Popular Post J.I.A.H.N Posted June 13, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) So, I was on Cap Friendly and noticed the bar graph at the bottom of the Team, before the prospects..............I found it interesting the make up of their teams and how the players were acquired. Here are the following teams and their break downs............ Drafted Traded Signed (UFA) Waivers Offer Sheet Tampa Bay 10 7 6 1 Colorado 6 12 6 1 NY Rangers 6 13 6 Edmonton 10 5 12 STL 10 8 6 Calgary 9 8 7 Florida 7 10 10 1 Washington 9 11 6 1 Toronto 8 7 10 Carolina 6 7 11 1 Vancouver 8 9 11 1 Here are our drafted players : Horvat, Demko, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Rathbone, Podkolzin, Hoglander No #1's that is for sure, but not a bad group of players, and pretty much top 10 comparable. Younger that is for sure, but comparable. So was it the trades or the Signing that put these guys over the top? Or was it just pure luck ? Or a little of each? What do you all think, is there any thing that pops out at you, or is it a mute issue? I also find it interesting that Carolina, Colorado and the Rangers all only have 6 drafted players on their teams, Florida has 7. As a foot note.....Benning's last 3 trades..............Miller, OEL and Garland are all solid middle to above average players............... I am not sure what to make of this? Edited June 13, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N 1 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said: So, I was on Cap Friendly and noticed the bar graph at the bottom of the Tea,, before the prospects..............I found it interesting the make up of their teams and how the players were acquired. Here are the following teams and their break downs............ Drafted Traded Signed (UFA) Waivers Offer Sheet Tampa Bay 10 7 6 1 Colorado 6 12 6 1 NY Rangers 6 13 6 Edmonton 10 5 12 STL 10 8 6 Calgary 9 8 7 Florida 7 10 10 1 Washington 9 11 6 1 Toronto 8 7 10 Carolina 6 7 11 1 Vancouver 8 9 11 1 Here are our drafted players : Horvat, Demko, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Rathbone, Podkolzin, Hoglander No #1's that is for sure, but not a bad group of players, and pretty much top 10 comparable. Younger that is for sure, but comparable. So was it the trades or the Signing that put these guys over the top? Or was it just pure luck ? Or a little of each? What do you all think, is there any thing that pops out at you, or is it a mute issue? I also find it interesting that Carolina, Colorado and the Rangers all only have 6 drafted players on their teams, Florida has 7. As a foot note.....Benning's last 3 trades..............Miller, OEL and Garland are all solid middle to above average players............... I am not sure what to make of this? Having a good prospect pool helps make trades. A lot of the drafted players on these great teams are top players in the league. A bunch of which are better players than what we have drafted. There are a lot of variables in what you are getting into once you go into more depth. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Tampa's an anomaly TBH, striking gold at the top of the draft (Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilievskiy) but also finding hidden gems outside the first round (Point, Kucherov, Palat, Cirelli, Colton, Killorn). It also doesn't hurt that their management is so good at building around the periphery with signings and trades (trading Drouin for Sergachev, Bishop for Cernak and McDonagh for a couple of depth players and early picks, plus getting Hagel at his bargain contract, also adding grit in Perry/ Maroon/ Paul/ Nash). They also don't really have any bad contracts (on CapFriendly it shows that they have their elite talents, then the depth on an entirely different paygrade with no middle priced contracts, like we do with Dickinson/ Poolman). Hopefully JR and PA can swap the bad contracts for more efficient guys, but until then our team construction isn't really at that level yet. We do have Demko and some pieces up front, but the back end really needs work. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 31 minutes ago, Phil_314 said: Tampa's an anomaly TBH, striking gold at the top of the draft (Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilievskiy) but also finding hidden gems outside the first round (Point, Kucherov, Palat, Cirelli, Colton, Killorn). It also doesn't hurt that their management is so good at building around the periphery with signings and trades (trading Drouin for Sergachev, Bishop for Cernak and McDonagh for a couple of depth players and early picks, plus getting Hagel at his bargain contract, also adding grit in Perry/ Maroon/ Paul/ Nash). They also don't really have any bad contracts (on CapFriendly it shows that they have their elite talents, then the depth on an entirely different paygrade with no middle priced contracts, like we do with Dickinson/ Poolman). Hopefully JR and PA can swap the bad contracts for more efficient guys, but until then our team construction isn't really at that level yet. We do have Demko and some pieces up front, but the back end really needs work. JR has said several times we have Demko, Petey, and Hughes to build around. Everyone else is expendable to build the supporting group. To do that though we need picks, prospects and cap space. Something Benning didn’t leave us much. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Just now, Alflives said: JR has said several times we have Demko, Petey, and Hughes to build around. Everyone else is expendable to build the supporting group. To do that though we need picks, prospects and cap space. Something Benning didn’t leave us much. Hughes is special for sure, but our team could really still use either an all-round, big RHD or one who's got a combination of size, defensive chops and shot. #1 D are rarely just puck-movers who don't pack a punch in other ways (Hedman's all-round, guys like Fox/ Makar/ Josi/ Karlsson in his hey day all combine speed and a devastating slap shot from the point). It is true that everyone else is expendable to support the core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 43 minutes ago, Phil_314 said: Tampa's an anomaly TBH, striking gold at the top of the draft (Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilievskiy) but also finding hidden gems outside the first round (Point, Kucherov, Palat, Cirelli, Colton, Killorn). It also doesn't hurt that their management is so good at building around the periphery with signings and trades (trading Drouin for Sergachev, Bishop for Cernak and McDonagh for a couple of depth players and early picks, plus getting Hagel at his bargain contract, also adding grit in Perry/ Maroon/ Paul/ Nash). They also don't really have any bad contracts (on CapFriendly it shows that they have their elite talents, then the depth on an entirely different paygrade with no middle priced contracts, like we do with Dickinson/ Poolman). Hopefully JR and PA can swap the bad contracts for more efficient guys, but until then our team construction isn't really at that level yet. We do have Demko and some pieces up front, but the back end really needs work. The bolded part is the key for any team to become a contender. You have to be able to develop from within and get some nice surprises (players who exceed their draft position). Look at our 2011 team Kesler - When drafted, believed to be a 3c at best Burrows - never drafted Bieksa - 5th round pick who became a pillar on defense Edler - late 3rd round pick Hansen - 9th round pick (when they had that many rounds), 5th to last player taken What you see there is a MAJOR part of the core of the team who was drafted and exceeded their potential. And interestingly, what you see in all of those names is one common characteristic - compete......In a cap world, this becomes even more important as signing UFA's usually means overpaying, and trades are harder and harder these days. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble 6 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Underlying two of the categories you listed is cap management. I think cap management puts you in a position to acquire or sign good players at opportune times. Benning was trash at managing his cap space, but he recognized after the bubble that these core players are good enough to build around. Now we are going to find out which players JR sees as core players but the list so far is Pettersson, Hughes and Demko. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman491 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 I think the key to the FA signings is what tier of free agent you are chasing. In Tampa Bay's case they are not trying to find a top tier FA to plug a hole in their roster. A team like Edmonton and NY have both over paid free agents to get them to sign. In NY's case it is going to hurt them when their young forwards are out of their ELCs. I think the best recipe is to draft your top end talent and win a trade or two, then fill out the depth with FA signings. That will ensure you are never overpaying your free agents. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post iinatcc Posted June 13, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2022 8 hours ago, Phil_314 said: Tampa's an anomaly TBH, striking gold at the top of the draft (Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilievskiy) but also finding hidden gems outside the first round (Point, Kucherov, Palat, Cirelli, Colton, Killorn). It also doesn't hurt that their management is so good at building around the periphery with signings and trades (trading Drouin for Sergachev, Bishop for Cernak and McDonagh for a couple of depth players and early picks, plus getting Hagel at his bargain contract, also adding grit in Perry/ Maroon/ Paul/ Nash). They also don't really have any bad contracts (on CapFriendly it shows that they have their elite talents, then the depth on an entirely different paygrade with no middle priced contracts, like we do with Dickinson/ Poolman). Hopefully JR and PA can swap the bad contracts for more efficient guys, but until then our team construction isn't really at that level yet. We do have Demko and some pieces up front, but the back end really needs work. Basically in other words Tampa has a management team that knows what they are doing. Since they can hit it out in every area in talent acquisition. 1 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 10 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said: So, I was on Cap Friendly and noticed the bar graph at the bottom of the Team, before the prospects..............I found it interesting the make up of their teams and how the players were acquired. Here are the following teams and their break downs............ Drafted Traded Signed (UFA) Waivers Offer Sheet Tampa Bay 10 7 6 1 Colorado 6 12 6 1 NY Rangers 6 13 6 Edmonton 10 5 12 STL 10 8 6 Calgary 9 8 7 Florida 7 10 10 1 Washington 9 11 6 1 Toronto 8 7 10 Carolina 6 7 11 1 Vancouver 8 9 11 1 Here are our drafted players : Horvat, Demko, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Rathbone, Podkolzin, Hoglander No #1's that is for sure, but not a bad group of players, and pretty much top 10 comparable. Younger that is for sure, but comparable. So was it the trades or the Signing that put these guys over the top? Or was it just pure luck ? Or a little of each? What do you all think, is there any thing that pops out at you, or is it a mute issue? I also find it interesting that Carolina, Colorado and the Rangers all only have 6 drafted players on their teams, Florida has 7. As a foot note.....Benning's last 3 trades..............Miller, OEL and Garland are all solid middle to above average players............... I am not sure what to make of this? it means there's more than one way to get it done, but you have to have success in all 3 areas to some degree. Benning made his biggest blunders on the UFA side, which we are hopefully free from after this season. That at leasts gives Rutherford a chance at making major improvements in trades and UFAs. The drafting is what it is for this core, its unlikely imo that more than one or two guys drafted this year have an impact on todays core within 4 years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzle Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 36 minutes ago, iinatcc said: Basically in other words Tampa has a management team that knows what they are doing. Since they can hit it out in every area in talent acquisition. Basically in other words, Tampa was incredibly lucky at the drafts on multiple occasions. Do you even remember when Tampa was a decent/mediocre team? Things take time for a team to shape up. Tampa's number one reason for them being good was drafting. While Tampa was competitive, they were ALSO able to make use of their draft picks and strike gold. As another poster said, their success has largely been anomalies rather than the norm. Gillis may have helped ice a competitive team, but he also made poor draft choices/had poor development. Added to that, he did trade picks away as well, leading to a total erosion of the prospect pool that had been developed so far. It's time that people realize that simply pushing to win is not good enough. When you have a massive hole of drafting for a good half a decade, you are not likely going to be successful in the long term. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, Dazzle said: Basically in other words, Tampa was incredibly lucky at the drafts on multiple occasions. Do you even remember when Tampa was a decent/mediocre team? Things take time for a team to shape up. Tampa's number one reason for them being good was drafting. While Tampa was competitive, they were ALSO able to make use of their draft picks and strike gold. As another poster said, their success has largely been anomalies rather than the norm. Gillis may have helped ice a competitive team, but he also made poor draft choices/had poor development. Added to that, he did trade picks away as well, leading to a total erosion of the prospect pool that had been developed so far. It's time that people realize that simply pushing to win is not good enough. When you have a massive hole of drafting for a good half a decade, you are not likely going to be successful in the long term. you need to draft "elite" most of the time. We do have 3 guys capable of having elite years - Demko, Hughes and Petey. Thankfully thats in 3 different and very important positions. We also have some really good support pieces in Bo, Miller, OEL, Garland and hopefully Boeser gets back to form next year. Podz looks like he might be able to join this group sooner than later. The rest? thats where Rutherford needs to shine in some smart trades and UFA signings. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Dazzle said: Basically in other words, Tampa was incredibly lucky at the drafts on multiple occasions. Do you even remember when Tampa was a decent/mediocre team? Things take time for a team to shape up. Tampa's number one reason for them being good was drafting. While Tampa was competitive, they were ALSO able to make use of their draft picks and strike gold. As another poster said, their success has largely been anomalies rather than the norm. Gillis may have helped ice a competitive team, but he also made poor draft choices/had poor development. Added to that, he did trade picks away as well, leading to a total erosion of the prospect pool that had been developed so far. It's time that people realize that simply pushing to win is not good enough. When you have a massive hole of drafting for a good half a decade, you are not likely going to be successful in the long term. When you are lucky too many times, it's probably not considered luck anymore. At this point it's called good judgment. And yes you are right, Tampa's "wins" were anomalies as well as potentially 3 cups in a row in a Hard cap world. So yeah Tampa is doing what other teams aren't doing as well. Signing elite players to good deals, drafting well, and making good key trades. Tampa basically has the midas touch. I dare any team that can sign a player of Hedman's caliber to a long term deal under 8 Million, that's a genius move by the organization. Kucherov making 1.5 Million less than guys like Marner, that's a picasso. Also even if Tampa was mediocre for a spell they still made it to the playoffs more often than they didn't. So a combination of a winning culture + doing everything right outside the rink was the key to Tampa's success. Edited June 13, 2022 by iinatcc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Dazzle said: Basically in other words, Tampa was incredibly lucky at the drafts on multiple occasions. Do you even remember when Tampa was a decent/mediocre team? Things take time for a team to shape up. Tampa's number one reason for them being good was drafting. While Tampa was competitive, they were ALSO able to make use of their draft picks and strike gold. As another poster said, their success has largely been anomalies rather than the norm. Gillis may have helped ice a competitive team, but he also made poor draft choices/had poor development. Added to that, he did trade picks away as well, leading to a total erosion of the prospect pool that had been developed so far. It's time that people realize that simply pushing to win is not good enough. When you have a massive hole of drafting for a good half a decade, you are not likely going to be successful in the long term. 8 years ... Almost a decade, Nonis last 3 were duds too. Edler/Hansen was the last good draft (Nonis) the team had before Horvat's ... It's also why JB tried to fill the tweener spots with Bear and Vey... Edited June 13, 2022 by IBatch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, IBatch said: 8 years ... Almost a decade, Nonis last 3 were duds too. Edler/Hansen was the last good draft (Nonis) the team had before Horvat's ... It's also why JB tried to fill the tweener spots with Bear and Vey... Let's not forget Benning comparing Sutter to Patrice Bergeron 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, iinatcc said: When you are lucky too many times, it's probably not considered luck anymore. And yes you are right, Tampa's "wins" were anomalies as well as potentially 3 cups in a row in a Hard cap world. So yeah Tampa is doing what other teams aren't doing as well. Signing elite players to good deals, drafting well, and making good key trades. Tampa basically has the midas touch. I dare any team that can sign a player of Hedman's caliber to a long term deal under 8 Million, that's a genius move by the organization. Kucherov making 1.5 Million less than guys like Marner, that's a picasso. Also even if Tampa was mediocre for a spell they still made it to the playoffs more often than they didn't. So a combination of a winning culture + doing everything right outside the rink was the key to Tampa's success. - Only four teams can compete with Tampa Bays tax rates ... that's it. They look like "team friendly" deals - but once you add the overall money into it and compare what was reportedly offered (Stamkos is the easiest to go because it was made public), the overall take home pay is virtually the same, and some of these guys won't be finishing their last season. Apparent discounts is a better way to put it. SJ and TO we're willing to give a lot more ... but Stamkos signed for "less" only in cap - not actual dollars, 34.6% compared to 53% is a ton of dough ... 8 goes up to 9.5 etc ... JT Miller has lost 800k of take home pay each year he's been a Canuck. Edited June 13, 2022 by IBatch 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 55 minutes ago, JM_ said: it means there's more than one way to get it done, but you have to have success in all 3 areas to some degree. Benning made his biggest blunders on the UFA side, which we are hopefully free from after this season. That at leasts gives Rutherford a chance at making major improvements in trades and UFAs. The drafting is what it is for this core, its unlikely imo that more than one or two guys drafted this year have an impact on todays core within 4 years. Benning also burned a lot of draft capital not just before but this year, leaving the prospect pool pretty dry. Having a good core is good but the lack of draft picks has lead to either lack of players in the system to help support the core or lead to overpaying for these supporting players. Tampa's strength is that they could always replace certain players with guys in their system, something Benning never bothered to do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, iinatcc said: Let's not forget Benning comparing Sutter to Patrice Bergeron Foundational. Sutter was ok - aside from injuries ... LE was awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 I think the taxation point seems to be more important when they are re-signing their own players and getting their discount there, then being able to have that incredible depth, because they can go out and get those middle low end fillers that are just a little higher up the food chain.......... That and drafting well over a long period of time.......... So, some of it is team made, some of it is external, aka tax relief 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 55 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said: I think the taxation point seems to be more important when they are re-signing their own players and getting their discount there, then being able to have that incredible depth, because they can go out and get those middle low end fillers that are just a little higher up the food chain.......... That and drafting well over a long period of time.......... So, some of it is team made, some of it is external, aka tax relief Yes. Also as far as finding those filler players, especially depth ones on cheap deals, each city/team has there own attractions on a variable scale. WNP vs TO/NYR for example...not quite the same is it? At least 50% of the league still is filled from Canadian players more or less - but some of those teams just seem to be at a distinct disadvantage these days especially. Players have a lot more choices. Friedman wrote about this last off season - covid restrictions, media and fan hyperactivity in Canadian cities, and the big one - taxes came up for reasons US cities often get them. Being a contender for sure adds to the allure of playing for a cup too. Vancouver, back in the 2010ish peak Sedin era was a destination because we were a contender, not as many non-state tax teams existed and BC was equal with both Alberta teams, under 50% ... 7th least taxed team in the league. Now we are the most taxed team tied with TO/OTT and MTL...34.6-53% is a massive difference in take home pay. Recently we've seen Ontario born hockey players go home to TO, and think that won't stop, at least while they are a good team (which they are) ... New York has attracted free agents for as long as i can remember. Right now it's Tampa Bay, Vegas, Dallas, Miami, and a recent addition to the no tax club, Seattle. Remarkable that JT Miller loses 800 plus K a year in salary playing in Vancouver compared to the deal he signed in TB. It's also why you can see a range ... If the average fan can look this stuff up - what tips are the players getting from their agents? Miller signing for 7 x 7 say in COL - is like signing for 8.25 x 7 here.... Only the CALi and New York teams approach what Alberta teams (lesser provincial taxes) get paid. Edit: I didn't really see this as much of a problem a decade ago but now i do. The final four ... and the final two teams. I've definitely noticed a pattern. It can't be a coincidence that the teams paying the least tax or close to it, seem to be climbing the ladder and often in the final four. NYI and MTL being the exception. With parity it definitely gives some teams an edge. And on that - i like things not being so vanilla, actually rooting for TB this year. And if it was our team i'd be buying "118 million over the cap" t-shirts too. First actual dynasty we've had since the Oilers. Edited June 13, 2022 by IBatch 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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