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B.C. to decriminalize small amounts of ‘hard’ drugs – a North American first


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2 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

Fine with decriminalisation.

So people can have the drugs but we want crime to profit from it?

 

Most of your points are concerned with harm when I am talking about choice. People are going to use. That will not stop.

Would you be in favour of banning sugar? I have read it is more addictive than opioids and a massive, massive affect on healthcare.

 

 

Where did I say that? my reference was to Botch and his bad coke but...

You can't be implying that there is no difference between clean product and cut with dirty supply can you?

You know, such as fentanyl. It's kinda been a big thing for a few years.

 

BTW, everything is starting to be cut with something these days...according to my nephews friend that is a lab tester.  

"So people can have the drugs but we want crime to profit from it?"

I'm not going to rehash everything I already proved about crime being able to profit from it whether you legalize it or not, you can scroll up and read it if interested. The only way crime doesnt profit is if you make it all free, and in whatever quantity people want. Unless that's what you're proposing? Free heroin, meth, oxycodone for everyone?

"Most of your points are concerned with harm when I am talking about choice. People are going to use. That will not stop."

Most of my posts are explaining how if you legalize and make something more accessible, more people will use it than currently do, and how that's a far worse outcome than the status quo. 

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7 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

"So people can have the drugs but we want crime to profit from it?"

I'm not going to rehash everything I already proved about crime being able to profit from it whether you legalize it or not, you can scroll up and read it if interested. The only way crime doesnt profit is if you make it all free, and in whatever quantity people want. Unless that's what you're proposing? Free heroin, meth, oxycodone for everyone?

"Most of your points are concerned with harm when I am talking about choice. People are going to use. That will not stop."

Most of my posts are explaining how if you legalize and make something more accessible, more people will use it than currently do, and how that's a far worse outcome than the status quo. 

I just disagree.

 

Maybe it is a 'pipedream' ( btw, like what you did there) but what we are doing now isn't working.

 

People are going to do with their bodies whatever they want. It's nobodies else's choice. I believe education can reduce harm, I believe revenues from products can be put toward support and health care. But we are going around in circles. 

 

I'm not fine with criminals being the source for these decriminalised substances and making the profit. You claim they will switch to other crimes as examples in other countries.

Don't care, this is Canada, we have the resources to get ahead of that if we want . Stomp out crime wherever it pops up as it always should be.

 

I think we have hit an impasse in our discussion. 

Again, respect your views, I just believe we could try something different cause what we have isn't working and it's getting worse./

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1 hour ago, WeneedLumme said:

You are choosing to ignore certain points. 

 

- the fact that you, a sanctimonious, willfully ignorant adult, do not know where to buy illegal drugs means absolutely nothing to any kid who goes to school, where 1000 other kids also go. Every kid knows who are the "bad kids" who will sell you whatever you want, regardless of whether or not they are "in their immediate sphere of influence". YOUR kids do too, although they might not admit it to you.

 

- most kids CHOOSE not to use hard drugs, even though they ARE readily available to them, regardless of whether or not you believe it.

 

- the worst issues caused by illegal drugs are the fentanyl deaths caused by contamination of the ILLEGAL drug supply and the damage caused by junkies trying to raise money by any method possible to buy illegal drugs.

 

- you seem to be determined to ignore the results obtained in countries like Switzerland and Portugal, where drugs are sensibly treated like the health issue they are rather than a criminal issue, resulting in far less HARM than prohibition causes.

 

We are all in agreement with you that we don't want you to "rehash again", as you have more than made your position clear with your endless string of repetitive posts in this thread.

I'm ignoring nothing. And interesting that you call me sanctimonious and ignorant, when you seem to be in the camp of people that think its possible to get "safe heroin". Jfc. 

You think that under the status quo, its not a bigger risk to go up to a kid (even a bad kid) and ask them for some MDMA vs weed? 
What you're choosing to ignore is that more than 3x more kids abuse prescription opioids that are more accessible, than less dangerous but less accessible drugs like MDMA. More access means more use. 

 "- the worst issues caused by illegal drugs are the fentanyl deaths caused by contamination of the ILLEGAL drug supply and the damage caused by junkies trying to raise money by any method possible to buy illegal drugs." 

I'm sorry but you're just plain fcking wrong on this. Both are issues, but the single biggest issue is that things like Cocaine, Heroin, Meth, and opioids are incredibly addictive. More people using = more people dying. 

"- you seem to be determined to ignore the results obtained in countries like Switzerland and Portugal, where drugs are sensibly treated like the health issue they are rather than a criminal issue, resulting in far less HARM than prohibition causes."

Again, dont know what the youre talking about. Drugs are DECRIMINALIZED but not legal in switzerland and portugal. 

You also clearly dont know the nuances of those drug policies. Portugal's reforms successfully reduced the spread of HIV/AIDS by giving people a safe place and safe tools to use Heroin. I'm all for this. Drugs can be prescribed to specific individuals to treat addiction as well - this is a good thing, doses of heroin can be used like methodone to help reduce a users dependency over time. However, even to these sensible policies, there are still consequences. For example, The number of high risk opioid users in Portugal per 100k population is greater than the european average. However, drug related deaths in portugal are also among the lowest in europe. So that's the tradeoff, and probably one they're comfortable with, which is fine. 
Notice however, that portugal and switzerland didn't legalize all drugs like people in this forum are proposing. You can't go to a doctor or into a liquor store and say "give me some heroin please, here's $100". 

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3 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

Where did I say that? my reference was to Botch and his bad coke but...

You can't be implying that there is no difference between clean product and cut with dirty supply can you?

You know, such as fentanyl. It's kinda been a big thing for a few years.

 

BTW, everything is starting to be cut with something these days...according to my nephews friend that is a lab tester.  

“I want clean supply so recreational users like Jason Botchford can use if they want, and not die.”
 

Does that sentence not imply that if Jason had taken clean cocaine he wouldn’t have died?

 

I have no clue how they make or cut today’s cocaine and heroin. But I totally agree with you that today’s dirty cocaine filled with fetanyl is much worse than the clean stuff. No argument from me there. 

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1 hour ago, eeeeergh said:

I'm ignoring nothing. .

 "- the worst issues caused by illegal drugs are the fentanyl deaths caused by contamination of the ILLEGAL drug supply and the damage caused by junkies trying to raise money by any method possible to buy illegal drugs." 

I'm sorry but you're just plain fcking wrong on this. Both are issues, but the single biggest issue is that things like Cocaine, Heroin, Meth, and opioids are incredibly addictive. More people using = more people dying. 
 

Right... Like you are not choosing to ignore the fact that hard, illegal drugs are READILY available to any teenager. And because they are much lighter, far less bulky, don't require an adult anywhere in the supply chain and have much higher profit margins, they are more readily available to kids than alcohol.

 

Alcohol and nicotine are also addictive; nicotine is about the most addictive substance on the planet. And the fact that they kill people, as do contaminated illegal drugs, in your mind is less significant than the fact that they are addictive?  

 

That is truly disgusting to me, as it would be to anyone who knows someone who died from contaminated illegal drugs (or alcohol or tobacco use for that matter). Caffeine is addictive too, but it doesn't kill people. But by your "reasoning", caffeine is a big problem, too.

 

You are arrogant, sanctimonious and willfully ignorant, and are onto my ignore list where you belong.

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5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

“I want clean supply so recreational users like Jason Botchford can use if they want, and not die.”
 

Does that sentence not imply that if Jason had taken clean cocaine he wouldn’t have died?

 

I have no clue how they make or cut today’s cocaine and heroin. But I totally agree with you that today’s dirty cocaine filled with fetanyl is much worse than the clean stuff. No argument from me there. 

Ok.

I am a bit surprised that you have interpreted that sentence as though I believe that people can't overdose on drugs, period. If that was my belief, I would not have said in every second post I have submitted in this thread statements about putting profits to education and healthcare.

 

But to answer your question. No, I don't think Botch would have died if his supply wasn't cut with fentanyl. 

I believe recreational users like Jason Botchford are smart, professional, family guys, that likely use now and again but are educated enough to not go all Tony Montana on their intake. As they know the risks of over indulgence.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Ok.

I am a bit surprised that you have interpreted that sentence as though I believe that people can't overdose on drugs, period. If that was my belief, I would not have said in every second post I have submitted in this thread statements about putting profits to education and healthcare.

 

But to answer your question. No, I don't think Botch would have died if his supply wasn't cut with fentanyl. 

I believe recreational users like Jason Botchford are smart, professional, family guys, that likely use now and again but are educated enough to not go all Tony Montana on their intake. As they know the risks of over indulgence.

 

 

 

 

Exactly.  Look at it the same as booze.  If someone is doing shots of 80% alcohol thinking it's 30%, they're going to get alcohol poisoning.   As a result, the ABV is clearly marked on the bottle so people know their limit.

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12 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

Right... Like you are not choosing to ignore the fact that hard, illegal drugs are READILY available to any teenager. And because they are much lighter, far less bulky, don't require an adult anywhere in the supply chain and have much higher profit margins, they are more readily available to kids than alcohol.

 

Alcohol and nicotine are also addictive; nicotine is about the most addictive substance on the planet. And the fact that they kill people, as do contaminated illegal drugs, in your mind is less significant than the fact that they are addictive?  

 

That is truly disgusting to me, as it would be to anyone who knows someone who died from contaminated illegal drugs (or alcohol or tobacco use for that matter). Caffeine is addictive too, but it doesn't kill people. But by your "reasoning", caffeine is a big problem, too.

 

You are arrogant, sanctimonious and willfully ignorant, and are onto my ignore list where you belong.

Not sure if you're actually this stupid or if trolling. I'm not ignoring anything. The data supports my position, you're making crap up. Alcohol is far more available to any teenager than heroin. The fact that you're disputing that...

The fact that you're in the legalize all drugs camp puts you in the turbo dumbass category, and going on my ignore list too.

You're parsing my words wilfully when you know full well what I mean - that the primary issue with these substances is that they are addictive and can and will readily KILL YOU in due course. I care about keeping as many people off heroin, cocaine, meth, whereas you seem to not give a crap. 

Idiot. Turbo idiot.

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About freaking time.
 

Take all the money we raise from the sale of these drugs and put it into mental health, safe use sites and drug addiction programs. This is and always has been a health issue, just like tobacco/nicotine and alcohol, it’s way past due we started treating it as such instead of a criminal one that punishes those who are suffering and most in need of help.

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8 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

Not sure if you're actually this stupid or if trolling. I'm not ignoring anything. The data supports my position, you're making crap up. Alcohol is far more available to any teenager than heroin. The fact that you're disputing that...

The fact that you're in the legalize all drugs camp puts you in the turbo dumbass category, and going on my ignore list too.

You're parsing my words wilfully when you know full well what I mean - that the primary issue with these substances is that they are addictive and can and will readily KILL YOU in due course. I care about keeping as many people off heroin, cocaine, meth, whereas you seem to not give a crap. 

Idiot. Turbo idiot.

The only reason you wouldn't have access to illegal drugs when you were a teenager was your attitude towards them and people with a more open mind towards them.  I could have gotten heroin as a teenager quicker than alcohol, and chose not to.

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9 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

 Alcohol is far more available to any teenager than heroin. 

any kid in high school who has snapchat has access to a network that can get him/her anything they want in about 5 minutes. 

 

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54 minutes ago, JM_ said:

any kid in high school who has snapchat has access to a network that can get him/her anything they want in about 5 minutes. 

 

Drugs, sure, but of course a case of beer or a twentysixer of hard liquor would take a bit longer since they don't fit into a vendor's wallet or watch pocket as easily as chemicals do. 

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7 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

Drugs, sure, but of course a case of beer or a twentysixer of hard liquor would take a bit longer since they don't fit into a vendor's wallet or watch pocket as easily as chemicals do. 

yep. The idea that kids have easier access to booze than drugs is surprising to hear. 

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Gotta clean up the supply.

 

Why decriminalizing drug possession won't fix Canada's toxic supply

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada-overdose-crisis-toxic-supply-decriminalization-1.6477015

 

Canada's toxic drug supply problem can't be fixed by decriminalizing the possession of small quantities of drugs alone — a move that advocates say is a step in the right direction but a far cry from addressing the worsening overdose crisis.

In response to the crisis, the federal government announced a plan this week to allow adults in British Columbia to possess small amounts of some illicit drugs — up to 2.5 grams of opioids, cocaine, methamphetamine and MDMA within British Columbia.

 

But in the past decade, the illicit drug supply has gone from unthinkably bad to unimaginably worse as fentanyl has completely overtaken heroin and even more dangerous drugs have entered the supply. 

 

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37 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Gotta clean up the supply.

 

Why decriminalizing drug possession won't fix Canada's toxic supply

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada-overdose-crisis-toxic-supply-decriminalization-1.6477015

 

Canada's toxic drug supply problem can't be fixed by decriminalizing the possession of small quantities of drugs alone — a move that advocates say is a step in the right direction but a far cry from addressing the worsening overdose crisis.

In response to the crisis, the federal government announced a plan this week to allow adults in British Columbia to possess small amounts of some illicit drugs — up to 2.5 grams of opioids, cocaine, methamphetamine and MDMA within British Columbia.

 

But in the past decade, the illicit drug supply has gone from unthinkably bad to unimaginably worse as fentanyl has completely overtaken heroin and even more dangerous drugs have entered the supply... 

 

unfortunately in our society only baby steps are tolerated. We have to get the more conservative thinkers to accept this path, and it takes them time. 

 

So once decriminalization doesn't end up in the horror show they think it will (just like they said safe injection sites would unleash hell on earth) we can then move on to a sensible safe supply. 

 

If we don't do it this way the next time the con's get back in power they'll just change it back. 

 

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2 hours ago, JM_ said:

unfortunately in our society only baby steps are tolerated. We have to get the more conservative thinkers to accept this path, and it takes them time. 

 

So once decriminalization doesn't end up in the horror show they think it will (just like they said safe injection sites would unleash hell on earth) we can then move on to a sensible safe supply. 

 

If we don't do it this way the next time the con's get back in power they'll just change it back. 

 

Think of this as our "brown paper bag" to quote The Wire.

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It seems like every time one of these decriminalization, or legalization threads come up, there are one or two posters predicting dire consequences and claiming that the data backs their opinion....even though they certainly do not...

 

https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight

 

Quote

In the first five years after the reforms, drug deaths dropped dramatically. They rose slightly in the following years, before returning to 2005 levels in 2011, with only 10 drug overdose deaths recorded in that year. Since 2011, drug deaths have risen again but remain below 2001 levels (when there were 76 recorded deaths).10

In 2001, Portuguese drug death rates were very similar to the EU average. While rates fell in Portugal following reform, they increased across the rest of Europe in the same timeframe. From 2011 onwards both Portugal and the rest of the EU have trended similarly, rising until 2015/6 — however, the gap between the two remains considerably wider than it was pre-reform. In real terms, drug death rates in Portugal remain some of the lowest in the EU: 6 deaths per million among people aged 15-64, compared to the EU average of 23.7 per million (2019). They are practically incomparable to the 315 deaths per million aged 15-64 experienced in Scotland, which is over 50 times higher than the Portuguese rates.11

https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/portugal-heroin-decriminalization/

 

The CBC article stresses that legalization is only part of the solution. Treating the problem as a health issue, rather than a criminal one, is key....

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