Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

B.C. to decriminalize small amounts of ‘hard’ drugs – a North American first


nuckin_futz

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, eeeeergh said:

Legalization absolutely makes it easier to buy - I've never bought something like MDMA in my life, I would have no idea who to talk to or where to start. If there was a clinic that I could walk into and get it for free, that would certainly make it easier. The "legalize all drugs" people have to argue for making it all free because if they don't, all the arguments about organized crime, quality, etc. fall apart, b/c someone will still offer street versions that are cheaper and lower quality. 

"Getting the supply under control makes it harder for kids to access it" - how do you figure? Its dead easy to access prescription drugs like Adderall, and age restricted substances like alcohol - you just go to someone you know who's older than you and legally allowed to buy it (alcohol) or somebody you know who gets an adderall prescription and buy some off them. Your average 14 year old does not know where to go get illegal MDMA, but sure has a lot of choices on where to get legal substances like alcohol or prescription drugs.

I can assure you that a 14 year old who is interested in trying MDMA will know where to get it, and can get it far easier than alcohol, which requires actually waiting for the buyer to go to the store and deliver the product.  It's probably easier than when I was that age and cellphones weren't something 14 year olds had.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I can assure you that a 14 year old who is interested in trying MDMA will know where to get it, and can get it far easier than alcohol, which requires actually waiting for the buyer to go to the store and deliver the product.  It's probably easier than when I was that age and cellphones weren't something 14 year olds had.

Its not a reasonable or accurate argument to try to say that legalizing will reduce use or even keep it the same. Everything we've ever legalized has resulted in increased use. Alcohol consumption is higher than during prohibition. Cannabis use is higher after legalization. 12.5% of the population currently smokes cigarettes. You really going to argue that we'd have that many people smoking cigarettes if it was illegal? 

You can assure me all you want, but the facts remain the same - there is no obvious go-to person for MDMA for the average person. There is however, an obvious go-to place to get Cannabis (a store) and alcohol (also a store) or friends who are old enough to buy it. Makes 0 sense to argue that MDMA is easier to get than alcohol too. I can literally ask anybody over the age of majority to buy alcohol for me. I don't have a single friend I could ask to go buy MDMA for me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, eeeeergh said:


You can assure me all you want, but the facts remain the same - there is no obvious go-to person for MDMA for the average person. There is however, an obvious go-to place to get Cannabis (a store) and alcohol (also a store) or friends who are old enough to buy it. Makes 0 sense to argue that MDMA is easier to get than alcohol too. I can literally ask anybody over the age of majority to buy alcohol for me. I don't have a single friend I could ask to go buy MDMA for me. 

This is because you have no interest in MDMA and don't knowingly associate with those people. Any kid who wants that stuff can get it delivered at school during their lunch break.

  • Cheers 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

This is because you have no interest in MDMA and don't knowingly associate with those people. Any kid who wants that stuff can get it delivered at school during their lunch break.

These are assertions that arent based in reality at all. Here's a breakdown of drug use among students in 2019 in Ontario (I wanted national numbers, but couldn't find them, this should suffice to make my point). 

Notice how the drugs that students use in the largest % are the legal ones? Alcohol, e-cigs, cannabis, prescription drugs, cold medicine, cigarettes.

2.3% of students trying MDMA vs 41.7% drinking alcohol doesnt seem to suggest that MDMA is easier to get than alcohol. 

image.thumb.png.565a774622a7e40889c6a0c12acdd2fe.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, eeeeergh said:

These are assertions that arent based in reality at all. Here's a breakdown of drug use among students in 2019 in Ontario (I wanted national numbers, but couldn't find them, this should suffice to make my point). 

Notice how the drugs that students use in the largest % are the legal ones? Alcohol, e-cigs, cannabis, prescription drugs, cold medicine, cigarettes.

2.3% of students trying MDMA vs 41.7% drinking alcohol doesnt seem to suggest that MDMA is easier to get than alcohol. 

image.thumb.png.565a774622a7e40889c6a0c12acdd2fe.png

Or maybe it suggests that kids may be a little smarter than we're giving them credit for regarding making better choices.  I must have been living in some alternate reality as a kid according to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Or maybe it suggests that kids may be a little smarter than we're giving them credit for regarding making better choices.  I must have been living in some alternate reality as a kid according to you.

Yeah, no, the data doesn't say that at all, thats what you want it to say. If thats what the data was suggesting, you wouldn't have 11% using prescription opioids, or 14.8% binge drinking. The reality is - all the illegal stuff is used less, and the legal stuff is used more. And as soon as illegal stuff becomes legal, it gets used more (see cannabis, alcohol, tobacco). 

Cannabis legal? Fine. Yes, it's linked to higher usage of other substances, but in and of itself, its not going to kill you. It doesn't take away your freedom of choice. But if you're going to give everyone easy access to cocaine, heroin, etc. because you want them to "do it safely" you're going to end up with a lot more people addicted because you've told them its safe to experiment in controlled conditions. The reality is - that garbage is not safe. 

If you experimented and you're all safe and happy I'm very happy for you, but I'm less happy for my friend I went to highschool with who died of a heroin overdose. Sure would be nice to try to try to keep heroin out of peoples hands instead of just going "oh well theyre gonna get it anyway, so might as well give it to them". 

Edited by eeeeergh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Yeah, no, the data doesn't say that at all, thats what you want it to say. If thats what the data was suggesting, you wouldn't have 11% using prescription opioids, or 14.8% binge drinking. The reality is - all the illegal stuff is used less, and the legal stuff is used more. And as soon as illegal stuff becomes legal, it gets used more (see cannabis, alcohol, tobacco). 

Cannabis legal? Fine. Yes, it's linked to higher usage of other substances, but in and of itself, its not going to kill you. It doesn't take away your freedom of choice. But if you're going to give everyone easy access to cocaine, heroin, etc. because you want them to "do it safely" you're going to end up with a lot more people addicted because you've told them its safe to experiment in controlled conditions. The reality is - that garbage is not safe. 

If you experimented and you're all safe and happy I'm very happy for you, but I'm less happy for my friend I went to highschool with who died of a heroin overdose. Sure would be nice to try to try to keep heroin out of peoples hands instead of just going "oh well theyre gonna get it anyway, so might as well give it to them". 

The data says literally nothing about availability, only about use.  You're also assuming that the kids answering are being honest.  Just because something's available doesn't mean people will choose to do it, or in fact know where to get it.  I have no clue what sites to go to in order to find some man on man action.  That doesn't mean it's hard to find man on man action, it simply means I'm not interested.  What we want to do is to keep the fentanyl out of the MDMA and other chemicals and have people know what the hell they're taking.

  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

The data says literally nothing about availability, only about use.  You're also assuming that the kids answering are being honest.  Just because something's available doesn't mean people will choose to do it, or in fact know where to get it.  I have no clue what sites to go to in order to find some man on man action.  That doesn't mean it's hard to find man on man action, it simply means I'm not interested.  What we want to do is to keep the fentanyl out of the MDMA and other chemicals and have people know what the hell they're taking.

The data demonstrates the link between use and availability. It's not a stretch to look at the drugs that are being used a lot more - they happen to be drugs that are either fully legal, or partially legal. Prescription opioids are more accessible than MDMA - that much is obvious. Alcohol is more accessible than both prescription opioids and MDMA, again, obvious. Everything we've legalized has resulted in increased use, so its completely reasonable to suggest that is likely to happen in this case. We literally just saw it happen with Cannabis. 

Not sure why kids would lie about using MDMA but tell the truth about abusing opioids they werent prescribed. Seems pretty safe to assume they're "generally" honest, or if they're lying, approx the same % would be lying about the other drugs too, so its kind of irrelevant.

Hardly think sexual orientation is reasonable to conflate with drug experimentation. If you were interested in man on man action, which is legal, you'd simply have to ask a friend who shares a similar interest. There would also be no risk to you of getting thrown in jail, because its legal. 

I would say the average person would probably consider the consequences of being caught with a bunch of cocaine or opioids, which is one of many reasons the substances that are current illegal are only used by a small minority of people (11.7% used an illicit drug last year), and yet, cannabis use is increasing in places where it's now been made legal. 

You want to try to keep fentanyl out of MDMA? Fine - but the only way you're going to be able to do that is if you make MDMA free for everyone and in any quantity they like so there's no reason to buy the street version anymore. And what do you propose for the people that want oxycodone, percocet, methamphetamine, crack, and heroin? You're going to give them some "safe heroin"? 

Here's the better solution if you want people to know "what they're taking". Tell them that the $&!# they're buying on the street has a high likelihood of killing them. Have everyone carry a naloxone kit so they can help if they see someone overdosing. Do everything you can to tell people that this $&!# is absolutely awful for them, and don't prosecute anyone who has a small amount (decriminalization). 

The answer is not to make highly addictive substances more accessible to the general population. You're just going to kill more people. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

We've tried that one.

Then fcking try harder. 

- Give everyone a naloxone kit
- increase penalties on traffickers
- bring back capital punishment for the people that make this stuff

Plaster it everywhere that if you're going to take MDMA, there's a good chance you're getting something that'll also kill you, so take it at your own risk. 

At a certain point, if people have been fully informed of the risks, you have to let people take that risk. If they're going to jump through every hoop imagineable, risk prison time, and still buy MDMA knowing that it could kill them if it happens to be laced with fentanyl, you have to let them take that chance.

But the solution is not to then take those substances that can kill you and just make them free and available for everyone. Giving everyone unlimited access to percocet, oxycodone, heroin, crack, etc. does not make our world any safer. It turns this stuff that is incredibly dangerous to experiment with into as socially acceptable as alcohol and cannabis. "How do we reduce use of this dangerous thing?" is the question. And "give it away to everyone, free, and easy" has to be the dumbest answer to that question every created.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Then fcking try harder. 

- Give everyone a naloxone kit
- increase penalties on traffickers
- bring back capital punishment for the people that make this stuff

Plaster it everywhere that if you're going to take MDMA, there's a good chance you're getting something that'll also kill you, so take it at your own risk. 

At a certain point, if people have been fully informed of the risks, you have to let people take that risk. If they're going to jump through every hoop imagineable, risk prison time, and still buy MDMA knowing that it could kill them if it happens to be laced with fentanyl, you have to let them take that chance.

But the solution is not to then take those substances that can kill you and just make them free and available for everyone. Giving everyone unlimited access to percocet, oxycodone, heroin, crack, etc. does not make our world any safer. It turns this stuff that is incredibly dangerous to experiment with into as socially acceptable as alcohol and cannabis. "How do we reduce use of this dangerous thing?" is the question. And "give it away to everyone, free, and easy" has to be the dumbest answer to that question every created.

Capital punishment isn't going to be a deterrent to someone who's already accepted the risk of being killed by a rival.  We tried prohibition with both alchohol and cannabis; both failed.  I get why giving free drugs isn't something you like, but there is evidence that it works:

https://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2019/01/21/switzerland-couldnt-stop-drug-users-so-it-started-supporting-them/

 

 

  • Cheers 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Capital punishment isn't going to be a deterrent to someone who's already accepted the risk of being killed by a rival.  We tried prohibition with both alchohol and cannabis; both failed.  I get why giving free drugs isn't something you like, but there is evidence that it works:

https://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2019/01/21/switzerland-couldnt-stop-drug-users-so-it-started-supporting-them/

 

 

Alcohol prohibition failed because we live in a democracy and 50% of the population wanted to keep drinking. And the consequence of this is 3 million people dying each year. We would live in a better world if it was harder to get alcohol. 
The countries where we have the lowest alcohol related deaths happen to be countries where alcohol is illegal (Middle East) - I wonder why that is? 

Switzerland is not an example that proves your point. They have not decriminalized or legalized drugs at all. What they've done is created safe injection sites where, if you're addicted, you can go to receive a limited dose of the drug. You can't walk out with any of it, to store it, or re-sell it. I'm all for safe injection sites. Even Cannabis isn't legal in switzerland, you can still get fined for possessing a small amount of it. 

As for capital punishment not being a deterrent, it almost doesn't matter. Show strength, that you're going to fight against it. Demonstrate to the population that these are bad things that we want to keep out of our society, not in it. If you want people to avoid using it, show them what happens to the criminals that are poisoning our society with those substances. Keep it on the fringes as much as possible, make it as difficult to access as you can, but don't prosecute anyone who seeks treatment, or possesses a small quantity. 

Edited by eeeeergh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Alcohol prohibition failed because we live in a democracy and 50% of the population wanted to keep drinking. And the consequence of this is 3 million people dying each year. We would live in a better world if it was harder to get alcohol. 
The countries where we have the lowest alcohol related deaths happen to be countries where alcohol is illegal (Middle East) - I wonder why that is? 

Switzerland is not an example that proves your point. They have not decriminalized or legalized drugs at all. What they've done is created safe injection sites where, if you're addicted, you can go to receive a limited dose of the drug. You can't walk out with any of it, to store it, or re-sell it. I'm all for safe injection sites. Even Cannabis isn't legal in switzerland, you can still get fined for possessing a small amount of it. 

 

Quote

People in drug treatment programs no longer need to visit a treatment center every day to receive methadone, buprenorphine or morphine. Stable patients receive take-home doses. Physicians can also write prescriptions for these same treatments. And there’s no expectation of abstinence from street drugs and no mandatory drug-screening tests.

That seems a lot like people being able to walk out with some.  I don't even want it to be a 100% free for all with free drugs for everyone, but I do support giving addicts a free, managed supply at a safe injection site.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

That seems a lot like people being able to walk out with some.  I don't even want it to be a 100% free for all with free drugs for everyone, but I do support giving addicts a free, managed supply at a safe injection site.

I'm all for a safe supply at a safe injection site thats limited to use on site.

Even this policy by switzerland is more acceptable than legalizing drugs. They're using it as a treatment for people who are addicted. An example of thoughtful harm reduction, and the use of drugs in a medical context. Personally I think its debateable if this policy is better than the alternative (considering that Switzerland still has more drug related deaths than other european countries with more punitive drug laws) but this is all still a far cry from legalizing all drugs.

You can't just walk into a store and buy MDMA, or Heroin, or Crack, or Oxycodone. Which is a good thing. My argument is against legalizing all drugs, not against harm reduction measures like safe injection sites, or limited dose prescriptions as treatment for addicts. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Pears said:

Trudeau doing all the right things lately. 

Good grief. He's never done the right things. This is from the BC government not the federal government. Learn the difference 

  • Cheers 1
  • RoughGame 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Mossberg said:

Good grief. He's never done the right things. This is from the BC government not the federal government. Learn the difference 

Yet still needed to apply through and be approved by Health Canada. Good try though. 

  • Like 1
  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...