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[Proposal] Miller to Carolina


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3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Ten Schmilly a year in Vancouver is 9 in CAR so ... well not as ridiculous ... or 8.5 in six other teams around the league. 

Actually, with our dollar at 80 cents compared to the US dollar, guy here make 20% more.  JTM has no issues with our market and the fishbowl.  Guys who run to the States are wanting to either play at home or they desire anonymity.  

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6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Actually, with our dollar at 80 cents compared to the US dollar, guy here make 20% more.  JTM has no issues with our market and the fishbowl.  Guys who run to the States are wanting to either play at home or they desire anonymity.  

Alf.   All the players get paid in US dollars and have for decades now.   And any of these guys can purchase houses wherever they want.   One thing though, which is yet another disadvantage for CAN players is, they all have to file taxes in the US if they own property.   This is a serious problem for all CAN teams.   As soon as salary disclosure boosted the players salary's... and the US dollar became the norm - two teams left.   Sure WNP came back ... how they doing anyways.   The honeymoon phase is over and i doubt they ever win a cup. 

 

Edit:  JTM says all the right things but i will believe it when i see it.   Can go play in 3/4 of his home country and make so much more money then in Vancouver.   Sure we gave him the chance to be a first line player.   Maybe that's worth him staying.  And hope it is because i love Miller.   But i'm not holding my breath either.     8.5 here is like 7.2 in a lot of US states...   And isn't that about the max we can stomach... sure is for me.   Might as well just enjoy him while he's here. 

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16 hours ago, NorthWestNuck said:

I’m not speculating what was offered. I’m just suggesting that we as fans need to temper our expectations on any return we may get in a trade, not expect to hose whoever we’re trading with and walk away with elite dman + elite prospect + 1st + 2nd etc.

Even a 1 for 1 trade would benefit us if we moved Miller (position of strength) for a RHD (position of weakness) and we’d still more then likely make the playoffs and be set for years to come.

Agreed 100%.  Especially seeing Waddell's work this post-season, if this is the team we're trading Miller for Allvin might've met his match.  After all, he stole Burns from SJ (with the Sharks retaining 34% * 3 seasons, for a minor league goalie, a 3rd and a 4th line depth C) and Pacioretty + Coghlan (young RHD) for nothing.  If it was another team I'd be considering what assets we could get; in this case, getting Coghlan (sizeable, decent RHD) + maybe Necas alone would be a good enough return considering the cap crunch affecting 1/3 of the league (1/3 have negative cap space, including us).  This summer's trades really messed up the league's valuation of trade assets and Miller will likely be valued like Huberdeau at best.  

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17 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

Agreed 100%.  Especially seeing Waddell's work this post-season, if this is the team we're trading Miller for Allvin might've met his match.  After all, he stole Burns from SJ (with the Sharks retaining 34% * 3 seasons, for a minor league goalie, a 3rd and a 4th line depth C) and Pacioretty + Coghlan (young RHD) for nothing.  If it was another team I'd be considering what assets we could get; in this case, getting Coghlan (sizeable, decent RHD) + maybe Necas alone would be a good enough return considering the cap crunch affecting 1/3 of the league (1/3 have negative cap space, including us).  This summer's trades really messed up the league's valuation of trade assets and Miller will likely be valued like Huberdeau at best.  

Coghlan is more of an offensive dman who needs + work in his own end, so I don't think he's a good fit for

our team's right side.  Necas has struggled at C and is now considered a RW in Carolina.  Our team has

an abundance at that position, so I think they pass.

 

The Hurricanes need team leadership, a play driver and a lot more offense.  They are in a nasty division

that has improved drastically.  They need Super JT!

 

If it's a one for one trade, it should be for Pesce.  Defensive RD with good size, who can play ++ minutes and

excellent PK.  I would like them to add Ponomarev as well.  Pesce + Pono for Super JT Miller.:towel:

 

There is no other trade with the Hurricane.

 

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5 hours ago, higgyfan said:

Coghlan is more of an offensive dman who needs + work in his own end, so I don't think he's a good fit for our team's right side.  Necas has struggled at C and is now considered a RW in Carolina.  Our team has an abundance at that position, so I think they pass.


The Hurricanes need team leadership, a play driver and a lot more offense.  They are in a nasty division that has improved drastically.  They need Super JT!

If it's a one for one trade, it should be for Pesce.  Defensive RD with good size, who can play ++ minutes and excellent PK.  I would like them to add Ponomarev as well.  Pesce + Pono for Super JT Miller.:towel:There is no other trade with the Hurricane.

Wow, the assets I suggested might be poor fits here as you're stating (Coghlan does have good mobility and size; sort of agreed on Necas) but asking for Pesce on the other hand leaves such a big defensive hole that they probably can't fill on their right side (unless one of their kids really steps up, none of Burns/ Bear/ Coghlan can play that mobile shutdown game that Brett can, esp. at that price).  IF (and that is a big IF) Waddell mismanages and also wants to go all-in with Miller and they trade Pesce off the way the Panthers dumped Weegar, then I would be ecstatic if we could add a legit defensive D-man to pair with Hughes.  I can't disagree more with the bold though, as recouping that much value would be highway robbery IMO.
 

 

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1 hour ago, Phil_314 said:

Wow, the assets I suggested might be poor fits here as you're stating (Coghlan does have good mobility and size; sort of agreed on Necas) but asking for Pesce on the other hand leaves such a big defensive hole that they probably can't fill on their right side (unless one of their kids really steps up, none of Burns/ Bear/ Coghlan can play that mobile shutdown game that Brett can, esp. at that price).  IF (and that is a big IF) Waddell mismanages and also wants to go all-in with Miller and they trade Pesce off the way the Panthers dumped Weegar, then I would be ecstatic if we could add a legit defensive D-man to pair with Hughes.  I can't disagree more with the bold though, as recouping that much value would be highway robbery IMO.
 

 

Pesce straight up for Miller might be a bad trade for the Hurricane, but to most other teams it would be a steal.

Carolina has to go for team need over BPA in this case.  Aho is the only FW that is over a point a game player.

This is a big problem for the Hurricane, considering the offseason their division rivals have had.  If the Canucks

sent Miller to Carolina for Necas and Coglan I would be very disappointed.

 

If Miller were offered straight up for Severson, the Devils would probably jump at it, although Canuck fans would

likely be unhappy about it.

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On 8/16/2022 at 2:20 AM, JM_ said:

how is that a win? Necas might improve, but if he doesn't we already have a lot of winger talent. He doesn't bring anything we don't already have.

 

Morrow might be good down the road, but he isn't even under contract yet. We don't know what he'll be. 

 

If that's the return for Miller I would trade Necas + Morrow + the CAR 1st round pick all to ARI for Chychrun!

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On 8/14/2022 at 11:29 PM, NorthWestNuck said:

Miller for Necas and Morrow is a win even without the picks. Trying to squeeze  every last drop out of another team is why Miller hasn’t been moved yet.

had we asked for Schneider and Chytil/Kakko without the picks, Miller would have likely been moved last trade deadline and we would be set.

Schnieder was never on the table.    We just think he was because that's who we wanted.   Lundqvist isn't even a top hundred prospect, a bad trade with their first IF he was as well, and where did Kakko come from?  Was he even part of this deal at all?     ... last year Rathbone started in the 80's and moved up to around 61... CDC isn't a reliable source. Allvin and co did the right thing.   Our team was playing too well, and the deals we thought might be there obviously were not.    Maybe Schnieder will be this year, maybe not.    And if we are tops or close to tops in our division which we will be if Bruce keeps it up with them... then Miller probably stays for our playoff run.  
 

Edit:  For those curious what Miller could get - I agree with what the experts said:  a grade A prospect (Tippet), a roster player (or retention), and picks (1st and a 3rd) ... that's what Claude Giroux got.   TO's deal for Miller by their media was Kerfoot (one year left, decent roster player to make cap work), their two best prospects (both small forwards B level projects) and their first.    That's a far cry from Kakko (recent 2nd overall! that fans on this team were willing to sell the farm for, many who thought was better then J Hughes), Schneider, and a first lol.  

 

Some folks think Miller is getting us way more then he actually will get us.   He's an awesome rental.   That's worth futures, not roster players on teams going for a cup that will keep them going for a cup for years going forward.    I wanted Byram before he came back because felt it was possible we could poach him before his stock went up (and got blasted on the CDC saying he was damaged goods and not nearly enough lol)  

 

That's a fairy tale now too.   They re-signed Manson, Byram Manson was their second paring and now will remain that way.   If expectations aren't tempered, and a Miller trade occurs, there are going to be some pretty peeved off fans on this site with the return.    The prize will be something in the Tippet range, and a late first.    Which of course, could work out great - but is the same odds as a second rounder working out most of the time.    Our amateur scouting needs to be on point.   Or a bag of pucks for Miller is what we'd actually get. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, IBatch said:

If expectations aren't tempered, and a Miller trade occurs, there are going to be some pretty peeved off fans on this site with the return.    The prize will be something in the Tippet range, and a late first.    Which of course, could work out great - but is the same odds as a second rounder working out most of the time.    Our amateur scouting needs to be on point.   Or a bag of pucks for Miller is what we'd actually get. 

and this of course does nothing for our current core. By the time his "a prospect" and picks are ready to be impactful contributors there's a good chance the core is not as it looks today, and it will be a lot older.

 

 

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2 hours ago, JM_ said:

and this of course does nothing for our current core. By the time his "a prospect" and picks are ready to be impactful contributors there's a good chance the core is not as it looks today, and it will be a lot older.

 

 

You bet.   Not that being a lot older is a bad thing because they will be all within that age ... but we have to be real about the cap.   And with this current core, the best shot we have is during Demko's and QHs contract unless management is willing to make a lot of changes.   Miller absolutely isn't enough on his own.   They'd be smarter to start with Demko and work their way back.    Even QHs.  What id do, if it was up to me, is let this season play out and possibly even add.  

 

Then next off season adjust.   And maybe that's tearing it down to the studs and rebuilding.   Maybe it's a tweak here and there.   Just got THN fantasy mag... guess who they've got as doing a big advancement?   Well it's Garland.  62 points.    The eye test doesn't disagree.   All this talk about trading Miller, yet Brock's stock is still high enough to trade.   His cap would service both Miller and Horvat.... Every cup winning teams has a solid mix of second and legacy deals on it.   For a reason.  Our window doesn't need to be in 2-4 years "because then maybe we can be a contender" ... everyone knows our D is suspect.   But did anyone else notice the forwards we brought in were to fix the PK or improve it and our defensive play?    We can't just scrub names off and insert ??  there.   It takes two to tango.    Cap being at its peak limited next off season when both Horvat and Miller are up.   Is actually a good thing for us.   And well if your not worried about Demko and QHs leaving and or their next deal... then the 2-4 years and maybe .. as in a maybe gets even more iffy. 

 

Also didn't we just add Kuzmo?  THN has him getting over 50 points ... and he's going to cost us a whopping cool million.   This forward group is as good or at least for me seems that way, as we've ever had.   I seriously am excited for next season for a reason.   And for the next 7-10 years really.   We need to chill.    The bones, and muscles and the brain are all there.   Dark horse?  It's going to change to front runner awfully quick.    Semi or Finals wouldn't surprise me.   

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

You bet.   Not that being a lot older is a bad thing because they will be all within that age ... but we have to be real about the cap.   And with this current core, the best shot we have is during Demko's and QHs contract unless management is willing to make a lot of changes.   Miller absolutely isn't enough on his own.   They'd be smarter to start with Demko and work their way back.    Even QHs.  What id do, if it was up to me, is let this season play out and possibly even add.  

 

Then next off season adjust.   And maybe that's tearing it down to the studs and rebuilding.   Maybe it's a tweak here and there.   Just got THN fantasy mag... guess who they've got as doing a big advancement?   Well it's Garland.  62 points.    The eye test doesn't disagree.   All this talk about trading Miller, yet Brock's stock is still high enough to trade.   His cap would service both Miller and Horvat.... Every cup winning teams has a solid mix of second and legacy deals on it.   For a reason.  Our window doesn't need to be in 2-4 years "because then maybe we can be a contender" ... everyone knows our D is suspect.   But did anyone else notice the forwards we brought in were to fix the PK or improve it and our defensive play?    We can't just scrub names off and insert ??  there.   It takes two to tango.    Cap being at its peak limited next off season when both Horvat and Miller are up.   Is actually a good thing for us.   And well if your not worried about Demko and QHs leaving and or their next deal... then the 2-4 years and maybe .. as in a maybe gets even more iffy. 

 

Also didn't we just add Kuzmo?  THN has him getting over 50 points ... and he's going to cost us a whopping cool million.   This forward group is as good or at least for me seems that way, as we've ever had.   I seriously am excited for next season for a reason.   And for the next 7-10 years really.   We need to chill.    The bones, and muscles and the brain are all there.   Dark horse?  It's going to change to front runner awfully quick.    Semi or Finals wouldn't surprise me.   

yep that F group is pretty exciting, particularly the depth. Miller isn't enough on his own, he's not McDavid. But even McBaby is not enough "on his own". 

 

I keep seeing posts about how "poorly constructed" we are.... and yet look at the potential in that F group. Look at Demko. 

 

Yes there's a top 4 RHD hole. Lots of ways to potentially fill that, maybe even free agency next season if we can shed one of the expendable Fs like Pearson or Dickie + a bit of cap space. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, JM_ said:

yep that F group is pretty exciting, particularly the depth. Miller isn't enough on his own, he's not McDavid. But even McBaby is not enough "on his own". 

 

I keep seeing posts about how "poorly constructed" we are.... and yet look at the potential in that F group. Look at Demko. 

 

Yes there's a top 4 RHD hole. Lots of ways to potentially fill that, maybe even free agency next season if we can shed one of the expendable Fs like Pearson or Dickie + a bit of cap space. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People should doubt Miller a little bit... but 3 years is a trend and expecting him to regress more then a PPG for the next 3 is pessimistic.    And well that's worth 8.5 the next 3 years as a UFA.   What if Seguin and Benn get again?  Or the Sedins for that matter, after a couple PPG seasons.   I'm talking cap percentage.   And it was over 10 % a player.   So here we are.   Teams about to ascend.   Totally agree we need a cheap RHD or at least a better guy then Myers at 6.    As an aside.. when EP blew up down the stretch a couple other guys did too.   Miller had one of the best 15 or so games a Canucks ever had (was it 27ish points)... and Horvat was actually the prime goal guy, scoring at a higher clip then EP was.   Both over 40 (a full season... not that i'm expecting that - but am expecting good things...) Bruce's full sample size is decent, but that push was actually some of best hockey i've ever seen this club play during the regular season.   Which says a lot.   Why not support that next year and see how it goes? 

 

There are also plenty of small trades in the top 6-9 that can jam EP, Miller and Horvat in.    By the time Miller regresses, EP likely will be dynamite.   And as far as this summers deals go - GMs know the cap is going to get a big bump in a couple years.   We need to relax.   It's a very deep team.   Next year is going to be a blast.  

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51 minutes ago, JM_ said:

yep that F group is pretty exciting, particularly the depth. Miller isn't enough on his own, he's not McDavid. But even McBaby is not enough "on his own". 

 

I keep seeing posts about how "poorly constructed" we are.... and yet look at the potential in that F group. Look at Demko. 

 

Yes there's a top 4 RHD hole. Lots of ways to potentially fill that, maybe even free agency next season if we can shed one of the expendable Fs like Pearson or Dickie + a bit of cap space. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as Dickie goes think we are stuck with him until someone bumps him.  Pearson however, lines don't lie, added something to each one he played on.    He's an easy trade, and not at all a cap dump.   And one of JBs parting gifts.   
 

Edit: Poolman.   Allvin and JR are fine with him if he plays...he's not bad either.  I'm not expecting any action for the rest of the off season. Other then Horvat being signed.   That's about it.   Courtnall was also only here for four seasons ... we don't have to lament Miller.   I'm with DLC and know that he'd already have an 8 year deal pre-cap.   Thems the breaks.   That said i'm going to enjoy him until he's no longer a Canuck, and if he's traded one of just a few former Canucks, i'm going to cheer for once the post season arrives if he's not playing us.

 

Edits: And for the record that was Jovo, Ohlund and Burrows.  That's it since the cap anyways. 

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2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

People should doubt Miller a little bit... but 3 years is a trend and expecting him to regress more then a PPG for the next 3 is pessimistic.    And well that's worth 8.5 the next 3 years as a UFA.   What if Seguin and Benn get again?  Or the Sedins for that matter, after a couple PPG seasons.   I'm talking cap percentage.   And it was over 10 % a player.   So here we are.   Teams about to ascend.   Totally agree we need a cheap RHD or at least a better guy then Myers at 6.    As an aside.. when EP blew up down the stretch a couple other guys did too.   Miller had one of the best 15 or so games a Canucks ever had (was it 27ish points)... and Horvat was actually the prime goal guy, scoring at a higher clip then EP was.   Both over 40.   Bruce's full sample size is decent, but that push was actually some of best hockey i've ever seen this club play during the regular season.   Which says a lot.   Why not support that next year and see how it goes? 

I think the argument back is even with that the team wasn't good enough to make the playoffs, which of course ignores how bad Green et al were and the 4 new F additions. 

 

Anyway we'll find out. I sure hope we don't see a Miller for futures deal but maybe thats what happens at the end of the day, but I have to think given all the changes in the Pacific this year that JR/PA can adjust their risk tolerance a bit on Miller and get an extension done.

 

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Just now, IBatch said:

As far as Dickie goes think we are stuck with him until someone bumps him.  Pearson however, lines don't lie, added something to each one he played on.    He's an easy trade, and not at all a cap dump.   And one of JBs parting gifts. 

he is a decent player, which is why I see him as the one to move, given that he's also expendable with the new winger talent. We'd have to pay to move Dickie, I'd be OK with using a 3rd to do that. 

 

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16 hours ago, higgyfan said:

Pesce straight up for Miller might be a bad trade for the Hurricane, but to most other teams it would be a steal.

Carolina has to go for team need over BPA in this case.  Aho is the only FW that is over a point a game player.

This is a big problem for the Hurricane, considering the offseason their division rivals have had.  If the Canucks

sent Miller to Carolina for Necas and Coglan I would be very disappointed.

 

If Miller were offered straight up for Severson, the Devils would probably jump at it, although Canuck fans would

likely be unhappy about it.

If Alf saw these deals he'd be all over it!   Even straight up for Coglan.   

 

I know that the group think is, or at least used to be (it's coming around finally), is that Miller is worth something massive.   We also thought that about Kesler.   What did he get us?  A fair or decent deal that was flipped a year later for Sutter.   Good grief.    That's a fair deal.   100 points.., what exactly did Hall get again?   And wasn't he a Hart winner and first overall with a better pedigree?!   

 

We are just as lucky to get a bag of pucks after the dust settles, as a Sutter or as a ?? something better.   I've been trying to explain this for awhile.   Could go either way.   So maybe 1/3 odds it's a better trade then Kesler.   Similar age and all.   

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18 minutes ago, JM_ said:

he is a decent player, which is why I see him as the one to move, given that he's also expendable with the new winger talent. We'd have to pay to move Dickie, I'd be OK with using a 3rd to do that. 

 

I think we've for to hope Dickie plays or fits like he did in Dallas more then anything.    Pearson for sure is going to create interest.  And well maybe.   This next season (and next off season as well) dumping cap goes way way up.   We've still got this one, and the one after that before we see an increase.    Tough to really pin it down.   Personally see the path to keeping Horvat and Miller via Brock.   Because we have Garland. 

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1 minute ago, IBatch said:

I think we've for to hope Dickie plays or fits like he did in Dallas more then anything.    Pearson for sure is going to create interest.  And well maybe.   This next season (and next off season as well) dumping cap goes way way up.   We've still got this one, and the one after that before we see an increase.    Tough to really pin it down.   Personally see the path to keeping Horvat and Miller via Brock.   Because we have Garland. 

if the team can even have a good showing in the 1st round, it may make someone like Brock the one to move for that needed d upgrade. 

 

So much pressure to fix it all now with one mega-deal, but patience might be the key to a more sensible move next offseason. 

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34 minutes ago, IBatch said:

If Alf saw these deals he'd be all over it!   Even straight up for Coglan.   

 

I know that the group think is, or at least used to be (it's coming around finally), is that Miller is worth something massive.   We also thought that about Kesler.   What did he get us?  A fair or decent deal that was flipped a year later for Sutter.   Good grief.    That's a fair deal.   100 points.., what exactly did Hall get again?   And wasn't he a Hart winner and first overall with a better pedigree?!   

 

We are just as lucky to get a bag of pucks after the dust settles, as a Sutter or as a ?? something better.   I've been trying to explain this for awhile.   Could go either way.   So maybe 1/3 odds it's a better trade then Kesler.   Similar age and all.   

The Kes trade was different because he wanted to leave Vancouver and only had 1 team that he could go to. 

Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

 

Hall's value has gone south for a while now.  Maybe something to do with playing on 5 different teams in 6 yrs.

 

I think JT will get a decent return when the time comes.  He's of more value than Giroux and will likely be the best

available player at TDL.  It may not be what fans were anticipating before the deadline last year, but it will return

a prospect + player and a pick that will help our team going forward.

 

An example is...  Nolan Foote +  Severson  + 2nd round pick

 

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33 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

The Kes trade was different because he wanted to leave Vancouver and only had 1 team that he could go to. 

Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

 

Hall's value has gone south for a while now.  Maybe something to do with playing on 5 different teams in 6 yrs.

 

I think JT will get a decent return when the time comes.  He's of more value than Giroux and will likely be the best

available player at TDL.  It may not be what fans were anticipating before the deadline last year, but it will return

a prospect + player and a pick that will help our team going forward.

 

An example is...  Nolan Foote +  Severson  + 2nd round pick

 

I understand all the circumstances regarding the Kesler trade, but am bringing that up because, well we also thought we'd be a boatload for him - more for Schnieder then a 9th overall as well as any sort or TO deal for Luongo.   Miller .. well he did  get us a Bonino (second line C that scored 50ish points) and a first did he.   So again we need to temper our expectations.   And as far as production goes you can't put 3 Kesler seasons together that match Miller last three PPG wise can you, and seriously compare those two teams ...wow.

 

  Even points would be tough (and Miller played during covid).   In other words your even making my point more pointed.   The entire market last year - didn't give us that. 

 

Edit: Kesler had two teams he was willing to waive too.  Both contenders.   And me know that folks thought he was a traitor, but admire that about him.  Plus also thought and maybe this will peeve some fans off. that we should have re-tooled around him and Luongo, instead and just let the Sedins walk. 

 

It's also why JB walked into a gong show.   Torts was absolutely correct - the core was stale, even if he also said the Sedins were warriors.  Burrows didn't waive.   Bieksa didn't either.   Neither did Hansen lol not until they are almost done.   Like who gives a bottom six guy a full NTC ?  MG does.  And did.    Edler didn't go.   Neither did Tanev.   Not until they got their money.    So for all those folks that are bitter about Kesler ... at least he tried ... 

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