Canuck D Pairings -- Some Surprises

[mll]

3 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

I don't disagree that we could've done without one of Hamonic or Poolman (although Hamonic got us a 3rd round pick), however I have a problem with this way of thinking that says that we could've signed one of the other guys. 

 

We couldn't. 

 

Savard was only going to sign in Montreal. 

 

Larsson got bigger offers elsewhere but specifically chose the expansion team Seattle.  

 

Another important detail is that every team needs 8-9 NHL capable dmen. You've seen many teams that have 3-4 dmen injured at the same time, especially with Covid absences. So I don't have as much of an issue with the fact that we cornered the market on the bottom pairing dmen. Very happy with Schenn, Burroughs, and Hunt signings. Hoping that we resign Juulsen to a 2-3 year cheap contract as I really liked what I saw in him this year. 

Larsson never spoke to other teams.  The expansion draft was before free agency and he was the expansion pick for Edmonton.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mll said:

Larsson never spoke to other teams.  The expansion draft was before free agency and he was the expansion pick for Edmonton.

Edmonton was said to have offered him an extension in season. 

 

https://oilersnation.com/2021/05/09/report-edmonton-oilers-adam-larsson-talking-four-year-contract-extension/

 

Reported many other places as well. 

 

So it wasn't as simple as us simply  not getting Larson because we didn't want to, we couldn't get him. 

 

If I had a dollar for every Canuck fan that was upset that we didn't offer-sheet Cernak or trade for him... 

Edited June 13, 2022 by VancouverHabitant

[Guest]

For the sake of perspective, I'm going to list teams previous to Tampa that have won a cup.  The following will be their top 7 defensemen according to games played in the playoffs where they won the cup.  

 

St Louis Blues 

Robert Bortuzzo , Jay Bouwmeester, Colton Parayko, Alex Pietrangelo, Joel Edmundson, Vince Dunn, Carl Gunnarsson 

 

Washington Capitals 

John Carlson, Matt Niskanen, Dmitry Orlov, Michal Kempny, Brooks Orpik, Christian Djoos, Jakub Jerabek 

 

Pittsburgh Penguins 

Ian Cole, Ron Hainsey, Olli Maatta, Brian Dumoulin, Justin Schulz, Trevor Daley, Chad Ruhwedel 

 

 

Question to everyone commenting in this thread:  how do you feel that our D compares to these cup winning ones?  Where would you slot Quinn Hughes, OEL,Tyler Myers, Luke Schenn, Tucker Poolman, Travis Dermott, and Kyle Burroughs? 

[mll]

7 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Edmonton was said to have offered him an extension in season. 

 

https://oilersnation.com/2021/05/09/report-edmonton-oilers-adam-larsson-talking-four-year-contract-extension/

 

Reported many other places as well. 

 

So it wasn't as simple as us simply  not getting Larson because we didn't want to, we couldn't get him. 

 

If I had a dollar for every Canuck fan that was upset that we didn't offer-sheet Cernak or trade for him... 

He was Edmonton property and they indeed tried to sign him before exposing him in expansion.  He couldn't have talked to other teams - he never reached UFA and signed with Seattle as their pick in expansion.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, mll said:

He was Edmonton property and they indeed tried to sign him before exposing him in expansion.  He couldn't have talked to other teams - he never reached UFA and signed with Seattle as their pick in expansion.

 

Yes, yes, you're right as usual 

 

My point of contention is when fans say "we should've signed X player instead" as if it's a candy store and we just get to pick whatever we want. 

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

For the sake of perspective, I'm going to list teams previous to Tampa that have won a cup.  The following will be their top 7 defensemen according to games played in the playoffs where they won the cup.  

 

St Louis Blues 

Robert Bortuzzo , Jay Bouwmeester, Colton Parayko, Alex Pietrangelo, Joel Edmundson, Vince Dunn, Carl Gunnarsson 

 

Washington Capitals 

John Carlson, Matt Niskanen, Dmitry Orlov, Michal Kempny, Brooks Orpik, Christian Djoos, Jakub Jerabek 

 

Pittsburgh Penguins 

Ian Cole, Ron Hainsey, Olli Maatta, Brian Dumoulin, Justin Schulz, Trevor Daley, Chad Ruhwedel 

 

 

Question to everyone commenting in this thread:  how do you feel that our D compares to these cup winning ones?  Where would you slot Quinn Hughes, OEL,Tyler Myers, Luke Schenn, Tucker Poolman, Travis Dermott, and Kyle Burroughs? 

Bringing up PIT...look at that D lol.   Middling maybe?   Probably being generous.   Unless you've got a team of game breakers you can't win a cup without a strong defense.    Ours is maybe a little better then PIT.   So is at least half the league right now,    What we don't have is a Crosby or a Malkin on the ice for 3/4 of the game.    That's why they won back to back cups.    One of the best players all-time...not many teams all-time had the one two punch that team had.   They weren't a possession team like CHI and LA...middling as well (and thank god for that - i was getting pretty sick of the analytic crowds saying a 55%-60% team is SOO So much better then say a 50% team.   What does 5-10% really matter?  Hockey will never work that way.   PIT was coached to counter-attack and it worked like a charm.   Low percentage shots... mean nothing other then maybe a couple extra goals at best every 100 shots.   Then you regain possession - and off the to races if you have the right horses which they did. 

 

St. Louis.    No superstars.   Just a loaded team that could roll a top 10 that was hard to beat.    Smart as well. 

 

There are several ways a team can win a cup.   Cap era is different for sure.   Very very difficult to "load up".    For 20 or so teams anyways.   The difference between 22-10 is razor thin.   As in 22nd overall to tenth.   And the difference between a contender and the other 9 teams is also razor thin.   

 

It's almost impossible not to have holes in your lineup .... the only teams that doesn't  right now is TB and maybe CAL....  COL is loaded loaded ... but doesn't have a real starter.    Also will say this - TB and COL are the best teams we've seen since the early early 2000's.   Loser points take them off for starters.   Once you compare teams ... Detroit/COL/NJ were the cream of the crop back then.   And for most of the 90's as well.    I find the tax difference sucks because we have the worst taxes in BC.   But at the same time i absolutely love to see great teams again.  It's been a long long long time. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by IBatch

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Bringing up PIT...look at that D lol.   Middling maybe?   Probably being generous.   Unless you've got a team of game breakers you can't win a cup without a strong defense.    Ours is maybe a little better then PIT.   So is at least half the league right now,    What we don't have is a Crosby or a Malkin on the ice for 3/4 of the game.    That's why they won back to back cups.    One of the best players all-time...not many teams all-time had the one two punch that team had.   They weren't a possession team like CHI and LA...middling as well (and thank god for that - i was getting pretty sick of the analytic crowds saying a 55%-60% team is SOO So much better then say a 50% team.   What does 5-10% really matter?  Hockey will never work that way.   PIT was coached to counter-attack and it worked like a charm.   Low percentage shots... mean nothing other then maybe a couple extra goals at best every 100 shots.   Then you regain possession - and off the to races if you have the right horses which they did. 

 

St. Louis.    No superstars.   Just a loaded team that could roll a top 10 that was hard to beat.    Smart as well. 

 

There are several ways a team can win a cup.   Cap era is different for sure.   Very very difficult to "load up".    For 20 or so teams anyways.   The difference between 22-10 is razor thin.   As in 22nd overall to tenth.   And the difference between a contender and the other 9 teams is also razor thin.   

 

It's almost impossible not to have holes in your lineup .... the only teams that doesn't  right now is TB and maybe CAL....  COL is loaded loaded ... but doesn't have a real starter.  

Gillis built a roster that was a Cup level team for about 3-4 years.  Hopefully, JR can do the same.  

[mll]

11 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Yes, yes, you're right as usual 

 

My point of contention is when fans say "we should've signed X player instead" as if it's a candy store and we just get to pick whatever we want. 

That's the point.  He was never available to Vancouver so no one can reasonably claim that they should have just signed Larsson.

 

[mll]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Bringing up PIT...look at that D lol.   Middling maybe?   Probably being generous.   Unless you've got a team of game breakers you can't win a cup without a strong defense.    Ours is maybe a little better then PIT.   So is at least half the league right now,    What we don't have is a Crosby or a Malkin on the ice for 3/4 of the game.    That's why they won back to back cups.    One of the best players all-time...not many teams all-time had the one two punch that team had.   They weren't a possession team like CHI and LA...middling as well (and thank god for that - i was getting pretty sick of the analytic crowds saying a 55%-60% team is SOO So much better then say a 50% team.   What does 5-10% really matter?  Hockey will never work that way.   PIT was coached to counter-attack and it worked like a charm.   Low percentage shots... mean nothing other then maybe a couple extra goals at best every 100 shots.   Then you regain possession - and off the to races if you have the right horses which they did. 

 

St. Louis.    No superstars.   Just a loaded team that could roll a top 10 that was hard to beat.    Smart as well. 

 

There are several ways a team can win a cup.   Cap era is different for sure.   Very very difficult to "load up".    For 20 or so teams anyways.   The difference between 22-10 is razor thin.   As in 22nd overall to tenth.   And the difference between a contender and the other 9 teams is also razor thin.   

 

It's almost impossible not to have holes in your lineup .... the only teams that doesn't  right now is TB and maybe CAL....  COL is loaded loaded ... but doesn't have a real starter.    Also will say this - TB and COL are the best teams we've seen since the early early 2000's.   Loser points take them off for starters.   Once you compare teams ... Detroit/COL/NJ were the cream of the crop back then.   And for most of the 90's as well.    I find the tax difference sucks because we have the worst taxes in BC.   But at the same time i absolutely love to see great teams again.  It's been a long long long time. 

Johnson was replaced mid-season by Sullivan.  Rutherford put part of the blame for Pittsburgh struggles on himself saying that he failed to bring in puck moving Ds - he went on to trade for Schulz and Daley.

 

Pittsburgh defence was so mobile and aggressive offensively - it was a novelty back then.  They were already defending at the opponents' blue line and were trying to prevent them from even reaching the neutral zone, let alone the Penguins' end.  

 

Nashville modelled their approach on D after Pittsburgh and so did SJS after losing to them in the finals.  Now every team has puck moving Ds and it's been widely accepted that the best way to play defence is to force the other team to defend.  What was a novelty and a competitive edge when they won the Cup is no longer the case today.

 

[IBatch]

24 minutes ago, mll said:

Johnson was replaced mid-season by Sullivan.  Rutherford put part of the blame for Pittsburgh struggles on himself saying that he failed to bring in puck moving Ds - he went on to trade for Schulz and Daley.

 

Pittsburgh defence was so mobile and aggressive offensively - it was a novelty back then.  They were already defending at the opponents' blue line and were trying to prevent them from even reaching the neutral zone, let alone the Penguins' end.  

 

Nashville modelled their approach on D after Pittsburgh and so did SJS after losing to them in the finals.  Now every team has puck moving Ds and it's been widely accepted that the best way to play defence is to force the other team to defend.  What was a novelty and a competitive edge when they won the Cup is no longer the case today.

 

That's about the most hilarious thing i've seen from you but thanks for playing.   NSH didn't "model their defense" after PIT.   For two decades all they've done is draft D's.   Two generations worth.   SJ? Don't get that reference either.   That's a lot of supposition.   What DID happen after PIT won with a middling defense at best (Shultz was no Letang, and a defensive liability in EDM but for sure did his best - not a top pairing guy like Weber, Suter, Josi, Ellis, Ekholm

etc etc - and definitely no Brent Burns or Vlasic whom for the better part of a decade was the best defensive D in the league - and both on the team already) ... adding EK?  Well he for sure isn't modelling anything after Ian Cole, Domuolin or Shultz is he?  One of four D's to ever be in the top ten in scoring 3 times ... Shultz?   I watched both those playoffs - the Pens were on their heals all the time, they were not a possession team or particularly good on D either - what they were good at was counter -attack and got incredible goaltending both from Murray and Fleury.   I don't know where your going with this one - but find all the GM quotes you want dont see it that way...Neither NSH or SJ modelled anything like PIT, to do that they'd need a Crosby and a Malkin.   Letang did play their second cup run.   Their first was probably the most mediocre D i remember winning a cup since 93 MTL (and their's was better).  

 

What did JB do?  He for sure was a follower of recent trends.   Just don't see it with NSH or SJ.   Both had better D's already.   

 

Edit:  JB did speed and skill and rolled back the other stuff. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by IBatch

[mll]

49 minutes ago, IBatch said:

That's about the most hilarious thing i've seen from you but thanks for playing.   NSH didn't "model their defense" after PIT.   For two decades all they've done is draft D's.   Two generations worth.   SJ? Don't get that reference either.   That's a lot of supposition.   What DID happen after PIT won with a middling defense at best (Shultz was no Letang, and a defensive liability in EDM but for sure did his best - not a top pairing guy like Weber, Suter, Josi, Ellis, Ekholm

etc etc - and definitely no Brent Burns or Vlasic whom for the better part of a decade was the best defensive D in the league - and both on the team already) ... adding EK?  Well he for sure isn't modelling anything after Ian Cole, Domuolin or Shultz is he?  One of four D's to ever be in the top ten in scoring 3 times ... Shultz?   I watched both those playoffs - the Pens were on their heals all the time, they were not a possession team or particularly good on D either - what they were good at was counter -attack and got incredible goaltending both from Murray and Fleury.   I don't know where your going with this one - but find all the GM quotes you want dont see it that way...Neither NSH or SJ modelled anything like PIT, to do that they'd need a Crosby and a Malkin.   Letang did play their second cup run.   Their first was probably the most mediocre D i remember winning a cup since 93 MTL (and their's was better).  

 

What did JB do?  He for sure was a follower of recent trends.   Just don't see it with NSH or SJ.   Both had better D's already.   

 

Edit:  JB did speed and skill and rolled back the other stuff. 

 

Poile himself explained that he took inspiration from Pittsburgh.  Nashville traded Weber for Subban that off-season.  He figured that they are more likely to win games if they spend more time in the opponents end than in their own.  They knew they gave up defence for more offence but felt they would have more success that way.  Housley was running the defence back then and explained that they might not have the most physical D-corps but had one of the more mobile ones and were going to defend by playing keep away and having the Ds an integral part of their offence.  The 5-men unit and no positional play in the o-zone was not widespread and gave them a competitive edge.

 

From an interview with Poile on the Predators' website: Exemplified by the Pittsburgh Penguins during their run to the Stanley Cup, team speed, and specifically, quick puck movement from the defensive zone have become a required element for those hoping to be among the NHL’s finest. 

 

“If you look back around the League, if you look at the top teams that made it far, you see how their defense helps with creating offense. If you look at Pittsburgh or even Nashville the last couple years, or Washington, it definitely starts with their defense making quick plays and their D being a part of the rush and a part of the offense,” he said. “The way I know Nashville plays, I think that’s their style, and I think by adding Subban and myself - that are that style of players - it’ll be even more beneficial. We all know that you have to be good defensively to win, but it helps the forwards to know that the defense is so creative from the backend.”

 

SJS adjusted their system.  They were initially a very sound defensive team but then decided to favour offence over defence.  Their Ds were more aggressive offensively.  Part of the reason Jones fell off a cliff - the way they played defence in front of him changed.  SJS went on for allowing some of the lowest rush chances against to the most and he struggled with that.

 

Here's former coach Paul MacLean explaining the advantage Pittsburgh had with a mobile D-corps:

Speed on the back end is such an advantage. With tight gaps like that, it leads to turnovers. And speed is such a key to the transition game. Defensively, it also allows them to play defense at the red line instead of behind their blue line. 

It takes a lot of discipline to play that way. When one of your defensemen is moving up to embark on a controlled pinch when the other team has the puck, one of the defending forwards needs to drop back to join his defense partner.

Two seasons ago in the Final, all San Jose could do was make line changes because Pittsburgh had the puck all the time. The Penguins always seemed to have the puck in the offensive zone and rarely in the defensive zone. When the Sharks tried to play offense, all they could do was change lines because the Penguins controlled the pace of play. Teams can't play this way the whole game, but when they start playing like that they are very hard to play against. They really control the pace and tempo.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by mll

[aGENT]

On 6/13/2022 at 10:50 PM, mll said:

He was Edmonton property and they indeed tried to sign him before exposing him in expansion.  He couldn't have talked to other teams - he never reached UFA and signed with Seattle as their pick in expansion.

 

 

On 6/13/2022 at 10:56 PM, VancouverHabitant said:

Yes, yes, you're right as usual 

 

My point of contention is when fans say "we should've signed X player instead" as if it's a candy store and we just get to pick whatever we want. 

 

On 6/14/2022 at 10:36 AM, mll said:

That's the point.  He was never available to Vancouver so no one can reasonably claim that they should have just signed Larsson.

 

 

Nobody claimed "they should have just signed Larsson".

 

And you're both naive if you think teams don't unofficially "indicate interest"  in players through back channels, ahead of UFA (or expansion draft) periods.

 

I thought we already covered this in the Miller thread mll?

Edited June 16, 2022 by aGENT

[DS4quality]

48 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

 

 

Nobody claimed "they should have just signed Larsson".

 

And you're both naive if you think teams don't unofficially "indicate interest"  in players through back channels, ahead of UFA (or expansion draft) periods.

 

I thought we already covered this in the Miller thread mll?

The point is he was never an option which I don't understand how that blows your mind. 

4,000,000 for 25 pts and a -23, and you complain about Poolman???

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, DS4quality said:

The point is he was never an option which I don't understand how that blows your mind. 

4,000,000 for 25 pts and a -23, and you complain about Poolman???

Typical CDC, going after one small part of a post, our of context, and ignoring the greater point. I merely suggested we could have potentially done a better job communicating interest to him among many possible options. Including the most obvious, which was to simply retain Edler. That's it. 

 

And his stat line is largely a function of his poor team.

 

Never mind that Larsson's availability or lack thereof has diddly to do with it being stupid to sign both Hamonic and Poolman.

[Gawdzukes]

10 minutes ago, DS4quality said:

The point is he was never an option which I don't understand how that blows your mind. 

4,000,000 for 25 pts and a -23, and you complain about Poolman???

Ummm. Are you at all familiar with expansion teams? What do you expect his plus minus to be as the #1 dman getting pummeled all night on a horrible hockey team?

 

3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

And his stat line is largely a function of his poor team.

 

Never mind that Larsson's availability or lack thereof has diddly to do with it being stupid to sign both Hamonic and Poolman.

[DS4quality]

46 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Ummm. Are you at all familiar with expansion teams? What do you expect his plus minus to be as the #1 dman getting pummeled all night on a horrible hockey team?

 

Could say the same about hamonic and Poolman then being on a terribly coached team. Who else was available though, this is what gets me. You're missing the point that there wasn't much out there at the time yet, somehow we could magically grab a #2 rhd from thin air? The signings were meh, mostly because Hamonic wouldn't play. 

But Poolman literally got exponentially better once Baumgartner left. The whole d did except Hughes who is a legit star.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, DS4quality said:

Could say the same about hamonic and Poolman then being on a terribly coached team. Who else was available though, this is what gets me. You're missing the point that there wasn't much out there at the time yet, somehow we could magically grab a #2 rhd from thin air? The signings were meh, mostly because Hamonic wouldn't play. 

But Poolman literally got exponentially better once Baumgartner left. The whole d did except Hughes who is a legit star.

Nobody suggested a #2 D. A top 4 would have been fine. Including our very own Edler.

 

And again, it's not that either Poolman or Hamonic are "bad" 3rd pair D or even bad value at their cap hits INDIVIDUALLY. Signing both however, was a bad use of limited cap space, that didn't actually address any of our many, clear roster issues.

[DS4quality]

Just now, aGENT said:

Nobody suggested a #2 D. A top 4 would have been fine. Including our very own Edler.

 

And again, it's not that either Poolman or Hamonic are "bad" 3rd pair D or even bad value at their cap hits INDIVIDUALLY. Signing both however, was a bad use of limited cap space, that didn't actually address any of our many, clear roster issues.

It wasn't the defenseman signings it was literally the coach. Baumgartner probably scared Edler away seeing as they made him an offer and he decided to jump ship to LA.  They brought in RHD because that's what the coach wanted. We didn't see any LHD on the right side until the coaching change. I don't think Edler would have made our d much better. The defense would have actually been slower. Also if he saved our pk we'd probably have 2 more years of Green.

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, DS4quality said:

It wasn't the defenseman signings it was literally the coach. Baumgartner probably scared Edler away seeing as they made him an offer and he decided to jump ship to LA.  They brought in RHD because that's what the coach wanted. We didn't see any LHD on the right side until the coaching change. I don't think Edler would have made our d much better. The defense would have actually been slower. Also if he saved our pk we'd probably have 2 more years of Green.

 

 

[Ghostsof1915]

On 6/14/2022 at 8:06 AM, Alflives said:

Gillis built a roster that was a Cup level team for about 3-4 years.  Hopefully, JR can do the same.  

You mean Nonis.