The Hypocrisy in the Media and the Fanbase about the New Regime

[grandmaster]

On 7/29/2022 at 6:24 AM, bishopshodan said:

I don't read Canucks media.

 

However. I disagree with a lot of what you have said here. I think the core is really good and is better than some think. We don't need massive changes. 

 

For example...I think JT is a guy you retain, speaking of Miller this is going to turn into another thread about him.

 

Thank you 

[grandmaster]

2 hours ago, Vinny in Vancouver said:

In the "What's your bold prediction for game 1 next season?" thread, my prediction was that JT, Brock, and Bo are all still on the team. Turns out it wasn't that bold after all. 

There has been so much desire for changes, but the reality is that JR's evaluation of some members of the team seems different from a lot of the people here:

• JT Miller - he thinks he's the best forward on the team (NOTE: even after seeing Petey's performance); his stated preference is to keep him
  • CDC: many people want him traded
• Brock - JR stated that he wanted to keep him at a fair price, and he did
  • CDC: many wanted him traded (often for what seemed like less productive players)
• Bo - JR said that Bo is the Captain of the team and wants to keep him; I personally suspect that Bo has kindly told management to try to keep JT and that's why his extension is not yet signed
  • CDC: some people think he's not worthy of being a captain
• OEL - JR liked his play
  • CDC: some want to dump his salary
• Poolman - JR said that when healthy, he's top 4
  • CDC: he's bottom 6
• Motte, Lammikko, Highmore - none of them were re-signed
  • CDC: we all loved them
• Lekkerimaki - JR and Allvin thinks they got a steal
  • CDC: some of us are in a wait-and-see mode; we think he's a good shooter but not necessarily a star
• team - JR said that barring injuries, the Canucks should be a playoff team; it sounds like he thinks the Canucks' forwards (with JT) are good enough

I wouldn't be surprised if JR and Allvin valued other players we've mentioned for trades (Garland, Hoglander, Pearson, Myers) more than what a lot of us do. If that's the case, I get it why they're waiting for the right deal.

Me personally, I'm giving them until the start of the 2023-2024 season to evaluate how they put their stamp on the team.

CDC is full of “fans” eh? A true fan loves their good players and want them to stay. Not throw them out like garbage. 

[Gurn]

10 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

CDC is full of “fans” eh? A true fan loves their good players and want them to stay. Not throw them out like garbage. 

Can you provide the quote of the person that wants good players thrown out like garbage?

I must have missed it, in all the back and forth.

 

The  interesting thing is that nobody wants to trade Miller- if he signs for $5 mill over 4 years.

Many however don't want to see any contract longer than 5 years

Others don't want to see a salary of $8 mill  or more

 

Money and term is the issue, not "throwing out players like garbage", at all. 

Also garbage gets taken to the dump, while a player trade involves assets in return.

[DrJockitch]

If he signs for less than Gaudreau I would be surprised TBH. Maybe he will get a little less term but I think AAV will be in that range. 

[grandmaster]

15 minutes ago, gurn said:

Can you provide the quote of the person that wants good players thrown out like garbage?

I must have missed it, in all the back and forth.

 

The  interesting thing is that nobody wants to trade Miller- if he signs for $5 mill over 4 years.

Many however don't want to see any contract longer than 5 years

Others don't want to see a salary of $8 mill  or more

 

Money and term is the issue, not "throwing out players like garbage", at all. 

Also garbage gets taken to the dump, while a player trade involves assets in return.

How about you just leave the numbers to the professionals and just cheer for your team instead? We have a collection of diverse and well experienced people managing this team. Leave that part to the pros and go back to being a fan.

 

A fan would not want Miller traded. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by grandmaster

[Gurn]

7 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

How about you just leave the numbers to the professionals and just cheer for your team instead? We have a collection of diverse and well experienced people managing this team. Leave that part to the pros and go back to being a fan.

 

If you choose to fan one way, doesn't mean someone else being a fan in a different manner is not a fan.

Think the young folk call it 'gatekeeping'.

Numbers are important, if they are wrong, or too long or both, the team will likely suck.

As a fan, I prefer not to watch a team that sucks.

[AV.]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

I'm talking about your words that you've presented just as much as I'm talking about the op's. It's good that you're at least indifferent and willing to give time, but your ideas on what should be expected, especially your last sentence, is rather disturbing.

 

Good management teams will TRY to find ways to get things done no matter the circumstances. Add that 1 word of try and I'll agree with you. It doesn't mean they will, but they wil try. WILL is not realily. TRY is reality because there it not always a solution that's going to necessarily "get things done". Sometimes getting things done means you've made the wrong move as well.

 

So honestly, I'm glad you're giving them a chance but your expectation of your last sentence... to put it blunt you're never going to be satisfied and I'm expecting you to be complaining in a year's time or less, and continue to do so no matter whatever management group we have, because that's the mentality you've just stated that you have. What you want will always be different from what reality brings you.

You're still assuming things.  If I'm "complaining" in the future, it's because stuff has happened (or not happened) that deserve criticism; not because I've placed unrealistic expectations on the team that haven't been met based on a "mentality".  I've been more than happy to pass on praise when it's due and even outline potential positives (if I can and am feeling up to it) with a portion of things this team does that I'm not always totally on-board with.  Problem is, it's been few and far between in the last decade, and it's straight-up anti-intellectual, IMO, to just mindlessly pom-pom wave for the sake of being positive or trying to be a "good"/loyal fan.  Maybe the homers around here can do that, but I'd much rather approach sports fandom from a lens that's as objective and critical as possible.  To each their own.

And, sure, you can appreciate effort and "trying", but only at an arm's length and not more than sports professionals necessarily need.  In sports and other results-based industries, the barometer for success comes from doing, and that barometer should be put in place sooner rather than later.  It doesn't matter how well-intentioned a management team is, or how often they say the right things - if they don't get around to achieving their goals (the ones they themselves have set out, mind you), one way or another, they're failing.  None of that is out of touch with reality or "disturbing", it's just how it is.  After all, even though there are no Stanley Cups between, let's say, Canucks teams coached by Vigneault vs Canucks teams coached by Desjardins/Green, the former Canucks teams gave the fans a lot more reason to be appreciative and happy with their version of "trying" vs the latter Canucks teams and whatever the hell they were doing. 

So, this isn't about fans being ruthless and unrealistic, but has a lot to do with the expectations set between the team and fans being met. For this reason, even though I'm currently happy to wait things out and see what transpires in a reasonable time frame, I wouldn't blame restless fans one bit if they're upset come October and the majority of the trade block crew is still here.  If the management team outlines to fans that changes need to be made (like they continually have said since they've arrived here) and then don't come back with actual changes on those fronts, why should those fans then have to turn around and re-think whether or not those expectations were too much?  Clearly, one side (the management) failed to deliver on their end, and the responsibility is on them.  Fans shouldn't have to sit there, gaslight themselves into thinking they wanted or expected too much, and then think of every plausible excuse or reason for why the management couldn't deliver.  If the state of the salary cap or trade market proves to be difficult to get things, then a management team shouldn't come out and signify their intent to make changes.  At the very least, it's their responsibility to own up to what they weren't able to accomplish.  Once more, this is the only reality worth operating in for fans, one where there's equal parts accountability and expectations.

 

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

Even then, I'd also look at the situation around the league. I tend to think it's never a bad idea to compare what our management is doing with other management at the time.

 

A good example of this would be with the LE signing. Clearly, that was a terrible signing, but if you look around the league at that time... a lot of bad signings happened that very same day: Lucic. Ladd, Okposo, etc. So yes, that was bad, but when you look at what was going on in the league, it was just a bad day for the league in general. This obviously isn't to give an excuse to Benning, but most people ignore this extra bit of context when they bring out their frustrations of the signing.

I don't mind this perspective, but surely you have to realize it's bit contradictory for you to hold this position?  If we're examining other GMs from around the league, especially those who have just come into a GM job in the last year or so (i.e Kent Hughes, Pat Verbeek, and even Mike Greir with one month of experience), they've all done more to make changes to their team than Patrik Allvin/Jim Rutherford have.  Not very genuine for you to argue that patience and time are needed from fans in this market, when other, new regimes around the league don't seem to be letting their specific constraints get in the way of their activity.

[grandmaster]

16 minutes ago, gurn said:

 

If you choose to fan one way, doesn't mean someone else being a fan in a different manner is not a fan.

Think the young folk call it 'gatekeeping'.

Numbers are important, if they are wrong, or too long or both, the team will likely suck.

As a fan, I prefer not to watch a team that sucks.

As a fan you are not privy to things like what is being truly offered in trade scenarios and what the true amounts are in bargaining a new contract/extension. This is why you have no standing to comment on these matters until after it happens. 

As a fan you have no choice but to have faith that the professionals managing this team are doing the best they can. 

 

[Gurn]

5 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

As a fan you have no choice but to have faith that the professionals managing this team are doing the best they can. 

Jim Benning was doing the best he could, it wasn't enough.

And  there you go again saying what a fan has to do, and be.

[grandmaster]

12 minutes ago, gurn said:

Jim Benning was doing the best he could, it wasn't enough.

And  there you go again saying what a fan has to do, and be.

He was one person. As I said. We have a team of diverse and very experienced leaders running the show now.

[CaptKirk888]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:09 AM, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Sedins had a little gas left in the tank.  Each Sedin was in the top ten in points that season.  When their offense dried up, the team fell off a cliff in subsequent seasons.

Daniel 9th, Hank 13th, but close enough. 2016 both Burrows and Higgins fell off a cliff. It also didn’t help that we had support players like Megna, Chaput, Vey, skille etc in the years following.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, CaptKirk888 said:

Daniel 9th, Hank 13th, but close enough. 2016 both Burrows and Higgins fell off a cliff. It also didn’t help that we had support players like Megna, Chaput, Vey, skille etc in the years following.

Had a good season from Miller & Lack was a capable backup that season as well from what I remember.

[bigbadcanucks]

5 hours ago, grandmaster said:

CDC is full of “fans” eh? A true fan loves their good players and want them to stay. Not throw them out like garbage. 

I consider myself a fan.  But I don't get emotionally attached to any player.  To me, a player can be an asset or a liability to an organization and that is based on a multi dimensional set of attributes, of which one is how the player fits within a salary cap. 

 

This is over simplifying it, but I'm a fan of team success over individual success...I could argue your point that a player who gives you stellar individual performance is good for the team's cause, but in it's totality, such a player may still need to be moved for the betterment of the team's long term fortunes.  Timing and circumstances.  Hope that doesn't make me a fake fan of the Canucks.

[Canuck You]

Media!?!...Number one bs!...

 

[RogersTowell]

20 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

If he signs for less than Gaudreau I would be surprised TBH. Maybe he will get a little less term but I think AAV will be in that range. 

Gaudreau has about 200 points more in a similar number of career games.  They are not comparables.  I doubt he'll get nearly 10 million a year.  I also think this was Gaudrea's career year and he'll be in slow decline for the first half of his contract and as almost as bad as LE in the last half.

[DrJockitch]

6 minutes ago, RogersTowell said:

Gaudreau has about 200 points more in a similar number of career games.  They are not comparables.  I doubt he'll get nearly 10 million a year.  I also think this was Gaudrea's career year and he'll be in slow decline for the first half of his contract and as almost as bad as LE in the last half.

I agree. Not advocating that. It is what he will get if has another ppg year and his agent knows that. 

[Goal:thecup]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:05 AM, King Heffy said:

Pretty easy to see Pat Quinn's influence on Burkie.  Liked him as a GM and have a ton of respect for him as a man.  Not many execs I'd rather have a beer with.

I've been close to that; 45 minutes one-on-one; once you get past the initial scalding, it was very, very good.

But Hey-Zeus, he just reamed me on my first question.

(Which, if you care, was about parking and concession revenue not being included when he was saying the team was losing money.)

Typical Burke, though, wrinkled white shirt, who knows where his tie was, light sweat in an air-conditioned room, red face, etc.

[Gurn]

7 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

I've been close to that; 45 minutes one-on-one; once you get past the initial scalding, it was very, very good.

But Hey-Zeus, he just reamed me on my first question.

(Which, if you care, was about parking and concession revenue not being included when he was saying the team was losing money.)

Typical Burke, though, wrinkled white shirt, who knows where his tie was, light sweat in an air-conditioned room, red face, etc.

Burke and his every week appearance on Dan Russell's Sports Talk show were always highly entertaining.

Brian, driving past a bar, sees a fight break out " Give me a minute Dan, got to go break up a scrap"

A bit later Russell "How'd that go?"

"Ok, just a little blood on my shirt"    like it happened to him every day.    lol

[Gurn]

side note- Dan Russel had the best sports radio show the city has ever seen- up until he got bitter about circus time, and losing out on getting the play by play gig.

[Provost]

Cherry picking at its worst.

 

JR literally just said the D needs work but they haven’t been able to do it.  He has also very recently said the roster still needs a lot of work.

 

He said the cap constraints and inability to move out money has made it difficult to make the moves or profess they wanted.

 

It is pretty obvious with seeing really solid players like Marino and Bjorkstand moving for just cap space that teams just aren’t willing to take on money.

 

It isn’t even close to hypocrisy, Benning got the benefit of the doubt from the vast bulk of the fan base through years of consistent failures.  His continued blunders and the team continuing to be skidding along the bottom of the standings were good reasons for him to eventually lose the trust of most people.

 

The new regime gets s least a couple years of mistakes grace period… that will be a lot less than Benning got since it has now been so long since the team had success.

 

JR did miss the boat on trading guys out and clearing cap space before the trade deadline.  He seems to have misjudged the market in the offseason.