[Discussion] Canucks retool 2022 vs Av's retool 2017

[Drewman]

I really don't see how Elias can be considered out #1 centre with how abysmal his FO's have been. Until he can at least crack close to 50% I just see him as a winger and Miller as our #1C, with Bo as #2. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Drewman said:

I really don't see how Elias can be considered out #1 centre with how abysmal his FO's have been. Until he can at least crack close to 50% I just see him as a winger and Miller as our #1C, with Bo as #2. 

Petey is better without the puck that both Miller and Bo.  Miller and Bo kind of cheat a bit for offence.  Petey doesn’t.  

[Crabcakes]

8 hours ago, VegasCanuck said:

But, those are proposals here, we have no real idea what was actually proposed at the deadline, or what might be proposed this summer.

 

I agree though, if the return needs to justify the trade.

And like Sakic did with Duchene, you have to be patient to get your price.  I'm not advocating for a Miller trade but IF that's what they decide, it ABSOLUTELY MUST bring the right kind of a return.  Otherwise, why on earth would you do it?  Miller is a helluva player.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but Sakic took over a year to pull the trigger on Duchene and it took Ottawa, who felt they were 1 piece away from winning a cup to pay the big price.  Is there a team out there who thinks they're in that position? 

[Drewman]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Petey is better without the puck that both Miller and Bo.  Miller and Bo kind of cheat a bit for offence.  Petey doesn’t.  

But he's not better at winning the puck in a faceoff is my point. Yes he's our top player for takeaways (tied with Miller) but he's also one of the top give-away players. I don't know, maybe I'm old school with the notion your top centre needs to get you puck possession instead of chasing the puck for possession.

[hammertime]

14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Petey is better without the puck that both Miller and Bo.  Miller and Bo kind of cheat a bit for offence.  Petey doesn’t.  

Well I guess that's a good thing because as our 1c without Milller or Bo he won't have the puck very much. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by hammertime

[Alflives]

15 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Well I guess that's a good thing because as our 1c without Milller or Bo he won't have the puck very much. 

One of Miller or Bo will be traded soon.  And the team can move ahead with Petey.  He’s an amazing player.  We are lucky to have him.  Miller is a good player.  Bo is an okay player.  

[hammertime]

26 minutes ago, Alflives said:

One of Miller or Bo will be traded soon.  And the team can move ahead with Petey.  He’s an amazing player.  We are lucky to have him.  Miller is a good player.  Bo is an okay player.  

But why? I like them. Without them are we a playoff team? I think once you trade either them were in for at least 2 years of missing the playoffs at which point Pete demands a trade.  

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, hammertime said:

But why? I like them. Without them are we a playoff team? I think once you trade either them were in for at least 2 years of missing the playoffs at which point Pete demands a trade.  

Maybe one step back now so we can take two leaps ahead in a couple years?  

Like what Sakic did.  Step back trading ROR and Duchene and leap ahead later.  

[hammertime]

Just now, Alflives said:

Maybe one step back now so we can take two leaps ahead in a couple years?  

Like what Sakic did.  Step back trading ROR and Duchene and leap ahead later.  

I think we will be fine if we cut out the fat. Trim Brock, Rathbone, Dowling, Highmore, maybe Hoglander for players that better suit our needs and picks. Add a 3c and a shut down LHD in free agency or via aforementioned trades. Dickinson might even bounce back as a winger he looked better in the 2nd half. If were gonna have to pay to dump Dicky and Poolman and then somehow replace them in the lineup the cost may be a deminishing return over giving them another chance. They were pretty good players for their respective former clubs. 

 

We were pretty good under Bruce. There's a good chance that with a properly constructed roster we could be a competitive team. We're still 2nd in playoff rounds won by a Canadian team in the last decade. In what has been an awful decade in Canucks history. I think we're better now than the "Bubble" team was. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

I'd give the current team just 1 more season and see what they can do. They were a top 10 team under Bruce for more than half a season, I've got faith they'd be a decent playoff team (not yet a contender) next year.

 

If they're a fringe outside-looking-in team next year or worse, I'd be all for blowing it up. Trade pretty much everyone except for Petey, Hughes, Demko, Podkolzin and Bo (he's going down with the ship but for good reason - let him pass the batton of captainship to the next young star) and try to build a new, strong core with high picks.

 

That basically means Boeser, Garland, Miller, Pearson, Myers and Schenn for picks/prospects. Got to think theres 2 A-grade prospects, 2 1sts and some change in there. More importantly, we play AHLers and just bomb hard for 3-4 years. Horvat wastes his career but hopefully Petey, Hughes and Demko are still young enough (in their late 20s) to contribute when the next core is starting their prime.

 

It's painful but it's the recipe to success sadly and not many teams make the SCF without doing it that way.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 6/17/2022 at 6:05 PM, Alflives said:

Petey is better without the puck that both Miller and Bo.  Miller and Bo kind of cheat a bit for offence.  Petey doesn’t.  

Haven't looked at the "stats" but I'd gather Petey if facing the opposition better checkers.  Miller is a natural winger but used as a center because there was nobody better in the lineup.  Bo handles the tougher defensive assignments (likely facing the opposition better offensive forwards).  Easier to look better without the puck when you're not worried about the opposition scoring goals against you.

[mll]

On 6/18/2022 at 4:06 AM, Alflives said:

Maybe one step back now so we can take two leaps ahead in a couple years?  

Like what Sakic did.  Step back trading ROR and Duchene and leap ahead later.  

They didn't take a step back to make a leap.

 

They were already at the bottom of the standings when they made Duchene available.  They finished 21pts behind the next team when they decided they were going to rebuild.  The Duchene trade came about a few weeks into the following season.  They haven't missed the playoffs since he was traded.  

 

RoR was traded because they had a rigid salary cap structure and were not going to pay him more than their best player.  He was going to walk to UFA so they traded him. They tried to remain competitive without him and that plan failed.

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by mll

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, mll said:

They didn't take a step back to make a leap.

 

They were already at the bottom of the standings when they made Duchene available.  They finished 21pts behind the next team when they decided they were going to rebuild.  The Duchene trade came about a few weeks into the following season.  They haven't missed the playoffs since he was traded.  

 

RoR was traded because they had a rigid salary cap structure and were not going to pay him more than their best player.  He was going to walk to UFA so they traded him. They tried to remain competitive without him and that plan failed.

 

this ^ is important info for comparing what the AV's did vs what people think Rutherford might/should do. It wasn't a simple case of stepping back. 

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, mll said:

They didn't take a step back to make a leap.

 

They were already at the bottom of the standings when they made Duchene available.  They finished 21pts behind the next team when they decided they were going to rebuild.  The Duchene trade came about a few weeks into the following season.  They haven't missed the playoffs since he was traded.  

 

RoR was traded because they had a rigid salary cap structure and were not going to pay him more than their best player.  He was going to walk to UFA so they traded him. They tried to remain competitive without him and that plan failed.

 

Avs clearly took a step back moving ROR and Duchene.  It was a great move by Little Joe.  It’s what we should do too, but we won’t.  Our owner would never allow us to dive to the bottom like the Avs did.  

[DrJockitch]

11 minutes ago, mll said:

They didn't take a step back to make a leap.

 

They were already at the bottom of the standings when they made Duchene available.  They finished 21pts behind the next team when they decided they were going to rebuild.  The Duchene trade came about a few weeks into the following season.  They haven't missed the playoffs since he was traded.  

 

RoR was traded because they had a rigid salary cap structure and were not going to pay him more than their best player.  He was going to walk to UFA so they traded him. They tried to remain competitive without him and that plan failed.

 

And that especially bad year got them Makar, their best player.  
I do feel like we were kind of in the spot they were before the one terrible year which is why if we are going to burn assets it needs to be for high end pics/prospects.

I am curious to see how aggressive we get but given ownerships record I worry we are just tinkering around the edges. 
‘My hope is that JR looks at the team like he did the front office and mostly restructures it. 
 

[mll]

30 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Avs clearly took a step back moving ROR and Duchene.  It was a great move by Little Joe.  It’s what we should do too, but we won’t.  Our owner would never allow us to dive to the bottom like the Avs did.  

They didn't take a step back after trading Duchene and they tried to compete after trading ROR.  

ROR was traded in summer 2015 - they had missed the playoffs that year.  Sakic went on to sign several veterans that off-season including Soderberg in the hope he would replace ROR.  That plan failed.  They missed the playoffs the following 2 seasons.  Sakic finally realised they had to rebuild and made Duchene and Landeskog available that 2016/17 season when they finished last in the standings with only 48pts.  

 

Duchene was traded in Nov 2017 and they went on to make the playoffs that season and haven't missed since.

 

• 2013/14 1st round exit
• 2014/15 missed the playoffs.  ROR traded in summer 2015.
• 2015/16 missed the playoffs.  They gave up picks/prospects to add at that TDL: Matthias and Boedker as rentals + Gelinas with 1 year left.  They still missed the playoffs but adding at the TDL shows that they were looking to compete and not thinking rebuild.
• 2016/17 missed the playoffs.  Finished last in the standings but moved back 3 spots through the lottery.  It's only then that they decided to rebuild.
• 2017/18 made the playoffs and haven't missed since.  Duchene traded in November.

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by mll