Unpopular opinion: Don't need top 10 defense to make the playoffs

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Goal:thecup said:

I see what you are saying (and $2m AAV would be ok imo).

Personally (as you probably know by know, lol) I think Myers is good enough at 4D for this year and next.

 

Then RD3 at much lower contract that keeps the big, tough, character guy that wants to be here, here.

Not worth shaking the lineup up, imo, imo, imo (wtf w/the echo in here)?

 

I'm not opposed to it. But with guys like Gudbranson signing for $4m, do you really think Myers will sign for under $2m?

 

Good enough for what? To be a bubble playoff team? Sure, I guess... But longer range we need an upgrade/better fit, and a succession plan. Sooner the better IMO, or we're justwasting Miller's few remaining prime years too.

[204CanucksFan]

22 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Unpopular for a reason.

 

If you look at the last...I dunno, 20 stanley cup winning teams, they all had the exact same theme.

 

#1 centre/shutdown centre or total HOF stud forward.  Top flite defense that can eat minutes and score goals.

 

Hedman/Stamkos/Pointe

Crosby/Malkin/Letang

ROR/Peitrelangelo/Parayko

Ovechkin/Backstrom/Calrson

Toews/Kane/Seabrook/Keith

Bergeron/Chara/Krejci

Kopitar/Doughty/Richards

Lidstrom/Yzerman/Holmstrom

 

By and large you can go all the way back to 2000 and the predominant and prevailing rosters all...ALL had beyond star defense, forwards and or goaltending that came together at the right time.

 

Now ask yourself.  who on the Canucks is a Hedman, Pietrelangelo or Parayko.  Carlson.  Letang.  Doughty.  Chara.  Lidstrom.

 

Sorry mate, defense wins championships.

While I definitely agree that you want to have that #1, all situation, 28 min a night, 60+ point a season dman, they just don't grow on trees. I'd also argue that there is more than one way to make up for not having that by solid team play and good coaching. 

 

First of all, Quinn Hughes is a top 15 dman in the league, if not top 10, and that's a heck of a building block on the back end. Secondly, as proven a mere 5 years ago, defence by committee can get it done just as well as having that stud defender (having a hot goalie doesn't hurt either)

 

The 2017 Stanley Cup Champion Pittsburgh Penguins won after going through the entire playoffs with a defense group of Dumolin, Hainsey, Maatta, Schultz, Daley and Cole. The most used was Dumolin at 21:59 ATOI and Cole was the least at 18:50. Those 6 defenders combined for 49 points during that playoffs with Schultz leading the way with 13, Hughes had more assists than that in the Playoff Bubble. Where is the stud on that list of a recent, Championship defence group?

[Ghostsof1915]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The Vancouver Whitecaps have won more championships than the Vancouver Canucks. 

Does the USL and NASL count?

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Does the USL and NASL count?

Of course.  The NASL counts for sure.  That was a much bigger league than the MLS.  Some of the greatest players of all time played in that league.  There was major international talent on every team.  The Vancouver Whitecaps that won the championship in 1979 would have destroyed any current team in the MLS.  That 1979 championship was the biggest single sports event to happen in the city of Vancouver in its history...

 

The Vancouver Whitecaps were the city’s first professional sports team to win a major North American championship when they defeated the Tampa Bay Rowdies in the 1979 NASL Soccer Bowl. The team returned home to a parade with more than 100,000 people in attendance in downtown Vancouver.

 

Vancouver Whitecaps '79: When the city went 'crazy'

More than 100,000 fans lined city streets to welcome back the 1979 North American Soccer League champions, a spectacle that's never been equaled by the other sports teams in the city

 

Photos: Vancouver Whitecaps players ride in their victory parade after winning the 1979 Soccer Bowl. | Vancouver Sun

 

Vancouver Whitecaps '79: When the city went 'crazy' | The Province

Edited September 18, 2022 by Elias Pettersson

[thrago]

I think it's really hard to know what our Defense is really it was so poorly coached/system we used made them look bad.  Under BB it was much better, which leads me to think our defense is much better then we thought it was.  This season should tell us a lot about where it is.  Maybe our defense is closer to the middle 10 then the bottom 10.

[iceman64]

11 hours ago, aGENT said:

For about the millionth time. There's nothing wrong with Myers the player individually. Perfectly fine, 2nd pair RHD, with size and complimentary offense. But he doesn't fit the skill set this team needs given other (better and/or younger) players on the roster. He's an ill fit on this roster (even if a good player individually), and his cap is preventing from fixing our top 4. He's also not young and expiring the season after this one, something we currently have no succession plan for. He's not a part of the solution.

How many other D do we have who could actually clear the net of a big forward other than Schenn? 

 Myers fits fine and we NEED his size, or would you let Demko hang out to dry with no one to crease clear, even Demko can't stop what he can't see. 

Would you have him go the Luongo route?  Play awesome but can't save them all and run out of town because the team can't find proper sized D to clear his crease and support him? 

 Been there done that, once the puck drops in the playoffs, other teams are going to do anything to throw him off his game too, why would you throw away some  the limited pushback this team has?!

[iceman64]

11 hours ago, Muttley said:

Myers is there when it counts. Accountability is still part of the game. Don't see that changing any time soon.

 

 

Yeah well people sure forget that in a hurry... I'm not sure how something as frustrating as watching your team get stomped on is so easily forgettable. To me it was nothing short of embarrassing I.e. our swedish twin punching bags ala The Rat.. stuff like that needs to stop and should have never happened in the first place. 

 We're hardly a big tough team so we need all the help we can get, trading it away is the stupidest thing I've even heard of. 

Shoot ourselves in the foot again why don't we? How many times does that have to happen to get through to people ffs?! 

[aGENT]

39 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

How many other D do we have who could actually clear the net of a big forward other than Schenn? 

 Myers fits fine and we NEED his size, or would you let Demko hang out to dry with no one to crease clear, even Demko can't stop what he can't see. 

Would you have him go the Luongo route?  Play awesome but can't save them all and run out of town because the team can't find proper sized D to clear his crease and support him? 

 Been there done that, once the puck drops in the playoffs, other teams are going to do anything to throw him off his game too, why would you throw away some  the limited pushback this team has?!

Who said I didn't want someone who can clear a crease? Doesn't have to be Myers, who doesn't fit with our top 4, and makes $6m.

 

Myers isn't McNabb on the right either.

[Smashian Kassian]

14 hours ago, aGENT said:

For about the millionth time. There's nothing wrong with Myers the player individually. Perfectly fine, 2nd pair RHD, with size and complimentary offense. But he doesn't fit the skill set this team needs given other (better and/or younger) players on the roster. He's an ill fit on this roster (even if a good player individually), and his cap is preventing from fixing our top 4. He's also not young and expiring the season after this one, something we currently have no succession plan for. He's not a part of the solution.

 

Bingo. This is exactly right.

 

Myers would be a great luxury #4/5 if you could afford to pay him 4M. He gets by as a good T4D playing with someone like OEL, but he can't consistently carry a pair himself. 

 

Moving him this season or in the offseason - and hopefully getting some kind of value - will be a big step. He's been very serviceable for what he is, but we need that $$$ to take the next step. 

 

[wai_lai416]

5 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Bingo. This is exactly right.

 

Myers would be a great luxury #4/5 if you could afford to pay him 4M. He gets by as a good T4D playing with someone like OEL, but he can't consistently carry a pair himself. 

 

Moving him this season or in the offseason - and hopefully getting some kind of value - will be a big step. He's been very serviceable for what he is, but we need that $$$ to take the next step. 

 

What contending team have the luxury of paying a #4/5 defenseman 6mil? Probably none. Myers won’t be movable without a sweetener unless we retain 2mil on it minimum or throw draft picks.. at that point it’s not even worth trying to move.. if we retain it would cost at least 4-5 mil for a top 4 replacement and depending on the retention that would cost even more than before. 
 

yes myer is serviceable but no contending team can afford him to be a 4/5 @6mil if a team that’s desperate for rhd is trying to rid myer a rhd at 6mil.. what teams would give you value for it? For 6mil worth of cap space.. there’s a lot more options out there that’s way more value than Myers. Bottom feeding team would be asking for minimum a 1st rounder + as a starting point

[mikeyman109]

First off i dont think this D core is cup worthy but i also dont think its as bad as everyone makes it out to be.`We were in the top ten i believe in goals against at 5 on 5. Demko is still our starter and he gives us a chance with whatever D is in front of him. Hughes and OEL are good defensemen. Myers is adequate despite making too much in his contract. Schenn plays above his contract so he and Myers balance out. If Poolman can be healthy or Rathone can step in and be a player they may just have enough to get there.

 

The penalty kill  especially in the first 20 games was terrible and should be better this year with Lazar and Mikeyhev. How about starting the first 20 games over .500 Just to start.

 

The team went at a .600 pace trying to catch up last season and missed the playoffs by 6 points. Thats 3 games we needed to win that we didnt. Does anyone feel better with Spencer Martin in net over Halak? I sure do.  If they had been able to steal 3 of the games Halak crapped the bed in they would have made the playoffs.

 

How about not having a major Covid outbreak this season. Its no given but if we dont have to quarantine for two weeks once we get rolling we might have a better outcome as well.

BB has a full camp and year to get them playing the game he wants and if that starts anything near the pace they were at when he first got here we make the playoffs easily.

 

Theres a reason they play the games. Our players have to prove last season after the coaching change was not a fluke.

Edited September 19, 2022 by mikeyman109

[DrJockitch]

There are no perfect teams in salary cap. 
‘Solid if unspectacular forward depth.
 If Spencer Martin can provide solid backup goaltending all year we have elite goaltending. 

D has a potentially really good first pair in OEL-Hughes, solid third pair in Rathbone-Schenn and a whole lot of who knows for the second pairing with Myers, Poolman, Dermott. 

[HighOnHockey]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:40 PM, Warhippy said:

Unpopular for a reason.

 

If you look at the last...I dunno, 20 stanley cup winning teams, they all had the exact same theme.

 

#1 centre/shutdown centre or total HOF stud forward.  Top flite defense that can eat minutes and score goals.

 

Hedman/Stamkos/Pointe

Crosby/Malkin/Letang

ROR/Peitrelangelo/Parayko

Ovechkin/Backstrom/Calrson

Toews/Kane/Seabrook/Keith

Bergeron/Chara/Krejci

Kopitar/Doughty/Richards

Lidstrom/Yzerman/Holmstrom

 

By and large you can go all the way back to 2000 and the predominant and prevailing rosters all...ALL had beyond star defense, forwards and or goaltending that came together at the right time.

 

Now ask yourself.  who on the Canucks is a Hedman, Pietrelangelo or Parayko.  Carlson.  Letang.  Doughty.  Chara.  Lidstrom.

 

Sorry mate, defense wins championships.

Lol fine post and all but of the myriad Red Wings greats you could have chosen here - Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Shanahan, Murphy - and you go with Holmstrom...

[aGENT]

43 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

What contending team have the luxury of paying a #4/5 defenseman 6mil? Probably none. Myers won’t be movable without a sweetener unless we retain 2mil on it minimum or throw draft picks.. at that point it’s not even worth trying to move.. if we retain it would cost at least 4-5 mil for a top 4 replacement and depending on the retention that would cost even more than before. 
 

yes myer is serviceable but no contending team can afford him to be a 4/5 @6mil if a team that’s desperate for rhd is trying to rid myer a rhd at 6mil.. what teams would give you value for it? For 6mil worth of cap space.. there’s a lot more options out there that’s way more value than Myers. Bottom feeding team would be asking for minimum a 1st rounder + as a starting point

I think Myers is firmly a #4 (heck, once in a while, he even plays like a legit #2! ). And have you seen what D are making these days? Particularly RHD with SIZE, who can skate and put up complimentary offense?  That's no $4m player.

 

In think he's easily moveable to a team he'd actually fit on (particularly with only one year of term left), but we'd need to be taking at least some cap back in the current environment (a 3C? a less offensive D?). Actually CLEARING his cap would be harder though, but that's more a function of the flat cap than him.

 

6 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Bingo. This is exactly right.

 

Myers would be a great luxury #4/5 if you could afford to pay him 4M. He gets by as a good T4D playing with someone like OEL, but he can't consistently carry a pair himself. 

 

Moving him this season or in the offseason - and hopefully getting some kind of value - will be a big step. He's been very serviceable for what he is, but we need that $$$ to take the next step. 

 

 

As above, IMO he's easily a #4, and with his intangibles, isn't really overpaid (at most, $500k). If he was paired with a guy like McNabb, who would complement his size and offense with solid defensive play, they'd make a formidable 2nd pair IMO. Or even a lefty version of Tanev. But we don't have those guys, and if we did, we'd pair them with Hughes and/or OEL... As they're exactly the player types we need, INSTEAD of Myers.

 

[aGENT]

28 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

There are no perfect teams in salary cap. 
‘Solid if unspectacular forward depth.
 If Spencer Martin can provide solid backup goaltending all year we have elite goaltending. 

D has a potentially really good first pair in OEL-Hughes, solid third pair in Rathbone-Schenn and a whole lot of who knows for the second pairing with Myers, Poolman, Dermott. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting the team can/should be perfect.

 

But as you noted, our second pair is currently a mish mash of ill fitting, middling, question marks. We're not winning a cup with that.

 

Never mind the additional problem that Schenn and Myers both expire this and next season, with ZERO succession plan to replace them.

 

To get closer to "perfect" we'd likely need a McAvoy or similar. I don't think any of us are suggesting that's likely or possible. But we can certainly find some pieces that complement guys like Hughes/OEL better than what we currently have. Players like Tanev/Marino/Pesce or Manson/Mayfield/Cernak etc are a lot easier (if not easy) to find than "McAvoys" are. And while that wouldn't be "perfect", it would be a LOT better than the mish mash we have now. And maybe allow the otherwise solid team we have, to actually contend for something, before Miller starts declining.

[combover]

Unpopular opinion -just  making the playoffs is a losers goal (Jb) 

building  a cup contending  team and addressing obvious weakness should be. 
 

[DeNiro]

40 minutes ago, combover said:

Unpopular opinion -just  making the playoffs is a losers goal (Jb) 

building  a cup contending  team and addressing obvious weakness should be. 
 

You can’t build a cup contender without first making the playoffs contrary to popular belief.

[iceman64]

9 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

You can’t build a cup contender without first making the playoffs contrary to popular belief.

Well Denny, try and make them see you can't win a cup with a pussy butter soft team too, that bs is pretty popular here too.. most are too stupid to figure that out although we still have no cup doesn't seem to be proof enough for some reason.

[Smashian Kassian]

3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

What contending team have the luxury of paying a #4/5 defenseman 6mil? Probably none. Myers won’t be movable without a sweetener unless we retain 2mil on it minimum or throw draft picks.. at that point it’s not even worth trying to move.. if we retain it would cost at least 4-5 mil for a top 4 replacement and depending on the retention that would cost even more than before. 
 

yes myer is serviceable but no contending team can afford him to be a 4/5 @6mil if a team that’s desperate for rhd is trying to rid myer a rhd at 6mil.. what teams would give you value for it? For 6mil worth of cap space.. there’s a lot more options out there that’s way more value than Myers. Bottom feeding team would be asking for minimum a 1st rounder + as a starting point

 

Exactly he's inefficient. Maybe 4M & calling him a #5 is under selling him, he can be a pretty good player.

 

Probably can't move him now but with 1 year on his contract I think you could

[combover]

43 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

You can’t build a cup contender without first making the playoffs contrary to popular belief. 

making the playoffs when the team is ready to compete and built to progress and advance the following  years  is totally different. 
For example making the playoffs  was it 6 years ago and then in the bubble sure made us better didn’t it.
That so called “valuable playoff experience “ sure changed the team. 

just because you fluke or squeak in to the playoffs contrary of some belief doesn't mean your building a cup contender. 
 

Playoff experience has no value if the team can’t build on it the following years. 
Proof is basically this team history. 
 

45 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Well Denny, try and make them see you can't win a cup with a pussy butter soft team too, that bs is pretty popular here too.. most are too stupid to figure that out although we still have no cup doesn't seem to be proof enough for some reason.

I’m not a fan of  the cup cake mini me build that was assembled.

Bieska called us fun to play against because no team in the league fears being hit by any player on our team.

the forecheck (if you can call it that) was guys like highmore bouncing off and falling down lololololol 

really like what the 4th line is looking like this season. 

 Id like to see a D not named schenn that consistently plays with size and hard physical game and can and will actually clear the crease and protect the goalie.
 

Really Why wouldn’t other team run demko or try to hurt EP boeser , uh oh look out here come garland to stand up for them