eeeeergh Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: In Winnipeg he proved he could he had the 3rd most minutes on the team and was fine and that was in the playoffs as well. Was among the absolute worst in the league in the following categories while in Winnipeg (note - its ALL related to his inability to adequately cover for Morrissey. A few good playoff games cant cover for this season long abysmal performance) - Expected goals % - High Danger chances % - Corsi for % Idk how this is even a debate given that this was his stat card from his time in Winnipeg when he was supposedly "good" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Just now, eeeeergh said: Was among the absolute worst in the league in the following categories while in Winnipeg (note - its ALL related to his inability to adequately cover for Morrissey. A few good playoff games cant cover for this season long abysmal performance) - Expected goals % - High Danger chances % - Corsi for % Idk how this is even a debate given that this was his stat card from his time in Winnipeg when he was supposedly "good" Because analytics are only a fraction of evaluation. Even teams that rely on analytics acknowledge this. Either way the hate Poolman gets here is beyond ridiculous, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maginator Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Let's face it. Poolman was a terrible signing. I'm beginning to accept it. He'll be bought out next summer. Still hope he proves me wrong. Way rather have Burroughs in the lineup though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Just now, canuck73_3 said: Because analytics are only a fraction of evaluation. Even teams that rely on analytics acknowledge this. Either way the hate Poolman gets here is beyond ridiculous, period. Okay we agree to disagree on this topic, no point arguing it further. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Maginator said: Let's face it. Poolman was a terrible signing. I'm beginning to accept it. He'll be bought out next summer. Still hope he proves me wrong. Way rather have Burroughs in the lineup though. Me too. Good news is his contract is great for a buyout, if done after this year. Only a 500k cap hit for the following 2 years, then 1m for 2 years after that (cap going to fly up which will help) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 minute ago, eeeeergh said: Okay we agree to disagree on this topic, no point arguing it further. Sorry but analytics on there own is a waste of time wadr. There is far more to on ice play than analytics. If it wasn’t true we would no longer employ pro scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Just now, canuck73_3 said: Sorry but analytics on there own is a waste of time wadr. There is far more to on ice play than analytics. If it wasn’t true we would no longer employ pro scouts. Alright i guess we are still arguing it lol. Obviously numbers have to be put in proper context. For example, if your only two defenseman were Hughes and Rathbone, both would have horrendous defensive numbers. On the other hand, you put Hughes beside Tanev, both will have pretty nice defensive numbers. Silly to group all of it together as "analytics". Not all stats are made equal. Some can be explained away by context (like above). HOWEVER - some paint a very accurate picture of whats going on. For example- high danger scoring chances %. Explains the number of high danger scoring chances poolman was on the ice for, vs how many against. If this number is BAD, then it means one of two things: - either morrissey was not doing his job GENERATING high danger chances for (possible, but not all that likely given that he was on a nearly 0.5 ppg pace, so he appears to have been holding up his end of the bargain) OR poolman was not doing his job PREVENTING high danger chances against. So there's your context, and btw this is exactly what's happened when hes on the ice in vancouver. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RakuRaku Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 13 minutes ago, Maginator said: Let's face it. Poolman was a terrible signing. I'm beginning to accept it. He'll be bought out next summer. Still hope he proves me wrong. Way rather have Burroughs in the lineup though. JB only saw ONE decent season and couldn't contain his excitement at signing him a a.great bargain deal, just like how he felt with Pearson!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Just now, RakuRaku said: JB only saw ONE decent season and couldn't contain his excitement at signing him a a.great bargain deal, just like how he felt with Pearson!! JB went and saw a few decent GAMES and jumped at that. Overall season in Winnipeg wasnt good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 minute ago, eeeeergh said: Alright i guess we are still arguing it lol. Obviously numbers have to be put in proper context. For example, if your only two defenseman were Hughes and Rathbone, both would have horrendous defensive numbers. On the other hand, you put Hughes beside Tanev, both will have pretty nice defensive numbers. Silly to group all of it together as "analytics". Not all stats are made equal. Some can be explained away by context (like above). HOWEVER - some paint a very accurate picture of whats going on. For example- high danger scoring chances %. Explains the number of high danger scoring chances poolman was on the ice for, vs how many against. If this number is BAD, then it means one of two things: - either morrissey was not doing his job GENERATING high danger chances for (possible, but not all that likely given that he was on a nearly 0.5 ppg pace, so he appears to have been holding up his end of the bargain) OR poolman was not doing his job PREVENTING high danger chances against. So there's your context, and btw this is exactly what's happened when hes on the ice in vancouver. The point I’m making is using JUST analytics and not studying the game film as well is as useful as judgingbthe effectiveness of a Darren McCarty or Kris Draper using only shooting percentage and points. You’re looking at a fraction of the picture and not the whole picture. If you can write off Poolman entirely by isolated analytics, why pay pro scouts? That is the only flaw the analytic only crowd seems to ignore. And again he’s paid and used as a bottom pair dman unless injuries arise. Not worth the crying about him ad nauseam here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RakuRaku Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: Sorry but analytics on there own is a waste of time wadr. There is far more to on ice play than analytics. If it wasn’t true we would no longer employ pro scouts. But tell me this though... The guy got hands of stone, can't make outlet passes out of his own zone, not a great skater, rarely lays a big bit... So.. Wtf is his real value on this team when Schenn outplays him every night??? And let's be fsjeu, we can't expect too much more out of Schenn as a 6/7th D-man!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 35 minutes ago, eeeeergh said: Idk even if we call him a "defensive defenseman" vs a "shutdown defenseman" the point is still the same - hes supposed to be able to help offset the defensive limitations of an offensive minded partner, but numbers + eye test proved he cant do that. He IS good at one thing - penalty killing + shot blocking + clearing pucks. So that's good. But as for being Hughes' partner.. we already know how that's going to go based on what he did in his audition with Hughes last year + how he still couldn't carry Morrissey. If he wasnt such an offensive black hole some of that might even be forgiveable. My picture of a shut down dman is a behemoth crease clearing mofo. 6 3" - 6 5". Defensive dman is more of a Del Zotto, strong on the puck, steady type. Imo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, RakuRaku said: JB only saw ONE decent season and couldn't contain his excitement at signing him a a.great bargain deal, just like how he felt with Pearson!! Pearson is arguably our most underrated under appreciated forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Just now, canuck73_3 said: The point I’m making is using JUST analytics and not studying the game film as well is as useful as judgingbthe effectiveness of a Darren McCarty or Kris Draper using only shooting percentage and points. You’re looking at a fraction of the picture and not the whole picture. If you can write off Poolman entirely by isolated analytics, why pay pro scouts? That is the only flaw the analytic only crowd seems to ignore. And again he’s paid and used as a bottom pair dman unless injuries arise. Not worth the crying about him ad nauseam here. The thing is I'm not. I and PLENTY of other people watched him play and have issues with him using the eye test. The thing is, you and me arguing about eye test gets us nowhere. You see good plays, I see bad. The difference is - he's statistically horrible both defensively and offensively, and I can prove that across both places he's played. I said this already. My problem is not with the money (though he is 1m overpaid for sure), its that he doesn't do what we need him to do, whether he plays on the bottom pair or higher up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 minute ago, RakuRaku said: But tell me this though... The guy got hands of stone, can't make outlet passes out of his own zone, not a great skater, rarely lays a big bit... So.. Wtf is his real value on this team when Schenn outplays him every night??? And let's be fsjeu, we can't expect too much more out of Schenn as a 6/7th D-man!! He’s a bottom pair dman at not an offensive one at that, his outlet passes aren’t that bad either. Again mountain meet mole hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said: My picture of a shut down dman is a behemoth crease clearing mofo. 6 3" - 6 5". Defensive dman is more of a Del Zotto, strong on the puck, steady type. Imo Fair point. Still dont think Poolman is any good as a defensive defenseman, outside of on the PK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, eeeeergh said: Fair point. Still dont think Poolman is any good as a defensive defenseman, outside of on the PK. Yeah he was on PK1 with Wpg so he's okay on there. It's his health and headaches and possible covid problems that might get him on ir again that I'm watching for. But a Dermott a Burroughs a Keeper might do something to get in there. Coach B will find someone to placehold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, eeeeergh said: Fair point. Still dont think Poolman is any good as a defensive defenseman, outside of on the PK. Poolman’s strength is his skating. You saw it last game where he negated a breakaway due to his skating. I hope he can settle his play/be a difference maker in the D zone because as of right now, Im liking what Burroughs brings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris12345 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 29 minutes ago, Maginator said: Let's face it. Poolman was a terrible signing. I'm beginning to accept it. He'll be bought out next summer. Still hope he proves me wrong. Way rather have Burroughs in the lineup though. Beginning? You are late to the party! The right side SUCKS. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Angry Goose said: Poolman’s strength is his skating. You saw it last game where he negated a breakaway due to his skating. I hope he can settle his play/be a difference maker in the D zone because as of right now, Im liking what Burroughs brings. Would be nice, but how many times have we also seen his partner being forced to deal with a 2 on 1 because Poolman thinks he's ed jovanovski and makes a terribly timed pinch. Poolman is a good skater, no disputing that, but often he has to use it to somewhat bail himself out. Dermott is about as good a skater, with better defensive IQ and not a trainwreck offensively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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