked of how 20% of their roster caught Covid with all having symptoms including some with significant weight lost.  Berube admitted that some key players were still trying to recover and were not at 100%.  Armstrong also said that players were distracted over concerns for their families.  

 

You can make all those excuses both ways. 

 

I saw the same annoying as hell Hartman and Perron as we did this year.  

 

 

To answer OP's question: I thought that our intensity was decent throughout the year. The intensity that you're seeing now has been getting ramped up since regular season started and I have no doubt that our team would've been doing the same had we made the playoffs and made it through the first round. 

I have long had an issue with the lack of physicality in our lineup though. Boeser and Bo are just way too nice.