[Proposal] Philly - Van

[goblix]

Philly is in need of cap space. Van can accomodate on short term relief if it means an increase in assets...

 

Curious on how realistic this looks for both teams

 

PHI receives:

VAN 15 OA pick

Ferland (3.5m LTIR relief 2.75 actual money )

 

Van receives:

PHI 5 OA pick

JVR (7m cap - 5m actual money)

 

Essentially the value is 10 spots for:

2.75m cash

7m cap space freed up

3.5m cap overage leverage in LTIR.

 

The whole LTIR thing is complicated but I think it allows them to go over the cap by 3.5m which I would think is a good thing for them.

 

Perhaps if someone has a better understanding of the intricacies of LTIR they can explain why it or why not.

Edited July 4, 2022 by goblix

[shiznak]

Highly doubt Philly has any interests in trading that 5th pick unless it’s for a young proven player, like a Pettersson. You look at their prospects pool and it’s as bare as ours. They didn’t have a 1st round pick last year and none of their prospects has made much of an impact, thus far. They also don’t have another pick until the third round, if they happen to trade that 5th overall pick away.

[goblix]

Just now, shiznak said:

Highly doubt Philly has any interests in trading that 5th pick unless it’s for a young proven player, like a Pettersson. You look at their prospects pool and it’s as bare as ours. They didn’t have a 1st round pick last year and none of their prospects has made much of an impact, thus far. They also don’t have another pick until the third round, if they happen to trade that 5th overall pick away.

Really all depends on if they want to "go for it"

Not really arguing I think these types of trades happen in a blue moon but it's well to denote that they would be getting the 15OA in return.

 

Of course there's been many rumors of their interest in Gaudreau... Cap space is highly needed for that to happen.

If they are pretty confident of that happening then 15OA and Gaudreau seems appealing.

[shiznak]

4 minutes ago, goblix said:

Really all depends on if they want to "go for it"

Not really arguing I think these types of trades happen in a blue moon but it's well to denote that they would be getting the 15OA in return.

 

Of course there's been many rumors of their interest in Gaudreau... Cap space is highly needed for that to happen.

If they are pretty confident of that happening then 15OA and Gaudreau seems appealing.

They’re likely trading underachieving players/expiring contracts, in order to clear cap.

 

JVR, Konecny, and Sanhiem are rumoured to be on the block.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

LTIR is indeed complicated. LTIR does allow you to go over the cap, but ferlands cap hit still counts. LTIR is never a positive thing, for many reasons.

1. when you calculate the LTIR if not calculated at the right time you actually lose space. I don't want to get in to it's very complicated.

2. when in LTIR you cannot bank cap space for when the trade deadline approaches.

3. Bonus payments from rookie contracts and 35+ contracts can be paid off with remaining cap left over at the end of the year, BUT not when in LTIR. when in LTIR they get carried over to the next year and it can cost dearly. the canucks have a 1.25 million penalty this year.

 

ferlands LTIR would give you an allowable 86 million in total space but his cap hit still counts against it, you would still only have 82.5 million in space left for other contracts.

 

Ferlands contract is only a negative, but so is JVR's.

 

JVR's is overpaid by maybe 3-4 million, and his actual salary is 5 million. that amount of cap is worth about a second rounder.

 

how much negative value ferlands contract is up for debate. probably less than a secound rounder, but its definitely a negative.

 

that being said, i dont think philly makes this trade.

 

 

 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

LTIR is indeed complicated. LTIR does allow you to go over the cap, but ferlands cap hit still counts. LTIR is never a positive thing, for many reasons.

1. when you calculate the LTIR if not calculated at the right time you actually lose space. I don't want to get in to it's very complicated.

2. when in LTIR you cannot bank cap space for when the trade deadline approaches.

3. Bonus payments from rookie contracts and 35+ contracts can be paid off with remaining cap left over at the end of the year, BUT not when in LTIR. when in LTIR they get carried over to the next year and it can cost dearly. the canucks have a 1.25 million penalty this year.

 

ferlands LTIR would give you an allowable 86 million in total space but his cap hit still counts against it, you would still only have 82.5 million in space left for other contracts.

 

Ferlands contract is only a negative, but so is JVR's.

 

JVR's is overpaid by maybe 3-4 million, and his actual salary is 5 million. that amount of cap is worth about a second rounder.

 

how much negative value ferlands contract is up for debate. probably less than a secound rounder, but its definitely a negative.

 

that being said, i dont think philly makes this trade.

 

 

 

 

Ferland’s contract is worse than a negative since it isn’t insured. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

When you see guys like Pettersson and Hughes taken with around a 5th overall pick, you don't trade them for just cap relief, there's got to be a stud player going back because in this draft a top 5 player is going to be pretty elite. 

[Bad_BOI_pete]

1 hour ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Ferland’s contract is worse than a negative since it isn’t insured. 

I know it's not insured. i said negative value. whats worse than negative value? super super negative value?

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Petey_BOI said:

I know it's not insured. i said negative value. whats worse than negative value? super super negative value?

Super duper  DUUper  negative value is definitely worse. 

[hammertime]

6 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Ferland’s contract is worse than a negative since it isn’t insured. 

haha. I'm not advocating the trade or anything but paying 2.75m for a guy to not play at all and have zero cap hit is far better than paying 7m for JVR.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

I know it's not insured. i said negative value. whats worse than negative value? super super negative value?

There’s a clear difference between a player that is a bit overpaid but still provides some service on the ice.  Even Loui E was an ok 4th defensive winger and his insured contract was greatly front end loaded.  Still big negative value because of his cap hit.  Arizona still was willing to take on his negative value contract because of the actual cash he was to be paid.  Ferland’s contract is worse than that because even the Yotes wouldn’t go near his contract.

 

Ferland will in all likelihood never play hockey again so he serves no purpose even on a team's AHL affiliate.  Uses up 1 of a team's 50 professional contracts slots AND costs a team several million dollars.  It's one thing to pay a guy that much to play on the Abby Canucks (at least a guy like Loui E would play decently enough at level of hockey) but it's another to tell your boss (the owner) I want to acquire a guy that is a "no work job/no show job" (to use a Sopranos reference) without getting one heck of an additional asset to compensate for that.

Edited July 4, 2022 by NewbieCanuckFan

[goblix]

8 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

LTIR is indeed complicated. LTIR does allow you to go over the cap, but ferlands cap hit still counts. LTIR is never a positive thing, for many reasons.

1. when you calculate the LTIR if not calculated at the right time you actually lose space. I don't want to get in to it's very complicated.

2. when in LTIR you cannot bank cap space for when the trade deadline approaches.

3. Bonus payments from rookie contracts and 35+ contracts can be paid off with remaining cap left over at the end of the year, BUT not when in LTIR. when in LTIR they get carried over to the next year and it can cost dearly. the canucks have a 1.25 million penalty this year.

 

ferlands LTIR would give you an allowable 86 million in total space but his cap hit still counts against it, you would still only have 82.5 million in space left for other contracts.

 

Ferlands contract is only a negative, but so is JVR's.

 

JVR's is overpaid by maybe 3-4 million, and his actual salary is 5 million. that amount of cap is worth about a second rounder.

 

how much negative value ferlands contract is up for debate. probably less than a secound rounder, but its definitely a negative.

 

that being said, i dont think philly makes this trade.

Great thoughtful post.

 

My trade was generally based on the Weber trade. I figured there would be some sort of cap gymnastics that a team would abuse the way the lightning has in the past.

 

I suppose Ferland could be removed out of the trade and as you said Canucks probably have to add a bit more especially if the evaluation on the negative value of JVR is a second rounder.

 

Interestingly Patrick Marleau was traded in 2019 with a first round pick with 1 year 4.5m cash. Might be the outlier of values but it's worth noting that these types only really occur when a team has desperation to clear up space. 

[Bad_BOI_pete]

4 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

There’s a clear difference between a player that is a bit overpaid but still provides some service on the ice.  Even Loui E was an ok 4th defensive winger and his insured contract was greatly front end loaded.  Still big negative value because of his cap hit.  Arizona still was willing to take on his negative value contract because of the actual cash he was to be paid.  Ferland’s contract is worse than that because even the Yotes wouldn’t go near his contract.

 

Ferland will in all likelihood never play hockey again so he serves no purpose even on a team's AHL affiliate.  Uses up 1 of a team's 50 professional contracts slots AND costs a team several million dollars.  It's one thing to pay a guy that much to play on the Abby Canucks (at least a guy like Loui E would play decently enough at level of hockey) but it's another to tell your boss (the owner) I want to acquire a guy that is a "no work job/no show job" (to use a Sopranos reference) without getting one heck of an additional asset to compensate for that.

whole heartedly i disagree. when a team makes the playoffs they profit big time. a contract like player name's almost assuredly means you don't make them. making the playoffs is huge not only in the current years profits but the future's because the hype might cause a few fans to shell out for season tickets.

 

player name wasn't even good enough for our basement dwelling team, while Ferland's contract would not effect the team's performance at all.

 

6 million in cap is generally worth a 1st rounder.

 

Marc Staal making 2 million now was traded along with a second rounder in 2020 for considerations. he was overpaid in 2020/2021 by about 3.7 million, hence the second rounder.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Petey_BOI

[Bad_BOI_pete]

2 hours ago, goblix said:

Great thoughtful post.

 

My trade was generally based on the Weber trade. I figured there would be some sort of cap gymnastics that a team would abuse the way the lightning has in the past.

 

I suppose Ferland could be removed out of the trade and as you said Canucks probably have to add a bit more especially if the evaluation on the negative value of JVR is a second rounder.

 

Interestingly Patrick Marleau was traded in 2019 with a first round pick with 1 year 4.5m cash. Might be the outlier of values but it's worth noting that these types only really occur when a team has desperation to clear up space. 

the only thing a little bit fishy was Kucherov coming back for the very first game of the playoffs last year. Many thought he was healthy enough to play near the end of the season. but tampa bay did not ever go over their allowed cap in the regular season, and their is no cap in the playoffs. "Don't hate the player, hate the game" Jeff Jarrett

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Petey_BOI said:

the only thing a little bit fishy was Kucherov coming back for the very first game of the playoffs last year. Many thought he was healthy enough to play near the end of the season. but tampa bay did not ever go over their allowed cap in the regular season, and their is no cap in the playoffs. "Don't hate the player, hate the game" Jeff Jarrett

Anyone who's ever had to recover from an injury ... knows that most have to go back to work way before the doctors say it's ok.   Must be nice working in the NHL ... and this 300% is a grey area.   Not one part of my body that wasn't impacted from work.   And always came back way before it was recommended because bills to pay and customers to serve.   These guys have it a lot better then 99% of the rest of us - and can for sure use it too.   Maybe he wasn't 100% but his 80% was also unreal.    Find me five doctors and you will get five different "opinions".    What i love about him is at least he owned it "18 million over the cap" chugging his beer.