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B.C. to decriminalize small amounts of ‘hard’ drugs – a North American first


nuckin_futz

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Yes, this is a great thing. Decriminalization is a good first step to treating actual drug addicts. If people need their stash, then let them have it, but we should also think about how to address the issues about their drug usage as well.

 

BC is actually showing that it's progressive in mindset.

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10 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

Its not a reasonable or accurate argument to try to say that legalizing will reduce use or even keep it the same. Everything we've ever legalized has resulted in increased use. Alcohol consumption is higher than during prohibition. Cannabis use is higher after legalization. 12.5% of the population currently smokes cigarettes. You really going to argue that we'd have that many people smoking cigarettes if it was illegal? 

You can assure me all you want, but the facts remain the same - there is no obvious go-to person for MDMA for the average person. There is however, an obvious go-to place to get Cannabis (a store) and alcohol (also a store) or friends who are old enough to buy it. Makes 0 sense to argue that MDMA is easier to get than alcohol too. I can literally ask anybody over the age of majority to buy alcohol for me. I don't have a single friend I could ask to go buy MDMA for me. 

I'm sorry but you're showing that you don't understand how easy it is for kids to find this kind of thing now. 

 

You're also missing the point about decriminalization/legalization, its about focusing on health resources not criminal ones. Safe use with supports available for people who need it is far better than the useless criminalized system we have now, that just helps murdering drug dealers. 

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18 hours ago, JM_ said:

 

I think we're going to have to move to a legal safe supply model to deal with the DTES issues, e.g., so this is at least a step in that direction. I hope the Libs-NDP can get that done while their agreement lasts. 

 

Been calling for that since before the fentanyl crisis. Sell it, tax it, control quality, take much of it from gangs's hands and invest the money into education and treatment. It really is the best solution. 

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11 hours ago, JM_ said:

I'm sorry but you're showing that you don't understand how easy it is for kids to find this kind of thing now. 

 

You're also missing the point about decriminalization/legalization, its about focusing on health resources not criminal ones. Safe use with supports available for people who need it is far better than the useless criminalized system we have now, that just helps murdering drug dealers. 

No, I dont think I do. Sure anyone can go to a website and find it - but for MOST kids, they do not have a friend in their immediate sphere of influence that dabbles in hard drugs. Thats evidenced by the fact that under 3% of kids dabble in substances that are fully illegal, yet more dabble in things that are just as dangerous but easier to get (prescription opioids). The website thing poses risks - you're much less likely to go to somebody you don't know because you have to wonder if it's potential entrapment, or if you might be in danger. 

The point is: legal substances ARE easier to get, and the data backs me up. Cannabis usage rose when it was legalized. Alcohol, Nicotine, and prescription opioid usage rates are all high. 

Like I said at the very beginning, I'm fine with decriminalization. However, the numbers they have decriminalized are also pretty insane. 2.5g of Heroin is like 25 doses. 

My issue is with the legalize all drugs crowd. Its idiotic, for all the reasons ive detailed in my posts that I really dont want to rehash again. 

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10 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

Been calling for that since before the fentanyl crisis. Sell it, tax it, control quality, take much of it from gangs's hands and invest the money into education and treatment. It really is the best solution. 

Sell what? MDMA? Heroin? Cocaine? At what price? cheaper than organized crime? B/c Cannabis is still a whole lot more expensive from legal sources. 

Cannabis was a primary income source for organized crime, legalizing it has done nothing to reduce organized crime even slightly. Not sure where this assumption people have comes from that if you legalize something, the organizations that sell it illegally are going to fold and disappear. 

I would gladly accept a tax increase to pay for more treatment and education, if it means that my kids cant buy cocaine and get addicted b/c a government store sold it to them. 

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5 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Sell what? MDMA? Heroin? Cocaine? At what price? cheaper than organized crime? B/c Cannabis is still a whole lot more expensive from legal sources. 

Cannabis was a primary income source for organized crime, legalizing it has done nothing to reduce organized crime even slightly. Not sure where this assumption people have comes from that if you legalize something, the organizations that sell it illegally are going to fold and disappear. 

I would gladly accept a tax increase to pay for more treatment and education, if it means that my kids cant buy cocaine and get addicted b/c a government store sold it to them. 

Kids will get crap drugs from drug dealers.  Government stores won’t sell to kids.

We need to sell all this crap in our BC liquor stores.  

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13 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

I dont think the convo should be about how bad drugs are for people. If we are going to govern their choices we should probably start with the substance sugar.

 

I want clean supply so recreational users like Jason Botchford can use if they want, and not die.

I want to reduce the profit going to crime from drugs.

 

People will not stop using drugs. Period. Why let crime get stronger off all the money they will continue to make? Legalise them all, provide clean products, use profit to educate people on the risks and to go towards healthcare support. 

 

The conversation absolutely needs to be how bad drugs are for people, and how addictive they are. Because we know from history, when we legalize something, its usage goes up. We're not talking about substances people can necessarily try once and quit. We're talking about things that can have permanent, devastating consequences, as a result of one time experimentation. 

I respect that you want a clean supply so recreational users dont have to die, but the only solution to that is distributing those drugs for free. If you're going to distribute them for free, you're going to get increased use. 

More people using cocaine or recreationally using opioids means more people getting addicted, and needing treatment. Means more people dying of overdoses, because contrary to the current narrative that seems to say the only people dying of overdose are the people who get something harmless but laced with fentanyl, theres still a lot of people dying of overdoses by their own hand (too many pills, too big a dose of heroin, etc.). 

Crime literally doesnt give a $&!# either way. They can sell cheaper to undercut government prices, like they do with cannabis, or they pivot to other things like violent kidnappings and the arms trade. We've seen this throughout history - cutting off one funding source for organized crime doesnt eliminate the organization, they just change their funding source (FARC in columbia switched to kidnappings and cocaine trade when they couldnt tax the population anymore). 

The whole "makei t clean then educate people on the risks thing" is also a pipedream. We've educated people on the risks of alcohol and tobacco, yet we have 11 million people dying every year from both of those. We've educated people that buying MDMA means they could very well be getting a lethal dose of fentanyl, yet they roll the dice anyway.

Sorry but its not a real solution. Its a fantasy created in a world of theory. 

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Just now, Alflives said:

Kids will get crap drugs from drug dealers.  Government stores won’t sell to kids.

We need to sell all this crap in our BC liquor stores.  

Government stores sell to adults -> adults sell to kids

Just like alcohol right now. 

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Just now, eeeeergh said:

Government stores sell to adults -> adults sell to kids

Just like alcohol right now. 

Taxes go to education.  How many kids smoke cigarettes?  Used to be way way more.  Kids are educated now.  So they mostly don’t smoke.  Same for hard drugs.  Sell them all in government stores.  Regulate and tax.  Heroine, Cocaine, crystal meth. Sell it all.  Make it too.  Do away with the drug trade.  If adults want to use the crap, so be it.  

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13 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Sell what? MDMA? Heroin? Cocaine? At what price? cheaper than organized crime? B/c Cannabis is still a whole lot more expensive from legal sources. 

Cannabis was a primary income source for organized crime, legalizing it has done nothing to reduce organized crime even slightly. Not sure where this assumption people have comes from that if you legalize something, the organizations that sell it illegally are going to fold and disappear. 

I would gladly accept a tax increase to pay for more treatment and education, if it means that my kids cant buy cocaine and get addicted b/c a government store sold it to them. 

It wasn't like it was going to stop overnight nor would it. It takes time. Of course legalizing one facet of their income did nothing.... I can tell you this one thing though: an abolitionist stance doesn't work. The 'war on drugs' is one of the biggest abject failures in mankind's history. 

 

MDMA? Sure. Pretty much harmless for moderate use if it is clean. Micro dosing is proving to be an effective treatment for PTSD and depression.  Hell, BC is already one of the largest producers. Heroine? I read it could save us money not dealing with all the fall out of the fentanyl crisis. Cocaine? Hell yes. People will pay more for quality. Did you know that the street price of cocaine has been one of the most constant pricing of any item in the world for decades. Of course the product gets worse and worse as inflation hits everything else.  Odd cocaine fact I wanted to share. 

 

There would have to be stringent tracking and controls obviously on most drugs. Ideally I'd say no to heroine and meth but if the goal is harm reduction and hitting crime you really can't pick and choose. 

Your kid isn't going to get addicted because it is legal. They'll have access to it all regardless if they get into 'the scene'. Trust me on that. Frankly I would be more concerned they buy some tainted product and are harmed because that is how everyone one I know who has been affected these past 10 years has been hurt. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

It wasn't like it was going to stop overnight nor would it. It takes time. Of course legalizing one facet of their income did nothing.... I can tell you this one thing though: an abolitionist stance doesn't work. The 'war on drugs' is one of the biggest abject failures in mankind's history. 

 

MDMA? Sure. Pretty much harmless for moderate use if it is clean. Micro dosing is proving to be an effective treatment for PTSD and depression.  Hell, BC is already one of the largest producers. Heroine? I read it could save us money not dealing with all the fall out of the fentanyl crisis. Cocaine? Hell yes. People will pay more for quality. Did you know that the street price of cocaine has been one of the most constant pricing of any item in the world for decades. Of course the product gets worse and worse as inflation hits everything else.  Odd cocaine fact I wanted to share. 

 

There would have to be stringent tracking and controls obviously on most drugs. Ideally I'd say no to heroine and meth but if the goal is harm reduction and hitting crime you really can't pick and choose. 

Your kid isn't going to get addicted because it is legal. They'll have access to it all regardless if they get into 'the scene'. Trust me on that. Frankly I would be more concerned they buy some tainted product and are harmed because that is how everyone one I know who has been affected these past 10 years has been hurt. 

 

"Your kid isnt going to get addicted because its legal"

Everyone who's addicted to cigarettes would disagree with you. 
So would my mum who's addicted to Benzos. 
So would everyone who ended up addicted to opioids that they were prescribed by their doctor. 

Keeping it on the fringes, illegal, keeps it out of most peoples hands. I cant believe we have to debate this, because its both proven and intuitively obvious. Illegal stuff is harder to get + carries risks, so less people take that risk. Legal stuff is easier + carries less risks, so more people buy it and use it. 

Lovely that giving out heroin to people will save us money from dealing with the fentanyl crisis, but a. who gives a $&!# about saving money and b. you're going to end up with more addicts needing treatment so how much money are you really saving? 

You have 0 shot of hitting crime, just give up on this idea entirely. Its a myth for all the reasons i mentioned in my previous post. 

I'm all for harm reduction too but every piece of data suggests legalizing means increased use, and if we're talking about substances like opioids that can kill you or get you addicted, increased use is the exact opposite of harm reduction.

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25 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Taxes go to education.  How many kids smoke cigarettes?  Used to be way way more.  Kids are educated now.  So they mostly don’t smoke.  Same for hard drugs.  Sell them all in government stores.  Regulate and tax.  Heroine, Cocaine, crystal meth. Sell it all.  Make it too.  Do away with the drug trade.  If adults want to use the crap, so be it.  

19% of people smoke by age 34, in a society where people have grown up their whole lives being "educated" on the the fact that smoking will literally kill you. Yes it was way more when doctors were literally telling you smoking was good for you, but 19% of people still doing it is a massive failure. "Education" clearly doesn't work, if you still have almost 20% of the population doing something you've told them endlessly its bad for them.

Regulation is also not simple. Go into exactly how you'll regulate. What kinds of regulations - how much are you going to sell people, how much are you going to charge. How are you going to ensure adults dont buy it and then sell it to kids. 

"If adults want to use the crap, so be it". Okay, so you're okay with people taking on the risk of dying - because they "know the risks" of using something like meth, cocaine, heroin, etc. 

Why are you not okay then with the status quo, where people know the risks of buying street drugs - that tehy might be getting a fatal dose of fentanyl? 

Technically they're educated, and they're making a decision with their own free will. Isnt it the same?

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18 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

I dont think the convo should be about how bad drugs are for people. If we are going to govern their choices we should probably start with the substance sugar.

 

I want clean supply so recreational users like Jason Botchford can use if they want, and not die.

I want to reduce the profit going to crime from drugs.

 

People will not stop using drugs. Period. Why let crime get stronger off all the money they will continue to make? Legalise them all, provide clean products, use profit to educate people on the risks and to go towards healthcare support. 

 

What makes you think a person won't die using clean heroin?

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14 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

What makes you think a person won't die using clean heroin?

First person here talking some sense, thank god. 

I'm actually blown away that people think its a good idea to get the government selling heroin, cocaine, oxycodone, percocet, etc. to anyone who wants some. 

We've lost our minds. 

One of the kids I grew up with has, as an adult, died of a heroin overdose. His gateway to heroin addiction began with the recreational use of MDMA and cocaine. 

My own mother is addicted to benzos, which began as a prescription for treating muscle spasms. Withdrawal is too severe, she cant stop using them. 

I don't care how hard it is - give the police more funding, more resources to go after traffickers. Raise my taxes by 5% if you have to. Cut off trade ties with countries from where these substances come in, and dont restore them until they crack down on exports. Give every household a naloxone kit so people can treat someone overdosing on opioids. If you're caught with hard drugs, give them mandatory treatment, just like the mental health act allows involuntary treatment of people who are a danger to themselves or others (guess what, if you have 2.5 grams of heroin on you, you are absolutely a danger to yourself). 

theres still a lot we can do. 

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10 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

First person here talking some sense, thank god. 

I'm actually blown away that people think its a good idea to get the government selling heroin, cocaine, oxycodone, percocet, etc. to anyone who wants some. 

We've lost our minds. 

I know someone who got a prescription for Percocet and ended up in Emergency the next day.  His heart almost gave out on him, they had to revive on the hospital bed.

 

I'm shocked that people don't actually believe that clean cocaine and heroin won't kill you.  That's insane...

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Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

I know someone who got a prescription for Percocet and ended up in Emergency the next day.  His heart almost gave out on him, they had to revive on the hospital bed.

 

I'm shocked that people don't actually believe that clean cocaine and heroin won't kill you.  That's insane...

I know, its wild. We really have lost our minds. 

All I can say is.. I hope that the bulk of the responses in this forum doesn't represent the will of the electorate. If it does, I hope the Queen will use her never-used power to step in and stop the madness. 

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10 hours ago, eeeeergh said:



Like I said at the very beginning, I'm fine with decriminalization. gain. 

Fine with decriminalisation.

So people can have the drugs but we want crime to profit from it?

 

Most of your points are concerned with harm when I am talking about choice. People are going to use. That will not stop.

Would you be in favour of banning sugar? I have read it is more addictive than opioids and a massive, massive affect on healthcare.

 

 

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

What makes you think a person won't die using clean heroin?

Where did I say that? my reference was to Botch and his bad coke but...

You can't be implying that there is no difference between clean product and cut with dirty supply can you?

You know, such as fentanyl. It's kinda been a big thing for a few years.

 

BTW, everything is starting to be cut with something these days...according to my nephews friend that is a lab tester.  

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