Does anyone have any good guesses as to how they will change the look of our defense?

[RomanP]

16 hours ago, VegasCanuck said:

So, I find it interesting that everyone thinks our defense is that bad, even though, from the time that BB took over the bench, through the end of the season, we were one of the top 5 defenses in the league at 5 on 5. 

 

Even considering the start we has, we finished up tied for 9th overall for lowest goals against in a 32 team league.

 

Granted, Demko had a massive hand in that, and we do need to improve how fast we transition out of our own end, but we are not the Swiss Cheese that many fans seem to want to believe.

 

If we wind up trading Miller, 90% chance it will be for a good, young RD on return. That would free us up to move Myers to create cap space. Not because Myers is a bad defenseman, just because we have too many 6 million plus guys on the blue line and OEL, I’m positive said no to being traded, and Hughes isn’t going anywhere.

 

Part of exiting the zone faster is systems, which I believe is what Rutherford was talking about at year end press conferences. It’s one of the things BB will work on with them in camp.

I was about to write something very similar, good thing I decided to read through all the pages first :-). Do I think we need improvement? For sure. Are we in such a bad shape as many on this board lead you to believe? Absolutely not. We had better goal against stat than 8 teams that made the playoffs. Colorado only allowed 2 goals less than us.

[iceman64]

On 7/10/2022 at 9:49 PM, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

I have been trying to figure out how amazement is going to fix the defense on this club? It just looks so bad if they end up leaving it as is because they are strapped for money. It’s hard to see how they go about changing it. Can they even change it this off-season? Is the plan to just bring the same defense back? It’s really early but I don’t see a lot in free agency. Anyone have any good guesses or thoughts?

It's an easy one, count on Miller being traded for D but younger, can easily see JR doing a trade for 2 Dmen, one top 6, probably 2nd pairing for 3-4.5 mil cap and a 3rd pairing around 2.5 ish and a pick/prospect.

Trade a roster for a pick and make up the 1-2 cap difference. Something like that, don't think it would take that much to make that happen.

 It would help for sure, however we need to improve on D with forwards being good at it and a fast back check to match a fast forecheck that still needs work with consistency. 

 

 Is it a tough balance to find players ready willing and able to do that night in and night out? You bet BUT if any could pull it off I think JR can, I just hope Mgmt remembers what division we're in and make those cpl of D of the bigger type that can skate and has great vision for the first break out pass. 

 

However, lots of times the D looked confused trying to make a long stretch pass rather than a short high percentage and would result in a scoring chance against us. If we're going to be elite, that's the area BB needs to focus on. 

 

We got better at as the season was went on but we were still making the same mistakes in that BUT just not as many as BB simplified it like Green should have done in the first place knowing so many new players were and are going to be filtered in which could rank among the top brain farts among past coaches. 

 

Anyway I hope we get in that..  

 This is still old hat here, something has to give. Soft quick teams don't cut it in the playoffs so let's cross our fingers something is going to change! 

1982 94 2012 with depth please?!

Edited July 12, 2022 by iceman64

[JamesB]

3 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

I still don't get it. Somebody said our defence sucked and then it became some fact that everyone regurgitates like it's unrefutable. Here's a bold prediction. With a full training camp under Bruce and guidance of the new management team, I predict we will finish top 7 in the league for team defence fewest goals allowed. 

...

I think OEL needs to move to the right and play with Hughes. They need to log 28 min a night and leave the other 32 minutes between Myers, Poolman, Schenn, Dermott and Rathbone with one of them sitting every night. 

 

I agree that the criticism of OEL's play last year is misguided.  I created a thread a while ago in which I argued that the underlying data suggest that OEL was as valuable to the team last year as Quinn Hughes.  Yes, Hughes is very good and yes Hughes scored more, but most of the scoring differential was due to Hughes getting far more PP time -- and with the first unit. Hughes improved a lot defensively last year, but OEL was still much more valuable defensively as he had by far the toughest minutes on the team and handled them well. 

 

The question mark about OEL is whether his play will hold up long enough to justify his contract, which continues for five more years at a cap hit of about 7.3 million.  But there is a good chance his play does hold up as he is 30 now. 

 

Apparently the team is actually very positive about OEL and is considering playing him on the right side. I think that makes a lot of sense. There is an advantage to having D's play their natural side but it is not that big and is not big enough to justify using a significantly weaker player just because he shoots right. In the Canucks best year ever their top pairing was Edler and Ehrhoff -- both left shots.  

 

We won't know how things will work until we see OEL and Hughes together but I think they have the potential to be an excellent shutdown/scoring D pair.

 

However, the rest of the D is not at the level of a solid playoff team. Like everyone else I like Schenn a lot, but if he is in your top 4 then your top 4 is not that good. I would see him as a good partner for Rathbone on the third pairing. 

 

That would probably leave Myers and Dermott as the second pairing, which might be ok but is not likely to be any better than that. 

 

I would not count on Poolman given his health problems. And, while his is ok when healthy, he has not shown himself to be a good top 4 D-man. (As Craig Button said when the Canucks signed him, "why are the Canucks trying to corner the market on 3rd pairing defencemen").

 

And we could still see a significant trade or UFA signing that could change things. The Canucks of course realize that the D is the most important area to upgrade and have been focusing on getting a D back in a Miller trade. But who knows if they will ever pull the trigger on a trade. 

[spook007]

8 hours ago, Viper007 said:

I really just had it this way so that OEL can be more offensive minded with Poolman covering for him instead of Myers.  Also Myers provides the big body that Rathbone requires being a little undersized.

I totally agree with the way you look at this... 

My only concern is Myers is too offensively minded to cover for Rathbone. Its a bit like fitting a square peg in a round hole...

Also the reason I think Myers should be dealt to free funds for two more defensive minded RHD...

 

PS. I like Myers and the strength he brings. Thought he played well with OEL, but agree 100% it looks at least as if pairing OEL with Myers reduces OELs offensive out put...

[kanucks25]

7 hours ago, JamesB said:

The question mark about OEL is whether his play will hold up long enough to justify his contract, which continues for five more years at a cap hit of about 7.3 million.  But there is a good chance his play does hold up as he is 30 now.

Interesting logic...

 

7 hours ago, JamesB said:

However, the rest of the D is not at the level of a solid playoff team. Like everyone else I like Schenn a lot, but if he is in your top 4 then your top 4 is not that good. I would see him as a good partner for Rathbone on the third pairing. 

 

That would probably leave Myers and Dermott as the second pairing, which might be ok but is not likely to be any better than that. 

Schenn is only serviceable because he works well with Hughes. He's a 6/7 in pretty much any other scenario.

 

Myers and Dermott as the 2nd pairing "might be ok"? One guy needs a babysitter if he's to be effective in a top-4 role and the other guy has struggled to be an everyday player for multiple seasons. This has yikes written all over it.

 

I don't know if Hughes - OEL would work but if they did do that, our bottom-4 is simply atrocious.

Edited July 12, 2022 by kanucks25

[kloubek]

I don't know what they have planned, but I'd like to see Poolman and Myers moved to free up the right side. Then if we either keep Miller or a good defenseman not coming back, I'd like to see:

Hughes Manson/Marino
OEL Lyubushkin
Rathbone Schenn
Dermott

To me, this gives us a proper pairing for Hughes. It allows OEL to be slightly more offensive and gives us a good hitter to pair him with. Then assuming Rathbone is going to be played (which it appears, given his 1-way contract) he has size and defensive acumen as his pairing partner. No, it's still not a star-studded D, but I think it gives us a generally solid ROLE-PLAYING group.

[kanucks25]

9 hours ago, RomanP said:

I was about to write something very similar, good thing I decided to read through all the pages first :-). Do I think we need improvement? For sure. Are we in such a bad shape as many on this board lead you to believe? Absolutely not. We had better goal against stat than 8 teams that made the playoffs. Colorado only allowed 2 goals less than us.

Even if the situation on defense isn't as dire as it may appear, the issue may be the potential for better.

 

OEL and Myers are known commodities, if anything they will decline as time goes on.

 

Hughes could very well get better, but how much of an effect will that have on our overall performance?

 

Rathbone may come in and be serviceable in a limited role, but how much will his limited role improve our overall performance? He's playing behind two guys that will take a lot of minutes on the left side.

 

Everyone else on the roster is a depth piece.

 

So even if Hughes-Schenn / OEL-Myers continues to be a solid top-4, we would still require a complete overhaul to get to where we need to go. I don't know how anyone can look at this defense and think it's anywhere close to what we saw in the Finals.

 

 

[Hairy Kneel]

On 7/12/2022 at 9:19 AM, kloubek said:

I don't know what they have planned, but I'd like to see Poolman and Myers moved to free up the right side. Then if we either keep Miller or a good defenseman not coming back, I'd like to see:

Hughes Manson/Marino
OEL Lyubushkin
Rathbone Schenn
Dermott

To me, this gives us a proper pairing for Hughes. It allows OEL to be slightly more offensive and gives us a good hitter to pair him with. Then assuming Rathbone is going to be played (which it appears, given his 1-way contract) he has size and defensive acumen as his pairing partner. No, it's still not a star-studded D, but I think it gives us a generally solid ROLE-PLAYING group.

Rathbone looked lost at times in our defensive zone last year. Hoping he gets more training in Abby before getting called up. Esp pp training. 

And Marino is too small for our make up.

 

[*Buzzsaw*]

I do not like the way the draft and free agency has worked out so far under new management.

 

Where are the D we need???

 

No effort seems to have been put in to try to move up and secure someone like Korchinski... as the Hawks did.

 

Instead we picked another potential top six forward... and this team already has a lot of top six candidates.

 

Obviously there could be a trade... not that I like the idea of trading Miller... but it looks like someone will need to go... Pearson, Garland are most likely candidates.

 

Just not seeing a real plan in place at this point... I guess we need to wait and see what happens.

 

Nikita Zadorov may be available...  think he would be a good option for the 5/6.

[EP Phone Home]

It seems imminent that a trade is what will be fixing the right side. Most likely with Pittsburgh. Marino for Garland? Or are we getting a third Petterson on our team? That would instantly make EP1 the middle child as Marcus Petterson is the older bro and EP2 is the baby of the three Peteys

[Canuckfanforlife82]

Not one question about the defense by the media to Allvin. The defense hasn’t been touched. They can’t ask him about it? Let’s outscore our problems I guess. Not a great plan.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Canuckfanforlife82

[EddieVedder]

No idea why so many ppl here have a hardon for Marino.  Its become cringe. 

The backend needs to get bigger and more physical.  Marino doesnt fit our team.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by EddieVedder

[kanucks25]

1 hour ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

Not one question about the defense by the media to Allvin. The defense hasn’t been touched. They can’t ask him about it? Let’s outscore our problems I guess. Not a great plan.

They aren't miracle workers.

 

We're low on picks and low on prospects thanks to the genius that was running this team for 7.5 years.

 

How often do quality RHD's become available? If we had some, would we want to trade them?

 

I would be shocked if our defense was "fixed" for this upcoming season. Just don't see a realistic path to that.

 

[48MPHSlapShot]

I'm shocked that nothing has been done to address the defense, yet management went and signed Mikheyev to an expensive contract. Kicking the can down the road in regards to to blueline when our best trade asset can potentially walk after this year is terrible asset management. 

[*Buzzsaw*]

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

I'm shocked that nothing has been done to address the defense, yet management went and signed Mikheyev to an expensive contract. Kicking the can down the road in regards to to blueline when our best trade asset can potentially walk after this year is terrible asset management. 

Mikheyev is a good player... but he has only one year of proven scoring, but he is being paid like he's a consistent performer.

 

I guess everyone is in love with his speed, but is speed without consistent scoring worth the money he's being paid?

 

If he was younger, you could say he is developing and last year is the start of his maturity... and consistency, but he is actually 27 years old, therefore you have to ask if we've seen his peak or close to peak performance last year.  He's gone from 3.29 mil per year with Leafs to 4.75 per year with Canucks and with that money tied up on a guaranteed 4 year contract.

 

I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised, but wonder if the money should have been saved for a D-man.

[Forsy]

Watching the cup final, it seemed to me that even the defense of the lightning and the avalanche, at times, looked exactly like the canucks in 2011 against the bruins, or the canucks being hemmed in their zone for the last few years. The same things happened to both avalanche and lightning defense for minutes and periods at a time.

I believe the biggest takeaway is that good team systems have to be in place, that defensemen have to be able to find open players to pass to and they must be able to make passing or scoring opportunity plays from the D-Zone, Neutral Zone and when on the Attack.
Soft pokes to get the puck out, random bouncing of the puck off of the boards, and passing for the sake of passing never got the two elite teams out of trouble. When the opposing team had their forecheck timed correctly and unrelenting - neither "elite d-corps" could do anything about it. What got both of these teams out of trouble was the ability to make plays that forced their opponents to defend. This required good d-men, but also good systems.

This of course, is improved with better skilled and elite d-men, but I think our lack of support systems and unwillingness to allow players to make plays are more to blame than any inherent lack of skill. Everyone would love to add a Top2/3/4 dman here, but if they miss the playoffs this year, the lack of acquiring a top dman will NOT be the reason.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Forsy

[mikeyman109]

14 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Mikheyev is a good player... but he has only one year of proven scoring, but he is being paid like he's a consistent performer.

 

I guess everyone is in love with his speed, but is speed without consistent scoring worth the money he's being paid?

 

If he was younger, you could say he is developing and last year is the start of his maturity... and consistency, but he is actually 27 years old, therefore you have to ask if we've seen his peak or close to peak performance last year.  He's gone from 3.29 mil per year with Leafs to 4.75 per year with Canucks and with that money tied up on a guaranteed 4 year contract.

 

I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised, but wonder if the money should have been saved for a D-man.

Mason Raymond speaks Russian?

[BCNate]

I think that Alvin will be pushing to move Pearson or Dickinson, using Hoglander as a sweetener to open up some cap space.  Hogs is looking like the odd man out in this forward group in my eyes.  

 

We really need to open up some space before we can address some our D issues.

[alt kilgore]

There's another shoe to drop.  Has to be. 

Miller, Garland...  I'll reserve judgment until then.  It does seem like they are doing it az backwards in a way. Adding Mikheyev, Lazar, another 6 mill against the cap for forward help. Topping up the cap that you just cleared. And waiting by the phone, tapping your fingers, for those GMs that are circling back around after they missed some deal in free agency to call.

Being an NHL GM you gotta be a good poker player, and deal with stress pretty well.  Better than me.

[RU SERIOUS]

Q:  Does anyone have any good guesses as to how they will change the look of our defense?

 

A: Two options:   OR