The Hypocrisy in the Media and the Fanbase about the New Regime

[kanucks25]

7 minutes ago, gurn said:

If you believe something- that is on you.

Assumptions are killers.

[Comeback_Kings]

1 hour ago, AV. said:

He did?

Yeah, maybe on the day of the 2014 draft when he axed Kesler and Garrison.

Other than that, every other move he made was one that you had to go through five stages of grief to rationalize.  How exciting 

I said "reckless excitement", could maybe have said "drama".  I mean every off season he was making moves as opposed to this off season where management is doing, you know, quite a bit less.  

[Baggins]

2 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

Who did Nonis draft I can't remember? Sneids I think?

Scheider, Edler, Hansen, Bourdon, Raymond, and Grabner.

[higgyfan]

Imo, Benning's only mistake that hurt the team was his impatience that led to the Az trade.  Of course,

looking at it in retrospect, it is easy to be critical; last season ended up a bigger disaster than anyone imagined.

 

The alternative would have been to let the (Beagle, Loui, Rousell) contracts run out at the end of last season. 

The team would have been pretty bad; maybe in the bottom 5.  Dare I say a Jiricek pick?

 

Imagine what could be done during this offseason with and extra $12m in cap space.

 

It's all water under the bridge now.  No point to go on and on about it.  It's what it is.

[iinatcc]

7 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Despite the long-winded criticisms about the roster being not good enough, JR has just recently said in his interview that the defense was good enough.

 

That makes perfect sense why he did nothing. I guess all along we have been sold a lie that Benning was this horribly incompetent managemenr. We are now in a much better state under JR/Allvin now, right? Much of this sentiment has been echoed or perpetuated by the media now.

 

I assume Alvin and Rutherford were trying to shape up the d-core but wasn't able to get it done sadly. But what did you really want JR to say entering the season that this "defense isn't good?" that going to kill the morale of the roster.

 

Having said that the team doesn't exactly have any assets to make a deal. Even trading Miller the deal wasn't there and it doesn't help that the team Miller was linked to the most, The Rangers, performed very well this off seasons which makes me believe that Rangers management probably don't see a need to trade for Miller anymore.

 

If there is any hypocrisy at all it's the Benning supporters here. I mean how many people here still defend Benning and blame Gillis for most of Benning's shortcomings and he had 8 years to fix it. Rutherford and Alvin only had a 2/3 of a season d now people are blaming they didn't fix most of Benning's mess.

 

Point is give it time, yes this off season was a disappointment but I think it's fair to give this management time to address the issues the team has.

 

Bad contracts, lack of assets, years of a losing culture. 

 

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, HC20.0 said:

Nope unfortunately. His buyout will still be on our books.

if he was bought out, but the buyout period has come and gone. Holtby finished the season on LTI and I don't recall any player being bought out while under that status. I think most teams prefer to just pay the money and have the LTI cap relief available than save some cash take a straight cap hit penalty for additional years. The question is do the Canucks also get LTI cap relief on their portion of Holtby's salary if that is his status for next season? 

[iinatcc]

1 hour ago, AV. said:

He did?

Yeah, maybe on the day of the 2014 draft when he axed Kesler and Garrison.

Other than that, every other move he made was one that you had to go through five stages of grief to rationalize.  How exciting 

Outside of drafting, the best move Benning made of any significance was the Miller trade and even that so far resulted in only one playoff performance with little to no playoff revenue 

 

[AV.]

4 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I assume Alvin and Rutherford were trying to shape up the d-core but wasn't able to get it done sadly. But what did you really want JR to say entering the season that this "defense isn't good?" that going to kill the morale of the roster.

 

Having said that the team doesn't exactly have any assets to make a deal. Even trading Miller the deal wasn't there and it doesn't help that the team Miller was linked to the most, The Rangers, performed very well this off seasons which makes me believe that Rangers management probably don't see a need to trade for Miller anymore.

 

If there is any hypocrisy at all it's the Benning supporters here. I mean how many people here still defend Benning and blame Gillis for most of Benning's shortcomings and he had 8 years to fix it. Rutherford and Alvin only had a 2/3 of a season d now people are blaming they didn't fix most of Benning's mess.

 

Point is give it time, yes this off season was a disappointment but I think it's fair to give this management time to address the issues the team has.

 

Bad contracts, lack of assets, years of a losing culture. 

 

Yep, the bolded in spot on.  Even though I personally think this new regime should be doing more, it's pretty funny to see that the jury is out on them after 8 months from the exact same people who gave Benning (and would have continued giving him) the better part of eight years.

[iinatcc]

10 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Imo, Benning's only mistake that hurt the team was his impatience that led to the Az trade.  Of course,

looking at it in retrospect, it is easy to be critical; last season ended up a bigger disaster than anyone imagined.

 

The alternative would have been to let the (Beagle, Loui, Rousell) contracts run out at the end of last season. 

The team would have been pretty bad; maybe in the bottom 5.  Dare I say a Jiricek pick?

 

Imagine what could be done during this offseason with and extra $12m in cap space.

 

It's all water under the bridge now.  No point to go on and on about it.  It's what it is.

The funny thing about Benning is that he's made a lot of mistakes like the rate he made mistakes were done in such a comical level as if Benning made a deal with the devil for the Bruins to win the cup at 2011 bad.

 

My favorite example is the Baertschi and 2nd round pick trade to Calgary. On paper not bad Baetrschi would have been a good or even decent player if he didn't get injured and as luck turned out he did and ruined his NHL career. Conversely you would think of Vancouver gave up a 2nd round pick isn't a big deal because the odds a player turning to a impact or significant player in the 2nd round is around 15% to 20% (from what I understand). 

 

So you are basically thinking ok even if Baertschi doesn't pan out, chances of the Flames getting a really good player in the 2nd round isn't on their favor. As it turns out the luck Vancouver and Calgary had in this deal went in completely opposite directions that made a trade that should have been, at worst, neutral (meaning neither Canucks nor Flames win) to one that Benning lost badly.

 

As I said this deal was hilarious because losing this trade wasn't even Benning's fault, heck the odds suggest that it was a good deal for Benning, and luck really changed that perspective.   

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, Master Mind said:

The new regime hasn't done enough yet, but once the final roster is in place we can have a better idea of how good/bad they are.

 

At the very least, they didn't give Mikheyev 6m aav, which is probably what Benning would have offered him

It's pretty crappy but the league is basically in spin it's wheels mode until the escrow is paid off and the cap increases. That's why I think all moves should be geared for 2 years out, hopefully gaining some assets along the way if possible.

[iinatcc]

18 minutes ago, AV. said:

Yep, the bolded in spot on.  Even though I personally think this new regime should be doing more, it's pretty funny to see that the jury is out on them after 8 months from the exact same people who gave Benning (and would have continued giving him) the better part of eight years.

The off season was disappointing but not really that unexpected IMO. Besides Miller and Horvat Canucks don't really have any others players Alvin is willing to part with that had any real value.

Which is why I often cringe when people in the GM Proposals section would put Myers or Poolman as sweeteners for a Miller trade. And it shows how people in this fanbase overvalue Canucks players to the point that is way far away from how other teams view most players for the Canucks.

 

Let's put it this way if Pearson, Myers, OEL, Dickinson, and Poolman could be traded for any assets I think management would do it in a heart beat just to free up cap space.

 

Which is why I often said that the option to tear it all down should also be considered. At this point the only tradable assets are the ones we identify as "core players" or close to it and the rest don't really provide enough support the team needs to be a good team plus take up too much capspace that had hindered resigning the young core (i.e. Hughes not being signed a longer deal as one example)

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

The fact is it seems a lot of folks can't be bothered to have a look at CapFriendly. It's not even August yet and there's 10 teams already over the cap, and 11 teams with $5 million or less in cap space right now.  That's 2/3rds of the NHL that doesn't have cap space. And only two teams Arizona and Anaheim that are under the cap floor.

Furthermore, some big names like Oettinger, Robertson, Dobson, etc still need deals.  

 

This is the craziest cap crunch (say that fast five times!) summer that I've witnessed in the entirety of the cap era. 

 

Edit: Oh yeah and this is still a Benning team, JR and Allvin haven't had time or wiggle room to put a proper stamp on it yet. Our media and fans are indeed hypocritical depending on which side of the Benning debate they stand for.  

Logic and intellectual honesty is constantly being thrown out the window. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by VancouverHabitant

[Ghostsof1915]

Well at least Anaheim is above the cap floor now. Lol.

[Baggins]

8 hours ago, Dazzle said:

We have heard many arguments that Benning sucked as a GM. Many articles have fleshed this angle out, so we don't need to drill on this before.

 

The hypocrisy comes in when you have articles like this:

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2022/03/07/canucks-backing-themselves-corners-roster-movement-fixing-one-biggest-issues-benning-era/

The Canucks are no longer backing themselves into any corners on roster movement, fixing one of the biggest issues of the Benning Era

What? This article from Mar 2022 ended up being very wrong; we would be even more cornered than we were with cap space, given the latest free agent signings. The article was partially right though. No one would know what JR/Allvin would do. I don't know if anyone expected the Canucks to do nothing in the TDL.

The truth is Allvin moved the only player worth anything (Motte) that was in position to walk away. There was no pressure at all to move any of the others as they were all under contract for next season. I said the only reason to move any of them was if the offer was just too good to refuse. I wasn't surprised at all at the deadline.

 

That said, this quote from that Canucks Army post shows just how stupid they are there:

 

"We all remember the debacles of Trade Deadlines past, with players like Dan Hamhuis not moving — and then walking as UFAs — because nobody would offer up much in return. And, really, could you blame them? If everyone, including Benning and the Canucks, knows that a certain player has to move or be lost for nothing, there’s really not much incentive to blow anyone’s socks off with an offer, is there?"

 

What it completely ignores is there's only a great or good offer for players at the deadline if there are multiple teams interested and available to trade with. Hamhuis gave only two teams he'd go to and one (Chicago) had no interest leaving only Dallas. So of course Dallas gave a low ball offer, and only after getting their primary deadline target player. In getting their primary meant no pressure to add Hamhuis and there was no competition to trade for him. That's not on Benning, that's on the situation Hamhuis gave him. There was an acceptable offer on the table from Washington and Hamhuis refused waiving to go there. How is that a GM debacle? Just as Kesler would have gotten a much better return if there was more than one team to deal with. That's on the player rather than the GM. The return on Kesler wasn'\t utterly awful, but it certainly wasn't good either. Benning wasn't perfect, but you can lay blame on him for players blocking or limiting trades with their ntc's. 

 

If there is no competition for a player, and a lack of desperate need, all you will get is a lowball offer if any offer at all. That applies to any GM. If the offer is ridiculously low, as it was for Hamhuis, I'd flip him the bird as well rather take nothing than help that GM out for bread crumbs in return.

[kanucks25]

10 minutes ago, Baggins said:

What it completely ignores is there's only a great or good offer for players at the deadline if there are multiple teams interested and available to trade with. Hamhuis gave only two teams he'd go to and one (Chicago) had no interest leaving only Dallas. So of course Dallas gave a low ball offer, and only after getting their primary deadline target player. In getting their primary meant no pressure to add Hamhuis and there was no competition to trade for him. That's not on Benning, that's on the situation Hamhuis gave him. There was an acceptable offer on the table from Washington and Hamhuis refused waiving to go there. How is that a GM debacle? Just as Kesler would have gotten a much better return if there was more than one team to deal with. That's on the player rather than the GM. The return on Kesler wasn'\t utterly awful, but it certainly wasn't good either. Benning wasn't perfect, but you can lay blame on him for players blocking or limiting trades with their ntc's. 

Chicago offered Teravainen but Benning didn't want to take on the Bickell cap dump because he needed the money to sign Loui in the off-season. So instead of Teravainen we got a carcass on skates.

 

Benning could have told Kesler that if he wants to demand a trade, he needs to expand his list. He can't have his cake and eat it too.

 

Benning was offered Theodore instead of Sbisa and chose Sbisa.

 

 

I would brand this "a comedy of errors" but Canucks fans definitely have not been laughing over the last 8 years.

[Chris12345]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

Scheider, Edler, Hansen, Bourdon, Raymond, and Grabner.

Right....but which one played goal?

[Vinny in Vancouver]

5 hours ago, Fred65 said:

Personally I believe it's almost impossible to be worse than Benning, here's a clue, no one has rushed to sign his expertise for their club, ditto Green who unfortunately has to contend with the fact that Bruce showed him up with the same roster. As to Aquaman he's just fortunate ( if thats the right term ) to have a ruthless father who put him in a position to enoy the good life.

Apparently, Travis Green was considered for the Dallas Star' coaching job: https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/former-canucks-coach-travis-green-dallas-stars

[Baggins]

33 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

Right....but which one played goal?

Just saw your comment as "who else did he draft". Didn't realize you only wanted goalies. That wouldn't be much of a list for most GM's. 

[Baggins]

42 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Chicago offered Teravainen but Benning didn't want to take on the Bickell cap dump because he needed the money to sign Loui in the off-season. So instead of Teravainen we got a carcass on skates.

 

Benning could have told Kesler that if he wants to demand a trade, he needs to expand his list. He can't have his cake and eat it too.

 

Benning was offered Theodore instead of Sbisa and chose Sbisa.

 

 

I would brand this "a comedy of errors" but Canucks fans definitely have not been laughing over the last 8 years.

So Benning knew well ahead of time a player would be available in free agency and want to sign here? That's some crystal ball. 

 

I don't blame him for taking a young D-man instead. We needed young players with some potential.

[The Lock]

Lately I'd avoided a lot of the Canucks thread because it seems like so many fans want moves to be done while clearly expecting the team to get better from these moves. This might be one of the most unrealistic off-seasons I have seen in terms of what some fans want. They ignore the cap, they ignore that we're right up against the cap, they ignore the fact that other teams need value in return, they ignore that nothing's handed to us on a silver platter.

 

And then there's the media feeding all of this, giving fans the idea that massive changes are coming. Kypreos even stated the "locker room's a country club" whatever that's even supposed to mean in the 1st place (while putting my opinion of Kypreos as being nothing more than an attention seeker). Simply put, too many people are expecting change and being handed confirmation bias by the media to the point where we have fans that might as well have more entitlement issues than even Toronto fans.

 

So seriously, simmer down. With our cap situation, it was pretty clear we'd be limited in what we can do. When you're hancuffed, you don't just magically take those handcuffs off.

Edited July 29, 2022 by The Lock