Drafting Defence

[Fred65]

1 hour ago, Putgolzin said:

I'm even more interested in Madison Bowey.

I didn't watch Abbotsford at all, and I suppose in both their cases it's a function of already having decent/good RHD at the bottom of the lineup.

But Bowey was a real NHL Dman in Washington and Detroit.

He put up good numbers in Abby as well as a team leading +16

And his bio says he's a great skater, has very adequate size and can play a shutdown role.

What's not to like?

That was my impression of Bowey too. Some experience under his belt, bit of a late developer. If you want Cull to succeed you have to give him the clay to mould the future with IMO

Edited June 14, 2022 by Fred65

[IBatch]

On 6/12/2022 at 10:13 PM, Angry Goose said:

It was a figure of speech, actually.

 

But using “all our picks” from the next two drafts in solely defensemen could come across that way.

As an aside .... i don't recall exactly when it was, or the team (CLB?, NYI?) but think it was in the mid 2000's... a team had ten picks, used every single one on defenseman, and not one of them worked out lol...  It was a story back then, because it was used as lesson in taking BPA.    Obviously their scouting staff crapped the bed - but they blew extra picks and an entire draft going in there only focusing on their D. 

 

Also i agree with the OP.   Teams should be built from the net out ... with a big eye towards their number one center as well.  

 

Right now our team needs to consider doing just that, including the heir apparent to Demko.    Demko has arrived and is considered one of the 10-12 true number ones in the league ... fantasy wise around 8th at the moment (that of course would move up if we are a better team - but it's also a huge testament to what we do have right now as well, obviously we aren't the 8th best team in the league are we?) ...

 

There are two slam dunks this year, both will be gone by 6-7 likely.   One could go as high as 2-3.   However there are also two more guys we could consider moving up a little to grab IF they are still around and the cost isn't too high.   Likely a second rounder.   If they could trade Hogs or Rathbone instead it might be something to consider though (RHDs as well).   Rathbone is NHL ready right now but not a great fit on our team.   One small PMD is fine - two makes things tricky and he won't get the PP time at least not without some sort of massive break out.     Prefer we keep him but if we don't play him and when he's waiver eligible i'm sure someone would grab him for free.    Means if we use him as a depth guy, he comes up we risk losing him for nothing...

 

The only way i see this current team filling a top four role we need - and upgrading at the same time, would be a trade or over spending via free agency for someone who will decline at a bad time.   Why they are looking for guys 26 and younger.    Schneider would not only replace the hole we have not having two firsts recently, but would also give us the option to trade Myers and go after Manson.   To me that's the ideal best case.     I do think that the team needs to start considering creating the core behind the one that currently exists, rather then trying to "fix" things.   

[iceman64]

On 6/13/2022 at 10:53 AM, AV. said:

Iceman64 calls for defence and Allvin delivers F. Johansson.

Iceman64 just needs to call for a Stanley Cup and we'll be shredding at the Rogers Arena in no time!

Oh yeah I forgot to comment back lol  well it was a start, I've been calling for toughness/skill mix for years... Will JR make that happen? Oddly enough he said he wanted sandpaper due to the tough west division so that might actually happen! If probably have a heart attack and die on the spot, then of course after I'm gone, probably the same season we win out first cup and I missed it.. and after watching since 74, wouldn't that just suck a$$? 

[Ilunga]

On 6/13/2022 at 2:17 PM, Alflives said:

What we need to do is draft a Victor Hedman, and then trade for guys and sign UFAs to build around him.  Tampa’s two Cup teams D was a drafted Hedman and trades and UFAs.

So we have Hughes.  We traded for OEL.  That’s two. 

And a drafted Stamkos and Point.

[Ilunga]

On 6/13/2022 at 8:02 PM, Coconuts said:

Hedman was picked 2nd overall though, landing a player that turns out like him or Weber is like finding a unicorn. Every team wishes they had a Hedman.

 

If we want those elite level players we need to have high picks, beat the odds and have teams pass on such a player, or find a diamond in the rough. Folks quibble about picks as they aren't a guarantee, but the best players are usually found in the first or second round. And often top 10.

Unicorn ? 

 

https://theathletic.com/3171349/2022/03/11/who-is-lane-hutson-the-2022-nhl-drafts-unicorn-5-foot-8-defenseman/

 

 

[Ilunga]

On 6/14/2022 at 4:59 AM, -AJ- said:

Over the years, I've become more and more convinced, that, especially in the 1st round and maybe even the 2nd, always pick the BPA. If you want to stock the cupboards with defensive prospects, pick tons in the later rounds and maybe you'll find one that can stick an NHL job.

If the BPA in the 1st or 2nd round at our pick happens to be a defenseman, that's a bonus.

From 6 - 20 maybe 25 there doesn't seem to be a clear order of BPA at any pick. 

 

I have 3 tiers of d-men in the first 35- 40 picks.

 

2 clear at the top 3- 4 next level and 4- 5 next level. 

[hammertime]

On 6/13/2022 at 11:59 AM, -AJ- said:

Over the years, I've become more and more convinced, that, especially in the 1st round and maybe even the 2nd, always pick the BPA. If you want to stock the cupboards with defensive prospects, pick tons in the later rounds and maybe you'll find one that can stick an NHL job.

If the BPA in the 1st or 2nd round at our pick happens to be a defenseman, that's a bonus.

I don't really agree. To some degree In the first you gotta get the guy no one will trade you. You wanna fill a hole on your roster that you can't fill by other means without getting taken to the cleaners. In the later rounds always BPA because by the time they are ready to contribute your needs will have hopefully changed. 

 

If we know that long term we are going to have a core of Pete, Hughes, Bo then we should be drafting with a eye to complement those players. 

 

In our case drafting undersized offensive D and fwds probably isn't the wisest. At least in the 1st.

 

If you can trade down and get Lian Bichsel and Owen Beck we're far better off than with Howard and Mesar. Even if another team with different needs would consider them BPA

Edited June 15, 2022 by hammertime

[Ghostsof1915]

On 6/14/2022 at 6:32 AM, Putgolzin said:

I'm even more interested in Madison Bowey.

I didn't watch Abbotsford at all, and I suppose in both their cases it's a function of already having decent/good RHD at the bottom of the lineup.

But Bowey was a real NHL Dman in Washington and Detroit.

He put up good numbers in Abby as well as a team leading +16

And his bio says he's a great skater, has very adequate size and can play a shutdown role.

What's not to like?

Is it too much to ask for both to have their contracts renewed?

[Putgolzin]

24 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Is it too much to ask for both to have their contracts renewed?

Not as far as I'm concerned!

Unfortunately I'm betting Bowey looks for greener pastures after not getting a sniff last year. Hope I'm wrong.

[Alflives]

31 minutes ago, Putgolzin said:

Not as far as I'm concerned!

Unfortunately I'm betting Bowey looks for greener pastures after not getting a sniff last year. Hope I'm wrong.

Maybe Bowey gets a better shot to play on the big club after we move out Chaos Giraffe?

[-AJ-]

2 hours ago, hammertime said:

I don't really agree. To some degree In the first you gotta get the guy no one will trade you. You wanna fill a hole on your roster that you can't fill by other means without getting taken to the cleaners. In the later rounds always BPA because by the time they are ready to contribute your needs will have hopefully changed. 

 

If we know that long term we are going to have a core of Pete, Hughes, Bo then we should be drafting with a eye to complement those players. 

 

In our case drafting undersized offensive D and fwds probably isn't the wisest. At least in the 1st.

 

If you can trade down and get Lian Bichsel and Owen Beck we're far better off than with Howard and Mesar. Even if another team with different needs would consider them BPA

The way I see it, it's just the principles of economics that suggest picking the BPA. If a guy has value of 150, then why not always pick him over a guy with a value of 147? Even if you need the 147 more, draft the 150, then trade him for the 147 + 3.

 

Obviously my example is a bit simplistic, but that's the theory anyway.

[73 Percent]

44 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

The way I see it, it's just the principles of economics that suggest picking the BPA. If a guy has value of 150, then why not always pick him over a guy with a value of 147? Even if you need the 147 more, draft the 150, then trade him for the 147 + 3.

 

Obviously my example is a bit simplistic, but that's the theory anyway.

If we could trade the 147+3  for the 150 Schneider would be a Canuck and Miller would be a ranger. I agree that your way should work but it just doesn't in the NHL. Wingers don't hold much value, RD holds excessive value. 

 

Way she goes bud

[-AJ-]

26 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

If we could trade the 147+3  for the 150 Schneider would be a Canuck and Miller would be a ranger. I agree that your way should work but it just doesn't in the NHL. Wingers don't hold much value, RD holds excessive value. 

 

Way she goes bud

In that case, I would simply add a premium to the positions. When I say "BPA", I'm really meaning "MVP", as in most valuable player on the open market. I suppose BPA is a little misleading in that sense.

[Hairy Kneel]

Our scouting for defense has been pretty bad. Even though we haven't had a Hedman type to choose from, when was the last time we even drafted someone as big as a Hedman. 

 

[iceman64]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

Maybe Bowey gets a better shot to play on the big club after we move out Chaos Giraffe?

Well if Bowey is willing to be physical because although Myers can be a bonehead at times like Bieska used to do, both are a need unless by some miracle JR pulls enough toughness in someone else, losing a BIG player is a huge blow to a team needing size, Bowey isn't small at any means BUT we can't go around downsizing in any way shape or form. IF, MB is willing to play physical the way Myers does then I'm ok with it. Although in occasion when he throws a blind pass up the middle... I want to rip my hair out BUT he's hardly the only player who does that. I noticed "some" improvement last season and hope it keeps up so I hear you on Giraffe, however his replacement cannot be 5-10-5'11 and 170 pounds, try to clear out a 6'2 and up 220 pounders from the crease has a lot lower odds when your at a height weight disadvantage which WE do not need!  We can't hang Demko out to dry every night, it's not fair to ask that of any goalie and if the crease if clogged and he's screened, no goalie can stop what they can't see and especially in our division and you know this Alf, careful what you wish for Mr Furface! 

[johngould21]

I've been around since the beginning, and I don't know if this has been discussed or not. In their infant years the Canucks drafted in the first round, Bob Daily, Jocelyn Gouvremont, and Rick Lanz in the first round. They started out like houses on fire, but because they couldn't play d at the NHL level the Canucks moved on from all of them. Daily was, and had the best career in the NHL later with the Flyers. The rest meh. Kids take longer to learn the game on d, and we have to be reminded of just what Quinn Hughes went through the year before last. Very few "get it" and get better at it as their careers progress. Drafting D for this team hasn't been good at all. Butcher, (traded), but was a good trade, and to be honest I can't remember the last d other than Hughes who has amounted to much.

The '82 Canucks had a drafted Rick Lanz, the rest were all acquired through trades and fa signings, Quinns' team was all made up of trades, and fa pickups, as was the '11 team, Bieksa and a rookie Chris Tanev, the rest were acquired through trades, and cap dumps as well. At the 15th pick, I don't get a good sense drafting a defenseman, thus the only way to do this is fa's, and hopefully not paying through the nose for that.

[hammertime]

9 hours ago, -AJ- said:

The way I see it, it's just the principles of economics that suggest picking the BPA. If a guy has value of 150, then why not always pick him over a guy with a value of 147? Even if you need the 147 more, draft the 150, then trade him for the 147 + 3.

 

Obviously my example is a bit simplistic, but that's the theory anyway.

Because you can't trade a small skilled top 6 winger for the player you need when you need him.

[-AJ-]

2 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Because you can't trade a small skilled top 6 winger for the player you need when you need him.

See my earlier post. If you can't trade a guy on the market, then he his value is lower. What I mean by BPA is most valuable player on the market. Often that's the best player, but position comes into play as well. As long as position isn't over-accounted for, it's fine.

[J.I.A.H.N]

IMO, we tend to be a little conservative in out total approach, not just our drafting BPA...............

 

I mean, "IF" we could trade Quinn Hughes and our 2022-15th OA for Arizona's 2022-3OA and Chychrun, people would go crazy on the poster, even "IF" we could draft

Nemec or Jiricek with that pick and have a much better mix. 

 

It is always a risky move, no matter who to take in the draft or who you trade for, IMO, it is about the conductor, and how he arranges his instruments. Given that everything is top quality, and the players are all talented.

 

If you don't get what I mean, compare Green with Bruce Boudreau, and ask your self what changed other than the conductor.

 

Imo, this applies to who you draft and how you develop him.

 

Addressing BPA, exactly what does that mean? I mean in retrospect, every year there is a plethora of players drafted in the first round that are ranked high, that never make it, so again, what does BPA mean, and how is it established, and exactly how accurate is it? I mean, is the order exact? No, not on draft ranking services nor on individual teams. The only place I have actually seen BPA called 100% of the time is on CDC. So, what made this player turn out, while that player didn't?

 

I truly believe BPA is an archaic system, out side of obvious Generational talents, and tiers are more in order. They are slowly sliding over to a more tiered conversation in most circles, but it still remains to some extent.

 

This year.........it is sort of a 

1-3

4-6

7-25 

 

But even that is in dispute in some circles....................so, IMO, pick a player where your tier is, and don' reach to far on your pick and you will be just as close as the next guy picking...........these guys are 17 and that is just an arbitrariial age, and ranking, as it actually changes through out that year, and never mind re-drafts in hind sight, years later.

 

So, my view in summary is..

 

1st round...............team need with in the tier, leaning towards BPA

2nd round.............lean towards team need, with Dmen valued higher than Forwards unless someone crazy falls

3rd round...............alternating years, alternating Dman and Goalie, again, unless a player really falls that you want, then take him and get back to it next year.

Later rounds just BPA, with dark horses being the focus........aka.....if a guy can't skate, but is still ranked in the 4th round, and he learns to skate....watch out!

 

I say all that with the understanding that they are all generalities, and can be ignored at any time. In saying that............................

 

Braydon Points Draft year scouting report....................taken 79th by Tampa Bay

 

June 2014 – The Tampa Bay Lightning selected pint-sized pivot Brayden Point 79th overall at the 2014 NHL Draft. Brendan Ross

 

May 2014 – After an outstanding 16-year-old season scoring 57 points as a rookie, Brayden Point led his Moose Jaw Warriors in scoring with 36 goals and 91 points in his draft season. Undersized at 5-foot-9, Point’s scrappy skilled approach is one that has proven to be successful recently in the NHL, which will help his cause at the 2014 NHL Draft. His defensive awareness is excellent and he is the type of player who can be trusted in every situation. Offensively, Point sees the ice well and displays sneaky playmaking abilities. Size will be the main topic of discussion at drafts table for Brayden Point but outside of that, he’s got smarts, skill set and production to be a top 40 selection.  

[hammertime]

2 hours ago, -AJ- said:

See my earlier post. If you can't trade a guy on the market, then he his value is lower. What I mean by BPA is most valuable player on the market. Often that's the best player, but position comes into play as well. As long as position isn't over-accounted for, it's fine.

I've seen this team fail to get a C for Naz Bert, a PWF for the Sedins, and a RHD for well ever. Is Salo the best RHD we've ever had? Bieksa? I've come to the conclusion the market is based on how bad your need is.

 

We have a young core there are areas we can project as needs to complement them 2-3 years from now. Instead of drafting a player we know we wont need in hopes to flip them for a player we need more. Take the guy you need. Lets not try to "one red paper clip" our way to a cup. 

 

Its much easier to add middle 6 wingers to fluff out your roster later. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by hammertime