Bo Horvat is the Canucks best center.

[MeanSeanBean]

2 hours ago, -DLC- said:

Hate that we feel a need to compare our players against each other.

 

No "I" in team stuff.

Comparing different things is how humans can make choices. If someone was visiting the city and asked the best place to check out for dinner, and you were like "they are all equally good we shouldn't compare restaurants against each other" that wouldn't be very helpful at all.

 

Comparing the skills sets of different types of hockey players isn't taking away from the team aspect of sports. Every team has a best player, every team has the worst player. No matter how well a constructed a team is, you still need both.

 

I assume your post is mostly in reference to Horvat vs Miller, and again this is a very important talking point. I'm 100% sure on numerous occasions our entire hockey ops has sat around a table and specifically compared the pros and cons of both players while trying to decide on how to advance the team.

[Devron]

3 hours ago, -DLC- said:

Hate that we feel a need to compare our players against each other.

 

No "I" in team stuff.

It’s ridiculous. Petey, Miller and Bo are all fabulous players. Best Center depth in the league 

[SilentSam]

16 minutes ago, Devron said:

It’s ridiculous. Petey, Miller and Bo are all fabulous players. Best Center depth in the league 

To really appreciate the depth of talent on teams in this league , and the individual players playing this game.

people need to start watching hockey games 3-5 hours earlier than they do on this Coast.

 

A full appreciation can not be assessed by just watching Highlights and Visting teams to the West .

 

 

[Devron]

21 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

To really appreciate the depth of talent on teams in this league , and the individual players playing this game.

people need to start watching hockey games 3-5 hours earlier than they do on this Coast.

 

A full appreciation can not be assessed by just watching Highlights and Visting teams to the West .

 

 

Hockeys my life. I’m a fantasy pool junkie. It’s always on TV in the winter 

[rawkdrummer]

I like Bo, give him a raise!

 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, rawkdrummer said:

I like Bo, give him a raise!

 

How big of a raise? 

[Ghostsof1915]

2 hours ago, SilentSam said:

I think this thread is actually exposing why I think Horvat is the better player to trade over Miller.

….  

too add to any of my opinions on this , I’ve realized why Horvat is not on the PK,  and Miller is.

 

Horvat is “club” footed on his side to side motion in a defensive situation..  his static to side to side is slow and easily beatable in tight.

Trips over himself.

He is a tradition forward , straight liner , who has learned to shoulder drop off he gets the outside step..    rarely see him skating backwards.

Skating was his knock when he arrived here,. He has learned to work his strengths,. But there is still this major weakness.

 

it’s like “flipping tables”,   They don’t work so well upside down .

 

@Ghostsof1915,  you guys still in Church

 

No I'm a druid.

We have a nice wickerman here if you want to join in.

[MrCanuck94]

11 hours ago, shiznak said:

Bo has a lower GA/60 and lower high danger scoring chance against/60 than Miller, while taking twice as much defensive zone faceoffs. He also led the team in minutes against elite competition, before he went down.

 

If Miller was better defensively, you would think BB/Green would put his best defensive player out there against the opposition’s best offensive players. 

Can I see the quality of competition analytics that state Bo played the most against higher quality of competition the past three years? Cause from what I've seen analytically and from watching games, it's been Pettersson and Miller taking on top 6 lines, or Motte's line.

 

10 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

bo isn't by any mean a great defensive center.. but he's been played like one majority of the time under green and boudreau.. coz simply there's no one else better.. and like i've said at 27 Miller got the opportunity to be a top line guy playing with EP and Boeser.. Horvat never gotten that opportunity really to play on the top line with the more offensively gifted player.. hypothetical if Bo spent the entire year playing with a healthy EP and boeser.. u don't think he can get maybe 5-10 more goals 10-15 more assist? between EP and boeser that's what? 30 more goals ev right there.. u don't think he would have at least assisted on 1/3-1/2 of them? and if they have a healthy EP feeding him the puck u don't think he can squeeze out 5-10 more goals vs playing with guys that doesn't really have much playmaking ability or finishing ability. 

 

based on what we have seen.. horvat definitely have the capability to score 35-40.. he hit 31 this year in 70 games.. and that's mostly playing with 0 playmakers that gets him the puck in scoring position.. whether he have the playmaking ability? i have no idea he did in jrs before drafted but he never really had the chance in the NHL with anyone capable of finishing so i've no idea..

 

again with the horvat have maxed out and peaked.. so everyone in the league usually continues to get better till 29-30.... horvat is the exception he already maxed out well before that?? and Miller is also the other exception he'll continue to get better well past 30? you guys seriously only likes to see what you want to see.. his goals total have been slowly increasing each year so i have no idea where the he have already peaked is coming from.. unless you are looking at point total only.. goals is a lot harder than assist.. only 1 guy gets credit for goals while there's 2 guy that can get credited for assist.

I'm gauging by Metrics. Bo has had similar metrics since his third season in the league, which fluctuates from the TOI increase, which would indicate that he's maxed his ceiling. He has however, improved his defensive play to be close to average, which is a huge jump from what it was. Of course I would be delighted if he took another step in his development again this year, anything to help us win a cup! 

Edited July 31, 2022 by MrCanuck94

[CanuckleHorse]

5 hours ago, EdgarM said:

I have said this in another discussion that Bo is our over paid 3rd line center. Miller is currently our #1 Center and Petey will certainly take over that role at some point. Bo is our Manny Maholtra with a little bit more offensive ability. I don't think anyone seen Manny as our #1 Center when he was here.

Bo is missing too many other attributes that many have already mentioned. He is inconsistent at times, does not play an aggressive role as a leader and lacks that #1 center offensive ability. As a shut down guy, i believe he was utilized as such mainly because there was no one on the team that could fill that role. Hank was never going to be that person and there was no one else really before Miller came along. Petey is still developing.

I really think Bo has carried on that "Country Club" mentality as well that has carried over from past leaders. 

There should be a realignment on this team where we save cap space and change the mentality of this team at the same time. 

Many seem to forget that when this team was in total disarray at the beginning of last season, Miller was the only one who was carrying this team and Bo was no where to be found. I would say that Miller has been the most consistent center on this team since he arrived , who coincidentally plays in every situation whether it be PP, PK, over time or taking a key faceoff. These are true signs of a #1 Center IMO.

Bo had Covid and when he did recover he led the charge we would have made the playoffs if he didn’t get hurt.

[shiznak]

5 hours ago, MrCanuck94 said:

Can I see the quality of competition analytics that state Bo played the most against higher quality of competition the past three years? Cause from what I've seen analytically and from watching games, it's been Pettersson and Miller taking on top 6 lines, or Motte's line.

 

I'm gauging by Metrics. Bo has had similar metrics since his third season in the league, which fluctuates from the TOI increase, which would indicate that he's maxed his ceiling. He has however, improved his defensive play to be close to average, which is a huge jump from what it was. Of course I would be delighted if he took another step in his development again this year, anything to help us win a cup! 

It’s on puckiq.com.

Edited August 1, 2022 by shiznak

[wai_lai416]

4 hours ago, MrCanuck94 said:

Can I see the quality of competition analytics that state Bo played the most against higher quality of competition the past three years? Cause from what I've seen analytically and from watching games, it's been Pettersson and Miller taking on top 6 lines, or Motte's line.

 

I'm gauging by Metrics. Bo has had similar metrics since his third season in the league, which fluctuates from the TOI increase, which would indicate that he's maxed his ceiling. He has however, improved his defensive play to be close to average, which is a huge jump from what it was. Of course I would be delighted if he took another step in his development again this year, anything to help us win a cup! 

i'm no longer subscribed so i don't have access to the QoC anymore.. and just by starring at the defensive zone starts.. it's not really hard to see Horvat will usually be up against the other teams top line.. if you have an offensive zone draw.. are you going to put your 2nd 3rd or 4th line on there if your top line is rested? obviously not.. so i dunno how you come to the conclusion EP and Miller plays against the top lines while Horvat plays against the lesser competition.. the only time Miller or EP plays against top lines is if the coach likes the particular matchup or the team changes on the fly to put their top line vs EP or Miller because they think they have the advantage. 

 

Miller also owns the worse save % when he's on the ice of any player on this team.. well there's 5 players below him.. but they combined for 23 games between them.. so they don't really count all the linemates he played with are all significantly higher

 

as for metrics.. i dunno it's really hard to just look at the metrics and say well that player must have hit his ceiling.. i mean how do you expect 1 to raise his metrics if hes constantly being put in positions that won't let him improve on the metric? i never thought of bo to be the match up guy taking most of the defensive draws when he was drafted. but he's been slowly groomed into that role because the canucks don't have a better option.

[wai_lai416]

13 minutes ago, shiznak said:

It’s on puckiq.com.

u cant seperate it by 5v5 vs powerplay so it's really not a good indication because Miller played double the penalty kill mins vs horvat. that alone with skew the chart.. mainly it's the 5v5 that's of concern unless there's a way to seperate it

[MrCanuck94]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i'm no longer subscribed so i don't have access to the QoC anymore.. and just by starring at the defensive zone starts.. it's not really hard to see Horvat will usually be up against the other teams top line.. if you have an offensive zone draw.. are you going to put your 2nd 3rd or 4th line on there if your top line is rested? obviously not.. so i dunno how you come to the conclusion EP and Miller plays against the top lines while Horvat plays against the lesser competition.. the only time Miller or EP plays against top lines is if the coach likes the particular matchup or the team changes on the fly to put their top line vs EP or Miller because they think they have the advantage. 

 

Miller also owns the worse save % when he's on the ice of any player on this team.. well there's 5 players below him.. but they combined for 23 games between them.. so they don't really count all the linemates he played with are all significantly higher

 

as for metrics.. i dunno it's really hard to just look at the metrics and say well that player must have hit his ceiling.. i mean how do you expect 1 to raise his metrics if hes constantly being put in positions that won't let him improve on the metric? i never thought of bo to be the match up guy taking most of the defensive draws when he was drafted. but he's been slowly groomed into that role because the canucks don't have a better option.

Prior to this season, EPs QOC was 95th percentile. Someone else posted Miller's and it was 83 percentile. Would have to see Bo's but EP and JM are definitely playing against high competition.

 

I wouldn't really rate defensive draws as a statistic to judge QOC since many times players who are amazing at faceoffs are out there for that reason strictly, not the matchup.

 

EP, Miller and other top players around the league produce against other top players, why is it always used as an excuse in Bo's case, along with the rotating wingers excuse? EP and Miller also have rotating wingers, but they have the ability to adapt and help raise the game of their wingers regardless of who it is with their playdriving and playmaking ability. Petey even produced as a rookie playing with Player Name and Goldobin.

[Timråfan]

1 hour ago, MrCanuck94 said:

 

EP, Miller and other top players around the league produce against other top players, why is it always used as an excuse in Bo's case, along with the rotating wingers excuse? EP and Miller also have rotating wingers, but they have the ability to adapt and help raise the game of their wingers regardless of who it is with their playdriving and playmaking ability. Petey even produced as a rookie playing with Player Name and Goldobin.

When I watched the games, par example when Horvat had Loui and Pearson as wingers posters here talked about how Horvat played against the best lines constantly.

And I believe he has continued with that. 

It almost look like revisionism on this forum. 

 

 

Maybe it was Loui that raised Horvats game and not the other way. 

 

[shiznak]

6 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

u cant seperate it by 5v5 vs powerplay so it's really not a good indication because Miller played double the penalty kill mins vs horvat. that alone with skew the chart.. mainly it's the 5v5 that's of concern unless there's a way to seperate it

I always thought puckiq only tracked down even strength minutes?

 

You can always subtract Miller’s total SH time with his time against elite competition, and that will give you a sense of how many minutes he plays against elite competition, 5v5. 

[DrJockitch]

Before we signed Lazar I would have argued he was our only centre. JT is better on wing, his defence isn’t up to the standard of the rest of his game and EP I still think is a winger but is closer to being a true centre if it wasn’t for FO struggles. 

[SilentSam]

18 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

How big of a raise? 

A cool million and a plane ticket  

[EdgarM]

16 hours ago, CanuckleHorse said:

Bo had Covid and when he did recover he led the charge we would have made the playoffs if he didn’t get hurt.

I am pretty sure Miller had covid too but he didn't use it as an excuse not to perform every night. We cannot afford to pay a center the money he is going to command because he is a "Face off" specialist. We need another Sutter/Malhotra to fit that role who is going to play on the third or fourth line.

The time of accepting our top players deficiencies should be a thing of the past IMHO. 

[CanuckleHorse]

18 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I am pretty sure Miller had covid too but he didn't use it as an excuse not to perform every night. We cannot afford to pay a center the money he is going to command because he is a "Face off" specialist. We need another Sutter/Malhotra to fit that role who is going to play on the third or fourth line.

The time of accepting our top players deficiencies should be a thing of the past IMHO. 

Covid effects people differently ask Sutter also you are saying one of the hardest working players that ever laced up for my favourite team is taking nights off 

Edited August 1, 2022 by CanuckleHorse

[Dazzle]

23 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I am pretty sure Miller had covid too but he didn't use it as an excuse not to perform every night. We cannot afford to pay a center the money he is going to command because he is a "Face off" specialist. We need another Sutter/Malhotra to fit that role who is going to play on the third or fourth line.

The time of accepting our top players deficiencies should be a thing of the past IMHO. 

What a terrible take and you should feel ashamed. "Deficiencies" are a part of everyone. Not everyone is going to be good at everything. I can see that some of your deficencies are having empathy and being reasonable.