[Discussion] Canucks retool 2022 vs Av's retool 2017

[Crabcakes]

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/what-can-the-canucks-learn-from-the-avalanche-retool-5484313

 

Good article by Daniel Wagner drawing parallels between the Canucks long rebuild (or whatever you call it) to the Av's long rebuild which had been going on for 6 years in 2017 when Sakic made multiple moves including the Duchene trade that collectively torched most of the team who wasn't the core.

 

This is one option for the Canucks.  Should they go there or should they tinker around the edges like Rutherford suggests.

 

Does what they do depend on whether they can come to terms with JT Miller?

 

I think that Joe Sakic was tremendously lucky with the Duchene trade.  Could Allvin do the same with Miller or a package involving Miller?

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/what-can-the-canucks-learn-from-the-avalanche-retool-5484313

 

Good article by Daniel Wagner drawing parallels between the Canucks long rebuild (or whatever you call it) to the Av's long rebuild which had been going on for 6 years in 2017 when Sakic made multiple moves including the Duchene trade that collectively torched most of the team who wasn't the core.

 

This is one option for the Canucks.  Should they go there or should they tinker around the edges like Rutherford suggests.

 

Does what they do depend on whether they can come to terms with JT Miller?

 

I think that Joe Sakic was tremendously lucky with the Duchene trade.  Could Allvin do the same with Miller or a package involving Miller?

Would our owner support a GM who says we need to do what Sakic did?  Our owner (IMHAO) will never allow us to rebuild properly, like Little Joe did for the Avs.  Sakic traded away ROR and Duchene!  Are we trading both Miller and Bo?  Love to see it, but no way our owner will allow that.  

[NucknAsia]

16 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/what-can-the-canucks-learn-from-the-avalanche-retool-5484313

 

Good article by Daniel Wagner drawing parallels between the Canucks long rebuild (or whatever you call it) to the Av's long rebuild which had been going on for 6 years in 2017 when Sakic made multiple moves including the Duchene trade that collectively torched most of the team who wasn't the core.

 

This is one option for the Canucks.  Should they go there or should they tinker around the edges like Rutherford suggests.

 

Does what they do depend on whether they can come to terms with JT Miller?

 

I think that Joe Sakic was tremendously lucky with the Duchene trade.  Could Allvin do the same with Miller or a package involving Miller?

One of the best articles I've seen. Exactly the process they need to take.... but as alf says, the issue is Francesco.

 

My fear is the "core" is not the core that can win a cup but we keep them and keep tinkering, basically just repeating Benning's errors but that may be slightly better give the minds / management team.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

One of the best articles I've seen. Exactly the process they need to take.... but as alf says, the issue is Francesco.

 

My fear is the "core" is not the core that can win a cup but we keep them and keep tinkering, basically just repeating Benning's errors but that may be slightly better give the minds / management team.

Benning's error wasn't drafting, acquiring, developing a new core after the aging team that Gillis left him.  It was surrounding that core with enough decent supplementary players.  And of course, the head coach.

[wai_lai416]

lol if he wanna be lucky like the duchene trade should look into trading miller to boston.. with charlie mcavoy out for 6 months and marchand out for awhile and bergeron possibly retiring.. boston might be in for a rough decline

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol if he wanna be lucky like the duchene trade should look into trading miller to boston.. with charlie mcavoy out for 6 months and marchand out for awhile and bergeron possibly retiring.. boston might be in for a rough decline

Only thing is they don't have an incredible amount of assets due to being in the playoff picture for so long.

[NucknAsia]

11 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Benning's error wasn't drafting, acquiring, developing a new core after the aging team that Gillis left him.  It was surrounding that core with enough decent supplementary players.  And of course, the head coach.

His errors were in all areas.

 

Drafting? Juolevi and Virtanen. You CANNOT afford to miss on two top 5/6 picks in a row, That has been a huge setback for this franchise. Mcann over Pastrnak and Adrian Kempe. 

 

His only picks who've made a difference were Petey and Hughes. Petey was a great pick, Hughes anyone would have taken at that spot. Not sure if drafted Demko but if so, another good one. Boeser was a solid pick but Aho, Konecky, Carlo, Czernak go after...

 

But beyond those, who has been great? He was supposed to be some drafting savant...where are the other players? A #5 and a #7 overall who've done well, and bad misses on a #5 and #6 is not good drafting. He  basically did nothing beyond first round picks and failed miserable there too...

 

The idea that he was a great scout does not seem to align with the players we've drafted and who are in our lineup now. 

 

 

Trading away second round picks for players like Vey, Baerschi, etc

OEL Garland trade - basically taking a one year problem and making it worse for 6-7 years

Dickenson, on and on

Development - A lack of any real development other than players chosen very high in the draft

Look at his trading record - he lost the vast majority of trades by a wide margin

 

Jim Benning Trade History - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

His signings

 

Boeser QO - way too much

UFA's - Throwing money at everyone who asked and term on UFA's (Errikson)

 

From drafting, to pro scouting, to UFA's to trades he was a disaster.....come on man.

Edited June 17, 2022 by NucknAsia

[NucknAsia]

26 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol if he wanna be lucky like the duchene trade should look into trading miller to boston.. with charlie mcavoy out for 6 months and marchand out for awhile and bergeron possibly retiring.. boston might be in for a rough decline

I'd be really surprised to see Bergeron retire. He had one of his best offensive seasons, won the Selke, and was ridiculous in all the fancy stat categories.

 

I get he may be tired, and physically its demanding on him as he ages but damn, he's still at the top of his game. When a player is dropping off I get why they may want to hang them up.

 

Regardless, Miller will be needed if they don't want to blow it up. They don't really have a true 2c. I suspect they will go very hard at Kadri though. My expectation is Miller (if Moved) will happen after the top UFA centers are gobbled up (Giroux, Trocheck, Strome, Kadri). There's a different flavour there for many teams, shorter term contracts, mid term, longer term centers. 

 

Teams will prefer not to give up assets.

 

Then if they miss out on who they want, the teams left will start bidding for Miller or Bo.

Edited June 17, 2022 by NucknAsia

[VanCan2023]

13 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

I'd be really surprised to see Bergeron retire. He had his best offensive season ever, and won the Selke. I get he may be tired, and physically its demanding on him as he ages but damn, he's still at the top of his game. When a player is dropping off I get why they may want to hang them up.

 

Regardless, Miller will be needed if they don't want to blow it up. They don't really have a true 2c. I suspect they will go very hard at Kadri though. My expectation is Miller (if Moved) will happen after the top UFA centers are gobbled up (Giroux, Trocheck, Strome, Kadri). There's a different flavour there for many teams, shorter term contracts, mid term, longer term centers. 

 

Teams will prefer not to give up assets.

 

Then if they miss out on who they want, the teams left will start bidding for Miller or Bo.

Funny thing is all those 6 players (typically) play the game hard, which normally does not have the longevity career as the softer players. Other than Bo, I wouldn't sighn any for over four years. The contenders are win now mode now, not looking for a long term contract. Teams that are approx 4+ years away are not looking for long term aging studs. Teams that are almost there but still need a year or two would be interested. Teams like Vancouver... Just saying. 

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, NucknAsia said:

I'd be really surprised to see Bergeron retire. He had one of his best offensive seasons, won the Selke, and was ridiculous in all the fancy stat categories.

 

I get he may be tired, and physically its demanding on him as he ages but damn, he's still at the top of his game. When a player is dropping off I get why they may want to hang them up.

 

Regardless, Miller will be needed if they don't want to blow it up. They don't really have a true 2c. I suspect they will go very hard at Kadri though. My expectation is Miller (if Moved) will happen after the top UFA centers are gobbled up (Giroux, Trocheck, Strome, Kadri). There's a different flavour there for many teams, shorter term contracts, mid term, longer term centers. 

 

Teams will prefer not to give up assets.

 

Then if they miss out on who they want, the teams left will start bidding for Miller or Bo.

i still see boston declining and struggling if they wont have mcavoy for 6 months marchand for 5 month.. + the goalie situation will have to lean on swayman.. pasternak not wanting to re-sign unless they fire sweeney etc.. trading miller to boston have a decent chance to get a top 15 pick for sure

[EddieVedder]

I stopped reading when he wrote horvat isnt part of the core.

It makes zero sense that you identify petey, qh and demko core pieces but not bo and podz.

 

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, EddieVedder said:

I stopped reading when he wrote horvat isnt part of the core.

It makes zero sense that you identify petey, qh and demko core pieces but not bo and podz.

 

Depends how we define core.  

Goalie

top D

number one centre

scoring winger

 

Bo isn’t in that group.  Bo is our (currently) 3C.  

[runtzguy]

33 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Depends how we define core.  

Goalie

top D

number one centre

scoring winger

 

Bo isn’t in that group.  Bo is our (currently) 3C.  

 Bo is our 3C ? The disrespect and laughable "knowledge" of hockey among this board is incredible.   

[Pears]

1 hour ago, runtzguy said:

 Bo is our 3C ? The disrespect and laughable "knowledge" of hockey among this board is incredible.   

I mean it isn’t outlandish. Miller is only playing center in Vancouver if he stays and Bo isn’t better than Petey, so as of right now yeah he is our 3C which isn’t a bad thing at all really. If you got a guy like Bo as your 3C you should be in pretty good shape imo. 

[Phil_314]

17 hours ago, Alflives said:

Depends how we define core.  

Goalie

top D

number one centre

scoring winger

 

Bo isn’t in that group.  Bo is our (currently) 3C.  

I'd have to disagree - that definition tears things too far down (to full rebuild), when there are guys outside of that group who provide value to build around.  
One of Bo/ Miller (2nd C), both Podkolzin/ Hoglander (ELC players with potential), likely one of Boeser/ Garland (W) and probably Schenn (OEL's probably too pricey to trade) should be the retained core.  The rest can be traded/ unsigned, etc.  (alternatively, they can really retool and put Petey as that scoring winger while keeping both Miller and Horvat up the middle, then trade Boeser AND Garland).

_____ - Petey - W
_____ - 2nd C - Podz
Hog - _______ - _______
____ - ______ - _______

Hughes - ________
OEL - ___________
_______ - Schenn

Demko  

Edited June 17, 2022 by Phil_314

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Alflives said:

Depends how we define core.  

Goalie

top D

number one centre

scoring winger

 

Bo isn’t in that group.  Bo is our (currently) 3C.  

Bo played more minutes than Petey; killed penalties, 2knd PP, 1st at times, scored 30 goals, took any and all key draws (#1 in the league).

 

Was 2knd in TOI for forwards at 19:31 a game. Played against the best opposing forwards, and in our end.

 

If you like fancy stats? Had a 56% Corsi for rating, now above 50% for the 5th straight year!

 

These are outstanding #'s approaching all star 2C performance levels.

 

Our team Captain.

 

 

Bo has also represented the Canucks as an NHL All Star 2017. Careful what you wish for; when it might be staring you in the face...

 

 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Bo played more minutes than Petey; killed penalties, 2knd PP, 1st at times, scored 30 goals, took any and all key draws (#1 in the league).

 

Was 2knd in TOI for forwards at 19:31 a game. Played against the best opposing forwards, and in our end.

 

If you like fancy stats? Had a 56% Corsi for rating, now above 50% for the 5th straight year!

 

These are outstanding #'s approaching all star 2C performance levels.

 

Our team Captain.

 

 

Bo has also represented the Canucks as an NHL All Star 2017. Careful what you wish for; when it might be staring you in the face...

 

 

Miller

Petey

Bo

 

We have very good centre depth.  But Bo is three on that list.  

 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Miller

Petey

Bo

 

We have very good centre depth.  But Bo is three on that list.  

 

and this ^ is a very good thing. Its why I don't want to see our C depth blown up, this is the kind of depth you win with imo. JR's job is getting the right support for these guys imo. 

[higgyfan]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Miller

Petey

Bo

 

We have very good centre depth.  But Bo is three on that list.  

 

Pete is 'potentially' a #1 center, but until he can stand on his own, without having someone taking face offs

for him, he can't be considered a true C.  Pete sharing a line with Miller, immediately reduces the team to 2 top

6 Cs, with Bo as the #2.  The team is still in need of a #3C.

[NucknAsia]

38 minutes ago, JM_ said:

and this ^ is a very good thing. Its why I don't want to see our C depth blown up, this is the kind of depth you win with imo. JR's job is getting the right support for these guys imo. 

Well because you can't pay a 3c 7 mil bucks