Changes that could improve the NHL

[IBatch]

Disclaimer - haven't done this before so if it comes up messed up - i will fix the polls!  Not great at this stuff lol.   

 

 

Hi CDC.   First off thanks to any and all participants.   IF this thread gets some noise I will add other polls later (add your own ideas!)  - meant as an open discussion too!   This is the best sport in the world and want it to stay that way.   Get that every team has its own competitive advantages as well, ours is our Swedish connections for better or for worse and well Vancouver is one great city!   A gem. 

 

That leads into my first poll item.   During the JB era something special occurred (not his doing lol!) and it's absolutely worth further exploration in the cap era.   Having watched the league absorb the WHA and expand to 21 teams ... well it was a treat to say the least.   Back then most teams made the playoffs.   Now?  Well too many clubs are missing them for 6-11 years.   In a row.  Should be 3-5! at most....no Not hard to imagine why.   32 teams.  Cap.   That stuff.   It's absurd that teams don't get a post season for that long(er!).    If one thing good happened during covid was stumbling onto the bubble.   Given how close the middle group of teams are any given year (MTL is a testament to that, as is maybe St. Louis, and i'd even debate LA - at best a mediocre regular season team ... that won a cup missed then won another cup!) ... that we forego the traditional system and make the play-ins permanent.   Either that or retraction.  

 

It's good for the league, great for the fans and great for the players.    To do this cull back to a 78-80 game regular season.   Normal during the Howe/Gretzky era.   They were onto something, and let it go.   Expansion 100% needs to stop as a minimum, teams shouldn't be winning one cup on average and one other final appearance every 32 years or so.   It's ridiculous.   I'd actually be in favour of retraction (will add that to the poll).   The 2000's were unbearable for a lot of reasons, mostly because the talent level was so thin ... at least it's catching up now.    32 teams - can't expand from there ever, even with 20 teams getting at least a play-in or first round!   I'd even be ok if the first round goes back to 5 games ...

 

CAR - a decade before a playoff again ... Buffalo what is it 11 now!   EDM a final appearance then one early McDavid chance over almost 20 years.    People complain about a 7th overall finish with post peak Sedins and a bubble over 8 years.   Well ... it could have been worse lol.    Bring in the play-ins!!   League would also make more money with the extra round, because hope will always keep butt's in seats.   Plus the play-ins basically can charge playoff rates too.   win win win for all.   Sure stats might go out the window - but just make an extra column for play-ins no biggee - exactly what the league should also be doing with goalie SO wins and OTL wins and OTL losses (put them into the tie column). 

 

Second change:

 

This something that really grates on me. Because i'm a Canadian and even though we love to hate our rivals, let's face it, i'd like to see our country do well rather then watch a team in the US skate around with the cup year after year after freaking year.   I was around 20 when MTL won in 93 and watched every single game that post season.   It was a ritualized thing at the home i was living at.   Full confession, which is ironic, i was actually rooting for LA over TO and MTL.  Because well it was Wayne Gretzky vs the world back then, and Mario had taken away some of his early days steam.   Cherry pretty much wanted to sleep with Gilmour the way he talked about him and that team lol - was stoked when Gretzky had one of his best games and put them down.     Now i'm glad Roy did what he did.    Only other goalie i've seen do what he did was Hasek and Tim Thomas.   That's it. 

 

No freaking way did i believe at all, that it would be 30ish years without seeing the cup back in Canada after the 70's and 80's.   If i did i'd have cheered every Roy save!     Get that good old Canadian boys win cups in the US - but it's not the same.    And now the cap's structure puts all but maybe the Alberta teams at a distinct disadvantage whenever an RFA comes up, or if you go to free agency as well.   Why?  Well six teams tax at 36.64...most US teams are between that and the very low 40's.   Aside from Cali and NY teams which at least are around Alberta's 47.6 ish.   On the highest end is where we sit at 53.07%....ugh Same with Ontario and Quebec.    That's a massive difference.   Every single team needs UFAs to make it work.   And trades.   COL had six drafted players ... and that included Byram and Newhook.   That's it!   Pay around 40.6%.    Imagine if we had the dough, to have an extra 10% bump in our cap!   Sure would help wouldn't it? 

 

What i'm suggesting is the league changes things to the mid line.   Penalizes the six teams with no state tax.   And rolls it back for the higher taxed teams to around 45%.   If it's going to be fair let's make it fair.    That's fair(ish).    Any player that's traded gets a bump in salary or a reduction depending on where they go.   Not terribly complicated.   Can say, i'm sure that JT Miller would be happy to sign off on that given he's lost over 800k in salary every year he's played with us.   I'm sure the NHLPA would back this idea...because it gives them cost certainty.   The costs for accountants would be trivial.   Don't even need them really - the calculators are available online to the public.   

 

What does that mean for us?   A bump of overall cap around 91 instead of 83.5 next season.  And what does that mean for TB?  Well six teams vs 26... sorry too bad.    Suck it up buttercup.   Those "league friendly deals"  will suffer some.

 

As a whole the league would be better for it,  and it gives the Canadian teams a chance actually to compete properly with the US ones.    Sad that still the majority of the NHL is made up of Canadians.  

 

Finally i'd really encourage and like to see what other fans think about this.   And more so what they have as far as ideas to improve the league.   Think outside the box.  But yes go ahead and make this fun too! 

 

 Also going to add to the poll, just for hockey historians - make any game that's decided by the shoot out or OT put next to the tie column and next to every goalie that's played with OT etc - have in brackets how many wins they actually would have without the shootout and OT.   That's a modest change that i believe needs to be added.    400 wins during the tie era is an incredible accomplishment ... like 340-360 under the current system.     

Edited July 22, 2022 by IBatch

[grumpyone]

what about a discount for home drafted players?

ie: if you draft a player only 75% of their salary apply to the cap, as long as they play for you.

- or a 'franchise' player tag... 1 player that is paid 'outside' the cap. ie: McDavid could be then paid 18 mill/yr. but this makes a franchise player almost impossible to be traded, unless they become the new team's franchise player. 

[JM_]

the league does need a tax adjusted cap management system, it really benefits the US teams by too big a margin. 

[mll]

Toronto has higher taxes than Vancouver and have no trouble bringing in players.  California is also slightly more expensive.  If taxation has to be factored it, then marketing opportunities should also. 

 

Walsh thinks the debate is mostly about being uninformed:

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by mll

[IBatch]

33 minutes ago, mll said:

Toronto has higher taxes than Vancouver and have no trouble bringing in players.  California is also slightly more expensive.  If taxation has to be factored it, then marketing opportunities should also. 

 

Walsh thinks the debate is mostly about being ill-informed:

 

 

Salary

Compare Taxes of Two Teams

Vancouver Canucks

(52.72% x $5,500,000)

$2,899,600

Toronto Maple Leafs

(52.83% x $5,500,000)

$2,905,650

Difference in Tax Paid

$6,050

 

your salary.

Enter an Annual Salary

Compare Taxes of Two Teams

Vancouver Canucks

(53.14% x $12,000,000)

$6,376,800

Toronto Maple Leafs

(53.21% x $12,000,000)

$6,385,200

Difference in Tax Paid

$8,400

 

Yes i'm sure they are really concerned about this.. 

 

Or if you'd like to see some Cali i've already mentioned them - they pay about 4.5% less tax then we do ... look it up.   And the Alberta teams pay less.  But marginally so.  

 

Enter an Annual Salary

Please enter an amount equal to or above the league minimum salary of $700,000.

Compare Taxes of Two Teams

Anaheim Ducks

(49.19% x $5,500,000)

$2,705,450

Vancouver Canucks

(52.72% x $5,500,000)

$2,899,600

Difference in Tax Paid

$194,150

 

How is CAli "marginally" more expensive?    Get this calculates the cities they play in given their divisions as well.  To me this reads "5.5" in CALo is like 5.3 in Vancouver more or less.   Yes CAli and NY teams pay similar tax rates as Alberta teams which i've mentioned already.    Within a couple points anyways.   After them there is a massive drop.   Down to 42, then down to 36.64.   You can take a horse to water ... 

Edited July 12, 2022 by IBatch

[Alflives]

13 minutes ago, mll said:

Toronto has higher taxes than Vancouver and have no trouble bringing in players.  California is also slightly more expensive.  If taxation has to be factored it, then marketing opportunities should also. 

 

Walsh thinks the debate is mostly about being uninformed:

 

 

This and the guys are pain in US dollars which has 22% more purchasing power up here.  

Guys choose US cities for climate, familiarity (they’re American) but mostly so they - and their families - can live in almost total anonymity.  

[IBatch]

19 minutes ago, mll said:

Toronto has higher taxes than Vancouver and have no trouble bringing in players.  California is also slightly more expensive.  If taxation has to be factored it, then marketing opportunities should also. 

 

Walsh thinks the debate is mostly about being ill-informed:

 

 

TO has their own competitive advantages.   We saw this with Tavares.   And we saw it with Spezza.   And Thornton.   And will maybe see this with Horvat and other homegrown ONT players.   So does MTL!   I brought this up when defending the Swedish connection we have in Vancouver.   There has always been players willing to play in TO... and MTL.   Because that's where the majority of Canadian hockey players come from.   We didn't get Sakic or Yzerman (I wasn't born far from where Yzerman was!)  and didn't even get Ferraro.    They've got a massive pool of guys who've already made their millions, just waiting to come play for them. 

 

Forever is the same about the NYR.   And that's not going to change.   Despite them also having jock tax similar to CALi.    If you don't think Vancouver doesn't have a disadvantage in this respect - i think your missing the point. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

I always thought power plays should go the full two minutes whether you score or not.

 

I feel much more strongly that you should still get your power play if you score while waiting for the penalty to be called.

 

Since you're talking about revising goalie stats, I say roll the WHA stats officially into the NHL numbers.  At least use that total as the primary stat.

 

Go back to the conference teams for the All Star game.  Probably too late to make players ever play hard again but that was the way it was when they did.

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I always thought power plays should go the full two minutes whether you score or not.

 

I feel much more strongly that you should still get your power play if you score while waiting for the penalty to be called.

 

Since you're talking about revising goalie stats, I say roll the WHA stats officially into the NHL numbers.  At least use that total as the primary stat.

 

Go back to the conference teams for the All Star game.  Probably too late to make players ever play hard again but that was the way it was when they did.

Johnny Bower gets overlooked a lot.  His age was always a mystery despite having 300AHL wins... and 300NHL ones.  WHA also a pro league - i wouldn't at all be apposed to making a column for total pro points.   Ovi ... well know it's exciting to see if he can catch Gretzky ... adding another 54 or so 17 year old WHA goals probably puts it out of reach.   Possibly Hulls and Howes pro goals as well. 

[Kevin Biestra]

20 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Johnny Bower gets overlooked a lot.  His age was always a mystery despite having 300AHL wins... and 300NHL ones.  WHA also a pro league - i wouldn't at all be apposed to making a column for total pro points.   Ovi ... well know it's exciting to see if he can catch Gretzky ... adding another 54 or so 17 year old WHA goals probably puts it out of reach.   Possibly Hulls and Howes pro goals as well. 

 

Yeah back in the days of the original six the AHL was a much different thing, not that far from par with the NHL as well.  I think Beliveau played there for a while too if I remember right.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah back in the days of the original six the AHL was a much different thing, not that far from par with the NHL as well.  I think Beliveau played there for a while too if I remember right.

Quebec Aces ... Beliveau was so cherished by the Habs that they bought the franchise just to get him onto their team.   Only Wayne Gretzky and Patrick Roy as individual players - made such an impact.     Funny thing about Roy,

Hall was the first one to do the butterfly... Gretzky merged the two leagues because the NHL couldn't fathom losing anymore talent.   NHL

lost every court case against the WHA and deserved too.   Couldn't beat them in a court mandated tourney lol.   Losing Gretzky and Ken Linesman case was the final straw the owners bucked up

and did the right thing.  

WHA was bleeding money at that point.  Gretzky really should be asking for royalties from half the league right now lol.   US expansion and the WHA merger. 

 

[rekker]

These long term contracts are crap. Should be six years max if signing with your own club. Five years max when UFA. I'd be fine with five and four as well.

Edited July 12, 2022 by rekker

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, rekker said:

These long term contracts are crap. Should be six years max if signng with your own club. Five years max when UFA. I'd be fine with five and four as well.

I do think they are at least one year off.    Edit: aside from Friedman, most of these ideas i've floated with my hockey pal ... and this is one of the subjects we've discussed as well so thanks for the addition (added it to the poll).   Know it's a business, but the bulk of the NHLPA would also benefit from

reducing length of contracts.   Most of the escrow is a result of free agents.   As an aside, it's been floated for years by THN that the best value is always the second contract.   Where things get hairy is paying 3rd contract money (which has slowly crept in the past decade or so, because of well "great value") for 2nd contracts.   I hope they can find a happy medium. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, rekker said:

These long term contracts are crap. Should be six years max if signing with your own club. Five years max when UFA. I'd be fine with five and four as well.

Imagine a world where you got that sort of certainty and that sort of pay whether your produced or you didn't.   Do think this is a major issue.  So many guys over the years have a "career year" and then slide into crappola.   There should at the very minimum, be some sort of recourse for the league to correct these deals.   Get seniority but come on.   It's not government, in the real world your produce or your out.    If your not hungry - well you lose your edge.   It's also why pre salary disclosure we got the best hockey.    Gainey and his vet pal sitting in the locker room we're willing to move mountains to keep their jobs (and said as much).    You should always reward production and penalize the other route.    The NHL product has taken a few jolts over the years.   Don't at all mind the players getting paid properly.  But sure remember the years they also took advantage of it as well, it led to the lockout.   Most fans were sympathized with the owners by then.   

Edited July 12, 2022 by IBatch

[spook007]

On 7/12/2022 at 4:06 PM, mll said:

Toronto has higher taxes than Vancouver and have no trouble bringing in players.  California is also slightly more expensive.  If taxation has to be factored it, then marketing opportunities should also. 

 

Walsh thinks the debate is mostly about being uninformed:

 

 

Still.... should be a level playing field, if you put a cap on it.

Forgive me, if I'm wrong, but part of the idea to put a cap on it, was that not to get a level playing field, and not just the richest getting an advantage?

If there's different tax, that isn't a level playing field.

[spook007]

Get rid of shootouts... or give 3 points for regulation wins... 

[UKNuck96]

For me the issue comes because of to many teams, and having a closed system (cap draft etc) which actually rewards failure. team will go boom and bust, and this is rewarded rather then looking for sustainability. If the draft was scrapped it would massively help - but its not going to happen.

 

For me there has to be a realisation that there is a single prize in the NHL and with 32 teams that its just going to be years and decades for some teams to get to the top. I think a couple of things need to happen,

 

A) grow the league and then split it into separate leagues similar to the current conferences except they don't play against each other and only in their conference. Push a bigger focus on winning the conference league as a feat unto itself and class these as championships.

 

then also have a play in style system for those just missing out - and have the team at this point play across the conference for it.

 

in round 1 proper play cross conference and mix it up.

 

b) keep things as they are but have a more things to win. Obviously the Stanley cup is the pinnacle but in European Soccer a team in England can play in the premier league, league cup, FA cup and one of Europa Conference, Europa League, Champions league (and with the European competition, can start in one and end up in another). But I think the NHL can handle having some knock out cup competitions that are done either as a single game, or a home and away leg, with each round being a completely new draw. Set time aside in the calendar for it and have it finish before trade deadline.

 

That way teams can get a good cup run, win a different trophy etc, as a team to win the stanley cup has to endure and survive attrition, a knockoup style cup any team could beat any team on the night, meaning attritional hockey isn't as relevant to winning the cup.

 

c) have the 4 divisional winners automatically get into the playoffs and give them a bye, then make the qualification spots wider, Make winning a division mean something

[IBatch]

On 7/12/2022 at 11:41 AM, Kevin Biestra said:

I always thought power plays should go the full two minutes whether you score or not.

 

I feel much more strongly that you should still get your power play if you score while waiting for the penalty to be called.

 

Since you're talking about revising goalie stats, I say roll the WHA stats officially into the NHL numbers.  At least use that total as the primary stat.

 

Go back to the conference teams for the All Star game.  Probably too late to make players ever play hard again but that was the way it was when they did.

Crazy how teams can be so good, they change the rules just to give the rest of the league a chance lol.   Richard and crew in the 50's scored too many PP goals so they changed the penalty rules to how they are today... Gretzky and co were so good 4 x 4 they got rid of the coincidental minors and let someone sub in and just played 5 x 5 .... then scoring dropped and once the Oilers were disbanded, they changed it back lol.   A lot of Oilers were pissed about this at the time and rightly so!   Imagine quite a few of them would have 20-100 more points lol, same with quite a few others that played during those years... 4 x 4 was almost an automatic goal for the Oilers back then, and sure many they even tactically took advantage of this (Tik and other "pesty" players, just to get them the chance).    To me the league shouldn't penalize good teams.   Also imagine that a lot of history would be a lot different if teams still could score like it was a Major every time ... doubt the refs would be so whistle happy. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by IBatch

[DrJockitch]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Crazy how teams can be so good, they change the rules just to give the rest of the league a chance lol.   Richard and crew in the 50's scored too many PP goals so they changed the penalty rules to how they are today... Gretzky and co were so good 4 x 4 they got rid of the coincidental minors and let someone sub in and just played 5 x 5 .... then scoring dropped and once the Oilers were disbanded, they changed it back lol.   A lot of Oilers were pissed about this at the time and rightly so!   Imagine quite a few of them would have 20-100 more points lol, same with quite a few others that played during those years... 4 x 4 was almost an automatic goal for the Oilers back then, and sure many they even tactically took advantage of this (Tik and other "pesty" players, just to get them the chance).    To me the league shouldn't penalize good teams.   Also imagine that a lot of history would be a lot different if teams still could score like it was a Major every time ... doubt the refs would be so whistle happy. 

If they had had Michael Jordan they would have found a way to screw that up. 
‘It is weird that they took away 4v4 because the Oilers were to good at it but also moved the net further away from the boards to expand Gretzky’s office. 

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, UKNuck96 said:

For me the issue comes because of to many teams, and having a closed system (cap draft etc) which actually rewards failure. team will go boom and bust, and this is rewarded rather then looking for sustainability. If the draft was scrapped it would massively help - but its not going to happen.

 

For me there has to be a realisation that there is a single prize in the NHL and with 32 teams that its just going to be years and decades for some teams to get to the top. I think a couple of things need to happen,

 

A) grow the league and then split it into separate leagues similar to the current conferences except they don't play against each other and only in their conference. Push a bigger focus on winning the conference league as a feat unto itself and class these as championships.

 

then also have a play in style system for those just missing out - and have the team at this point play across the conference for it.

 

in round 1 proper play cross conference and mix it up.

 

b) keep things as they are but have a more things to win. Obviously the Stanley cup is the pinnacle but in European Soccer a team in England can play in the premier league, league cup, FA cup and one of Europa Conference, Europa League, Champions league (and with the European competition, can start in one and end up in another). But I think the NHL can handle having some knock out cup competitions that are done either as a single game, or a home and away leg, with each round being a completely new draw. Set time aside in the calendar for it and have it finish before trade deadline.

 

That way teams can get a good cup run, win a different trophy etc, as a team to win the stanley cup has to endure and survive attrition, a knockoup style cup any team could beat any team on the night, meaning attritional hockey isn't as relevant to winning the cup.

 

c) have the 4 divisional winners automatically get into the playoffs and give them a bye, then make the qualification spots wider, Make winning a division mean something

Well said.   Believe long term, this is probably what will happen.   The league can't expand and expect interest to remain high forever without making changes.    Agree winning the conference final now, in many ways was like winning the cup pre-expansion.  I'm actually a fan of retraction.   Without the cap, the league would have been headed that way and they knew this.   Worth a year without revenue not just to fix salary disclosure - but also save 6-8 teams asses.   Wonder how many people on this site are aware of even though Hartford/CAR franchise won a cup, not too many years after attendance slid like crazy, even though they still were a good team, and once the Staal/Ward era crashed their attendance became dismal.   Florida still suffers with bad attendance lol.   ARI/CAR/FLD definitely are teams the league could have lost.    ARI still should be moved.