Is the team any closer to having an identity?

[DrJockitch]

10 hours ago, Baggins said:

Unlikely we'll get a high pick for Miller. How is it better for a rebuilding team to have "old Miller" than it is for us coming out of a rebuild? The reality is if you want good players you'll have to pay for them. As much as I like Bo, Miller is the better player. I like Boeser as well, but Miller is the better player. Trading him for prospects & picks could be a big step backwards with no step forward. Picks and prospects don't come with guarantees. If he's traded there better be a legitimate top 4 d-man in the return imo. Otherwise you're just rolling the dice.

 

I'm not opposed to trading anybody. And I do mean anybody. If there is a good return. Trading for prospects and picks is a rebuilding move. This team needs to be building. Otherwise we're just wasting years of our good players. How many more years do you think Bo wants to wait just to make the playoffs?

I think it is harder than trading for pic. They seem to want good young players more than pics. Pics are relatively easy for GMs to trade, put a face and a good young player to that pic and people like us start getting attached and doing silly things like putting them in lineups. 
Not a lot of good young players, especially right D come on the market, though we have seen a few traded in the last few days. Frustrating that we haven’t been able to get in on something like the Romanov deal but there are 31 other teams, can’t be in on everything. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by DrJockitch

[spook007]

26 minutes ago, UFCanuck said:

That was always the Sedin strategy. Take the lumps and then hurt them on the Powerplay. 

 

But the Refs put their whistles away in the finals and they didn't adjust in time.

 

I've seen angry Danny Sedin before, he should have unleashed the wrath on Mchand

Point being there were enough other players in the side, that could have creamed Marchand... 

[Goal:thecup]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Bertuzzi doing something absolutely cowardly im sure he regrets to this day.

Interesting post thank you.

I do not agree in the least with your take on Bertuzzi v Moore.

The media ran wild with their crap and many believed it.

Up until then, that was the code, and the league piled on, hitting players for saying they were going to get him, hitting Brad May for saying there was a bounty, hitting our coach for doing what every coach prior had done (telling the players to go get him), and completely disregarding that a borderline NHL player could illegally take out the arguably best player in the game with a vicious headshot, with no penalty or sfa.

I was cheering for Bert all the way.

"Get him Bert" was my main line while that POS was skating around trying to run away.

Moore picked Cooke to fight with cuz he knew Cooke wasn't a fighter (Cooke should not have dropped his gloves; it gave them an excuse to say Moore stood up for himself.

Etc.

Etc, man.

You are right, it is going to take a looooooooooo nnnnnnngggggg time for some of us to get over that trashing by the league and the media.

That team might have won it all if Nazzy wasn't assassinated.

[Bell]

9 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

Interesting post thank you.

I do not agree in the least with your take on Bertuzzi v Moore.

The media ran wild with their crap and many believed it.

Up until then, that was the code, and the league piled on, hitting players for saying they were going to get him, hitting Brad May for saying there was a bounty, hitting our coach for doing what every coach prior had done (telling the players to go get him), and completely disregarding that a borderline NHL player could illegally take out the arguably best player in the game with a vicious headshot, with no penalty or sfa.

I was cheering for Bert all the way.

"Get him Bert" was my main line while that POS was skating around trying to run away.

Moore picked Cooke to fight with cuz he knew Cooke wasn't a fighter (Cooke should not have dropped his gloves; it gave them an excuse to say Moore stood up for himself.

Etc.

Etc, man.

You are right, it is going to take a looooooooooo nnnnnnngggggg time for some of us to get over that trashing by the league and the media.

That team might have won it all if Nazzy wasn't assassinated.

The media were relentless with Bertuzzi to the point it was just ridiculous.  There was a radio show back then from 9 til midnight with a guy named Dan Russel (I think that was his name) and he would spend basically the entire show each night trashing Bertuzzi.  This character assassination would continue into the following season.  What Bertuzzi did was really bad but the way he was treated after was worse in my opinion.

[IBatch]

 

22 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

Interesting post thank you.

I do not agree in the least with your take on Bertuzzi v Moore.

The media ran wild with their crap and many believed it.

Up until then, that was the code, and the league piled on, hitting players for saying they were going to get him, hitting Brad May for saying there was a bounty, hitting our coach for doing what every coach prior had done (telling the players to go get him), and completely disregarding that a borderline NHL player could illegally take out the arguably best player in the game with a vicious headshot, with no penalty or sfa.

I was cheering for Bert all the way.

"Get him Bert" was my main line while that POS was skating around trying to run away.

Moore picked Cooke to fight with cuz he knew Cooke wasn't a fighter (Cooke should not have dropped his gloves; it gave them an excuse to say Moore stood up for himself.

Etc.

Etc, man.

You are right, it is going to take a looooooooooo nnnnnnngggggg time for some of us to get over that trashing by the league and the media.

That team might have won it all if Nazzy wasn't assassinated.

Sure that was a team you loved growing up.   Taken without emotion, Bertuzzi was a great power forward for a few years, but also like Moore rarely/ would drop his gloves, ever actually, against anyone his size, or smaller because he wasn't any good at it.    Don't agree with the piling on stuff - the person that did this was Bertuzzi.   He was no Kevin Stevens,  Tochett, Neely or Shanny, Roberts, Corson, Clarke, a long long list of guys who always answered the bell.   He also changed after it.   To me it was cowardly.   Be like a large Dad grabbing some teen from behind and sucker punching him because he beat up their son or something.   But wouldn't fight the other kids Dad if he was somewhat close to the same size = Bully.   He has ti live with it, and it for sure changed him.   Last good season.    Canucks would have had a lot of chances to get back at ' Moore .   Look what COL did with Draper getting his entire face smashed into a million bits by Claude Lemuiex.  Waited almost a year for the revenge.   It didn't have to happen the next game .... and if you believe Bertuzzi wasn't at fault for Moores life long issues - your not being realistic.   Didn't Moore fight his first shift as well?  How many times does he have to fight?  3 times?   Absolutely the Bertuzzi thing belongs on the side of the pain fan suffrage index, for me at least, 95% because i was embarrassed and ashamed with how that went down - 5% yeah! We paralyzed a fringe player.   WCE team was never going to win with Coutier in net either - worst SP all-time for any goalie, including the barn burning 70-95ish era, of any goalie to play 20 or more playoff games.   

Edited July 17, 2022 by IBatch

[Goal:thecup]

9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 

Sure that was a team you loved growing up.   Taken without emotion, Bertuzzi was a great power forward for a few years, but also like Moore rarely/ would drop his gloves, ever actually, against anyone his size, or smaller because he wasn't any good at it.    Don't agree with the piling on stuff - the person that did this was Bertuzzi.   He was no Kevin Stevens,  Tochett, Neely or Shanny, Roberts, Corson, Clarke, a long long list of guys who always answered the bell.   He also changed after it.   To me it was cowardly.   Be like a large Dad grabbing some teen from behind and sucker punching him because he beat up their son or something.   But wouldn't fight the other kids Dad if he was somewhat close to the same size = Bully.   He has ti live with it, and it for sure changed him.   Last good season.    Canucks would have had a lot of chances to get back at ' Moore .   Look what COL did with Draper getting his entire face smashed into a million bits by Claude Lemuiex.  Waited almost a year for the revenge.   It didn't have to happen the next game .... and if you believe Bertuzzi wasn't at fault for Moores life long issues - your not being realistic.   Didn't Moore fight his first shift as well?  How many times does he have to fight?  3 times?   Absolutely the Bertuzzi thing belongs on the side of the pain fan suffrage index, for me at least, 95% because i was embarrassed and ashamed with how that went down - 5% yeah! We paralyzed a fringe player.   WCE team was never going to win with Coutier in net either - worst SP all-time for any goalie, including the barn burning 70-95ish era, of any goalie to play 20 or more playoff games.   

Nope.

[IBatch]

15 minutes ago, Bell said:

The media were relentless with Bertuzzi to the point it was just ridiculous.  There was a radio show back then from 9 til midnight with a guy named Dan Russel (I think that was his name) and he would spend basically the entire show each night trashing Bertuzzi.  This character assassination would continue into the following season.  What Bertuzzi did was really bad but the way he was treated after was worse in my opinion.

Yes it was and still is a sore spot for a lot of fans - which is why i included it in the fan suffrage index.   It was the end of an era.   Bright side was the Luongo trade.   Bertuzzi was one of the funnest players to watch in his prime ...

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

Nope.

Hey don't cancel me lol.   That's ok.  The point is - that just pain sucked.  We can all agree with that.   It was not defensible though.   250lbs against a fringe guy who'd already answered the bell.   A lot of people were culpable, including both coaches.   It is what it is.   The Wattuzzi was such a fun thing back then (song)....i loved Bertuzzi but the guy was a bully.  And that part i wasn't fond of. 

 

Edit:  If i said the wrong thing about a team you loved growing up then i guess my bad.   I grew fond of the WCE team but it still had some stink  attached to it that Messier left.... Ohlund was great though ... and Jovo won me over too.   It's just a sad part of our history.    On the bright side like i said, we got one of the best goalies of that generation in Luongo from it, and it resulted in a lot of winning for us...

Edited July 17, 2022 by IBatch

[Timråfan]

2 hours ago, spook007 said:

Think you don't understand...

it was the lack of reaction from the whole team, that frustrated the fans.... Sedins are not fighting, but surely somebody else could have put Ratboy over their knee and spanked him. 
Boston got wind in their sails knowing they could beat the Canucks players without any reaction, neither from the players nor the refs... 

You are opening up a wound that likely won't ever heal entirely. 

The first bit of retaliation gave Rome a 4 game suspension... The team got butt f'd by the league...

Ok, the problem here is that posters here use that game against the Sedins in particulary.

They don’t blame AV or the league… I like to put the blame on the right subject as you probably noticed in my earlier heated discussion.

[Goal:thecup]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Hey don't cancel me lol.   That's ok.  The point is - that just pain sucked.  We can all agree with that. 

As I originally said, I liked your post.

Just not your take on Bertuzzi.

 

I really don't want to go into it anymore.

It is really trashing my morning (which was going really good because it is raining - that means I don't have to water my garden).

 

Just sitting around eating grilled ham and swiss cheeze sammies on keto bread and pretending I am losing weight.

Take care Bud.

[Attila Umbrus]

18 hours ago, Devron said:

An identity is created on the ice. I thought we had a pretty damn good team the last half of the season. We’ve improved our forward group and now we need to improve our defensive group. What’s the big deal? 

I think Petey comes back and has a monster season. Someone a few days ago posted a pic of him weight training…I had to do a double take. He has taken his fitness level to Sedin like territory. He looks damn solid! 
 

I think you’re right, the identity they created for themselves after Bruce came in is one that will continue on this season. And honestly it’s ok to not have a solid identity yet, as a team they are still growing into what they might become. The next 2 seasons will really show us what we have. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Attila Umbrus said:

I think Petey comes back and has a monster season. Someone a few days ago posted a pic of him weight training…I had to do a double take. He has taken his fitness level to Sedin like territory. He looks damn solid! 
 

I think you’re right, the identity they created for themselves after Bruce came in is one that will continue on this season. And honestly it’s ok to not have a solid identity yet, as a team they are still growing into what they might become. The next 2 seasons will really show us what we have. 

New management has said they want the young guys to take on leadership.  Maybe guys like Petey and Hughes will be able to fill leadership roles more easily if Miller (who is clearly a big presence) is gone?  Who challenges Miller when he makes a selfish play or has one of his temper blow-up?  Miller is actually holding up our young stars from putting their stamp on the club’s identity.

[Goal:thecup]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

New management has said they want the young guys to take on leadership.  Maybe guys like Petey and Hughes will be able to fill leadership roles more easily if Miller (who is clearly a big presence) is gone?  Who challenges Miller when he makes a selfish play or has one of his temper blow-up?  Miller is actually holding up our young stars from putting their stamp on the club’s identity.

Meh-maybe.. but I like your posts much more after you've had a few more scotches.

 

With or without Miller; with or without Horvat; this team will have to carve its own identity out of good performance on the ice.

(And in the alley for me; I like the additional sand papers we've acquired recently.) 

[Attila Umbrus]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

New management has said they want the young guys to take on leadership.  Maybe guys like Petey and Hughes will be able to fill leadership roles more easily if Miller (who is clearly a big presence) is gone?  Who challenges Miller when he makes a selfish play or has one of his temper blow-up?  Miller is actually holding up our young stars from putting their stamp on the club’s identity.

The only one I’ve visibly seen push back at Miller on the bench is Boeser believe it or not. Him and Boes have barked at each other quite a bit actually. 
 

I agree that Miller could block some young guys from taking the reigns leadership wise. But on the flip side not many have challenged enough to push him out of that spot. It’s a tough job to wear the A or the C on your chest. Lots of young guys aren’t ready to take that challenge on. My concern would be giving a leadership position to a young player who isn’t ready. It will just be a big ol distraction. This is where it’s great to have Miller and his veteran presence. 
 

I would love to see Miller re sign here. I think he helps create an identity that we want. Salty and tough and is never satisfied. We all want to see more grit and i’m afraid if he leaves we drop back into a more “sedin” like passive aggressive team again.

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Attila Umbrus said:

Salty and tough and is never satisfied.

I like this ^^^ 

[Baggins]

36 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

Interesting post thank you.

I do not agree in the least with your take on Bertuzzi v Moore.

The media ran wild with their crap and many believed it.

Up until then, that was the code, and the league piled on, hitting players for saying they were going to get him, hitting Brad May for saying there was a bounty, hitting our coach for doing what every coach prior had done (telling the players to go get him), and completely disregarding that a borderline NHL player could illegally take out the arguably best player in the game with a vicious headshot, with no penalty or sfa.

I was cheering for Bert all the way.

"Get him Bert" was my main line while that POS was skating around trying to run away.

Moore picked Cooke to fight with cuz he knew Cooke wasn't a fighter (Cooke should not have dropped his gloves; it gave them an excuse to say Moore stood up for himself.

Etc.

Etc, man.

You are right, it is going to take a looooooooooo nnnnnnngggggg time for some of us to get over that trashing by the league and the media.

That team might have won it all if Nazzy wasn't assassinated.

 

First, there was no head contact rule back then. So that's irrelevant. I don't even believe it would have been a suspension by todays standard of legal/illegal head contact. Part of the rule today is "did the players head or body position significantly change just prior to contact". If the answer is yes, there is no suspension. Moore and Naslund were pursuing the puck from different directions. If that race is close there will be a collision. It was close but Naslund realized he was losing the race and streched out low to reach out for the puck..That was a mistake as he put himself in an awkward position with pending contact. Moore actually did everything right. He swept the puck away and leaned towards the pending contact. Because Naslunds head and body significantly changed position just prior to contact I don't think there would even be a suspension with the rules as they stand today. That's what it really comes down to - the rules as written.

 

That said, it doesn't mean a little vigilanty justice wasn't in order. It still goes on today with clean hard hits. I agree completely that Moore dropping the gloves on Cooke didn't cut it. In that situation you don't get to pick who you fight, particularly a guy that isn't a fighter, and say "there it's over". It has never worked that way and really just angered the guys on the bench even more. That was utterly stupid of Moore.

 

What Bert did was also utterly stupid. At that point in the game, with the Avs lead, the game was over. So why give Moore a choice at that point? They were still trying to get Moore to drop the gloves to avoid the instigator penalty. Bert was face to face with Moore trying to get him to drop the gloves. He should just dropped his glove, taken the choice away, give Moore his beat down. Take your instigator and it's over honorably. Instead Bert sucker punches him. Something that was suspendable then or now. Even ignoring the result that was just utterly stupid. Why try to avoid an instigator and then do something that's suspendable instead? That's just plain stupid.

 

Btw, Bert and Naslund were my favorite players at the time along with Ohlund. Not liking the hit on Naslund, and I didn't, doesn't make it illegal. Liking Bert doesn't make doing something utterly illegal right. Would you say "he had it coming" if that was done to one of our players? I mean Cooke and Torres certainly "had it coming" numerous times. Would you have been ok with a sucker punch ending their careers while Canucks? I wouldn't because to me wrong is wrong. As much as I liked Bert I will never praise him for what he did. Because I'd be a hypocrite if I praised him for doing something I'd wholeheartedly condem an opposing player doing to one of our players.

[spook007]

1 hour ago, Timråfan said:

Ok, the problem here is that posters here use that game against the Sedins in particulary.

They don’t blame AV or the league… I like to put the blame on the right subject as you probably noticed in my earlier heated discussion.

Fair enough. 
i blame the league for moving the goal posts..

but other than that, I do blame the water carriers for not fighting the sedins fights. 
I wouldn't want EP to be injured trying to be Mike Tyson neither, but I want others to fight his fights for him. Or take it to the other teams star players instead. 

[mikeyman109]

On 7/16/2022 at 4:07 PM, Canuckster86 said:

did you think they could fix it all in half a year? 3 months till regular season games are being played...lots of time left to discuss and make moves as they see fit. Think Canuck fans need t give this new regime 2 years time, that is what President Rutherford has said it would take so lets see what happens from now until then

I didnt say they could fix it in less than a year. However they do need to move in the direction they said they wanted to get.

[Canuckfanforlife82]

1 hour ago, mikeyman109 said:

I didnt say they could fix it in less than a year. However they do need to move in the direction they said they wanted to get.

Another problem I think fans have right now is that they have heard so many times about management wanting to change things or shed salary and they never ended up happening. We have seen this story. Until it’s changed and something happens fans will always have doubt. Reality is that this is still the team Benning built. The holes haven’t been filled and the later we get into the off-season the less likely changes will be made. Anyone really think that the later we go, the more likely a deal is made or changes are made? It was a big gamble to just hold off on Miller and it could have the potential to blow up in their faces.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Canuckfanforlife82

[Fred65]

12 minutes ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

Another problem I think fans have right now is that they have heard so many times about management wanting to change things or shed salary and they never ended up happening. We have seen this story. Until it’s changed and something happens fans will always have doubt. Reality is that this is still the team Benning built. The holes haven’t been filled and the later we get into the off-season the less likely changes will be made. Anyone really think that the later we go, the more likely a deal is made or changes are made? It was a big gamble to just hold off on Miller and it could have the potential to blow up in their faces.

I for one would not mind Miller sticking around, who knows. Evey one is on the bandwagon of trading him