We need to start drafting and developing D prospects to address our defense

[Sylas]

Imagine being allowed to draft twice in the first two rounds, year after year, so many possibilities. 

[grandmaster]

I think we have to draft the best person available regardless of position. The only exception would be a drafted player that is just marginally rated lower.

 

What happened with OJ being picked over the highly touted Tkachuk should never have happened.
 

It still makes me angry.

 

[iceman64]

Well I for one are certainly glad we didn't trade JT just to get a better pick out of the draft that was pretty weak to begin with. That would have been a huge mistake! 

 Saying our drafting since Gillis was garbage is a huge mistake too, Petey stepped right in to the NHL, no ahl development needed, Hughes same, among others but until a few years ago our roster sucked as bad as the farm because simply we had so many previous locked in players it took years to get them all off and not to mention Luongo re-cap that costed us 3.3 every year in cap which would have helped but that ship sailed and there's no one left of that broken team 2012, we have a decent roster and now we don't have to sell the farm at all now and we can keep ALL of our picks FOR ONCE!!! People don't seem to see how bad it really was after we lost 2012.. 

What a shi_ show.. well that's done  finally.. we're ok, really we are. 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by iceman64

[iceman64]

13 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

I think we have to draft the best person available regardless of position. The only exception would be a drafted player that is just marginally rated lower.

 

What happened with OJ being picked over the highly touted Tkachuk should never have happened.
 

It still makes me angry.

 

Well if OJ didn't have the only injury that affects your latteral movement then we'd be fine but he's not the kid who tore up the OHL, I'd rather just pick for position unless someone else is willing to take it off your hands later for a D in our case...

[grandmaster]

9 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Well if OJ didn't have the only injury that affects your latteral movement then we'd be fine but he's not the kid who tore up the OHL, I'd rather just pick for position unless someone else is willing to take it off your hands later for a D in our case...

My point is every “expert” ranked Tkachuk as a way more talented player than OJ. The gap wasn’t even close. People literally  gasped when we selected the wrong guy. 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

As it stands, with our current prospect pool and D core, D could very well still be an issue for us in five years. You don't lose by drafting quality D or center's, they will always be valuable. High end D are harder to acquire than high end forwards imo. 

 

Because I'm procrastinating on an assignment mostly, and because I've been banging this drum since at least leading up to the trade deadline. 

 

Would be nice, hopefully we hold on to our picks. 

seems like thats the idea, at least for now. 

[iceman64]

18 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

My point is every “expert” ranked Tkachuk as a way more talented player than OJ. The gap wasn’t even close. People literally  gasped when we selected the wrong guy. 

Well we needed D as we do now... But we were further behind by miles then, and it hurt, whenever Tanev and Edler went down as they did often that cost us so many games simply because there was no farm at all, let alone a quality Dman to step in and at least move everyone up a notch so that was a huge problem that we HAD to address and OJ seemed like the right guy, wicked wrist shot, good vision and looked to be a cpl of well coached years away from top 4 D where everyone had him, EVERYONE, even the online hacks.. all said top 4 D quality and we needed that a lot more.

I get your point but at the time we all thought he would turn into that no matter where he landed. Well proves one injury can screw everything and same with Rous, before his injury, he was awesome! 

We're cursed I swear... Anyway it's all over now so finally we get to keep and develop our own guys for a change. I'm still shocked that would happen here. I thought I was doomed to watch the same ole sell the farm crap forever... 

[Chris12345]

29 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

My point is every “expert” ranked Tkachuk as a way more talented player than OJ. The gap wasn’t even close. People literally  gasped when we selected the wrong guy. 

Yea OJ was terrible.

Draft and trade or trade down.

 

There are gems in the 2nd and third round too the Canucks seem to miss on.

[Coconuts]

4 hours ago, tas said:

and ideally you have a good mix positionally in the pool, but that doesn't trump taking the best player. you don't pass on someone you think has more upside for the sake of hypothetical positional need. 

Sure, talent wins out. I'm not advocating for only drafting D but I am arguing there should be more of an emphasis on drafting our own D. I like the idea of being willing to draft D with 1st and 2nd round picks. I'd like us to draft more D as a whole. As for forwards, most centers can play wing but not every wing can play center. I'd be fine with prioritizing D, centers, and goalies over wingers. But if a wing is clearly far and away the best BPA according to most of your scouts? Yeah, have to look at that. 

 

BPA is also subjective and every team has different lists. Hell, every scout has different lists. But say you've got a handful of prospects you've got in roughly the same range at x pick? Yeah, I'm not opposed to position being the deciding factor. 

 

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

Unfortunately, with the "win now" Miller signing, I fear it's already too late. Short of stumbling on a mid round McAvoy/K'andre Miller/Chabot type that can actually contribute at a high level in a year or two... we're likely stuck in that cycle of giving up futures for guys other teams wisely drafted. With Miller likely declining before any "wait and see" type D are actually ready. And of course, we'd have to actually draft one of those guys in the mid first to actually get one...

 

Maybe we'll luck out with trading for a guy like Hague or similar that a team can't afford to qualify or find an undrafted college/Euro "Tanev". The gargantuan management staff has to payoff eventually, right?

 

 

I wasn't on board with it, I still think we're a ways off from contention. If we spin our wheels and move out picks and prospects to try and rush "contention" I just don't see it ending with a cup. It baffles me when folks go on and on about a cup as if you just jump right into contender territory after the last ten years we've had. What's more than likely is we're a middle of the pack team vying for a wildcard or a third divisional spot imo. Which is fine but it's not territory that'd have me wanting to push chips in either. 

 

If they can make the playoffs that in itself is a step forward, but they need to it once and then show they can do it consistently before I give "contending" any thought. I don't buy the just get in and anything can happen bit, I just don't. You don't get very many Montreal style runs, usually the teams that go deep are the the teams closer to the top of the league for at least a few years. Most teams gotta do their time taking 1st and 2nd round exits before they even get to a conference final, let alone a cup final. Going deep is not easy. We've seen it in recent years with Tampa, Colorado, St. Louis, and Washington. You could even throw Pittsburgh in there, they were always in the mix after their 08-09 cup win before getting to the top of the mountain again. Cup champions don't usually come out of nowhere. 

 

I still think building around the guys who are currently our younger core guys in Pettersson, Hughes, and Podz is the way to go. I'm skeptical as to whether guys like Miller, Boeser, and Horvat will be around and making meaningful impacts once the aforementioned players are our savvy vets. Obviously you work with what you've got, but I'm not sold on this current prime aged/vet grouping as some folks seem to be. Things will play out as they will and we'll see, but my skepticism contributes to my looking more towards the next group. I expect this entire team will largely have turned over by the time we get to 26-27 and I wouldn't be surprised to see a Miller buyout or trade before his deal expires.

 

3 hours ago, Sylas said:

Imagine being allowed to draft twice in the first two rounds, year after year, so many possibilities. 

Right? Here's hoping. 

 

2 hours ago, grandmaster said:

I think we have to draft the best person available regardless of position. The only exception would be a drafted player that is just marginally rated lower.

 

What happened with OJ being picked over the highly touted Tkachuk should never have happened.
 

It still makes me angry.

 

Not interested in rehashing Juolevi/Tkachuk. 

 

But if there's a clear cut BPA? Yeah, I get that. 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Coconuts

[tas]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Sure, talent wins out. I'm not advocating for only drafting D but I am arguing there should be more of an emphasis on drafting our own D. I like the idea of being willing to draft D with 1st and 2nd round picks. I'd like us to draft more D as a whole. As for forwards, most centers can play wing but not every wing can play center. I'd be fine with prioritizing D, centers, and goalies over wingers. But if a wing is clearly far and away the best BPA according to most of your scouts? Yeah, have to look at that. 

 

BPA is also subjective and every team has different lists. Hell, every scout has different lists. But say you've got a handful of prospects you've got in roughly the same range at x pick? Yeah, I'm not opposed to position being the deciding factor. 

 

I wasn't on board with it, I still think we're a ways off from contention. If we spin our wheels and move out picks and prospects to try and rush "contention" I just don't see it ending with a cup. It baffles me when folks go on and on about a cup as if you just jump right into contender territory after the last ten years we've had. What's more than likely is we're a middle of the pack team vying for a wildcard or a third divisional spot imo. Which ain't fine but it's not territory that'd have me wanting to push chips in either. 

 

If they can make the playoffs that in itself is a step forward, but they need to it once and then show they can do it consistently before I give "contending" any thought. I don't buy the just get in and anything can happen bit, I just don't. You don't get very many Montreal style runs, usually the teams that go deep are the the teams closer to the top of the league for at least a few years. Most teams gotta do their time taking 1st and 2nd round exits before they even get to a conference final, let alone a cup final. Going deep is not easy. We've seen it in recent years with Tampa, Colorado, St. Louis, and Washington. You could even throw Pittsburgh in there, they were always in the mix after their 08-09 cup win before getting to the top of the mountain again. Cup champions don't usually come out of nowhere. 

 

I still think building around the guys who are currently our younger core guys in Pettersson, Hughes, and Podz is the way to go. I'm skeptical as to whether guys like Miller, Boeser, and Horvat will be around and making meaningful impacts once the aforementioned players are our savvy vets. Obviously you work with what you've got, but I'm not sold on this current prime aged/vet grouping as some folks seem to be. Things will play out as they will and we'll see, but my skepticism contributes to my looking more towards the next group. I expect this entire team will largely have turned over by the time we get to 26-27 and I wouldn't be surprised to see a Miller buyout or trade before his deal expires.

 

Right? Here's hoping. 

 

Not interested in rehashing Juolevi/Tkachuk. 

 

But if there's a clear cut BPA? Yeah, I get that. 

 

every organization in hockey has an emphasis on d and c by default anyway, though. if the organization is shallow in those areas, it's not just an oversight. they're aware. with every team coveting them, they're hard to come by. 

[Coconuts]

13 minutes ago, tas said:

every organization in hockey has an emphasis on d and c by default anyway, though. if the organization is shallow in those areas, it's not just an oversight. they're aware. with every team coveting them, they're hard to come by. 

Yes, yes they are. I'd have to go back and it down draft by draft but it seems teams have been more willing to use their 1st on D in recent years. 

[DrJockitch]

For this year think we have good depth of forwards.  If Kuz can translate to the regular season and play a pro level defence it could even be a pretty good forward group. Health is always the concern with a few of our players. 
Long run we will be building around Pettey at C with Podz on his wing as 1st line and JTM as a second line C. We know they will make a bid for a right D at some point and somebody will have to go off the wing. 
I know we haven’t seen anywhere close to the full NHL team but we look even smaller than last year. It is concerning because even the guys in the minors look small.

Should be a very interesting year. If this team stays healthy and gets what Bruce is doing they could be good but still feel there are moves that need to be made and the management has said as much. 

[ShawnAntoski]

Probably best to employ, the same strategy they do with goalies in the draft: on different positions on the ice - with the emphasis on premium positions.  Ofcourse, drafting is the easy part and we all had seen, the lack of player development from Abby/Utica.  Hopefully, with the new FO and various departments the development part, will ALSO improve ?

Edited October 12, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[DSVII]

I think we have to be willing to be patient and experience a few years of purgatory where we are too good to tank but too bad to compete, and trade out players on expiring contracts to accumulate some draft capital, while keeping our picks in the top 100 (Rounds 1 to 3). Myers should be able to fetch something in his contract year, same with Pearson or even Garland. 

 

It's not going to be an overnight fix, it took years of capping out to reach the point where we lost our entire RHD depth in Tanev and Stecher for nothing, it'll take years of bearing some of that pain to rebuild the pipeline and we can't afford to be rash and trade our picks away for other teams to take our cap dumps either. 

 

Patience is the key, even after a decade of frustration, the worst thing we can do now is mortgage the future for a project, unless it is a proven impact player.

[viking mama]

On 10/3/2022 at 4:57 PM, aGENT said:

Unfortunately, with the "win now" Miller signing, I fear it's already too late. Short of stumbling on a mid round McAvoy/K'andre Miller/Chabot type that can actually contribute at a high level in a year or two... we're likely stuck in that cycle of giving up futures for guys other teams wisely drafted. With Miller likely declining before any "wait and see" type D are actually ready. And of course, we'd have to actually draft one of those guys in the mid first to actually get one...

 

Maybe we'll luck out with trading for a guy like Hague or similar that a team can't afford to qualify or find an undrafted college/Euro "Tanev". The gargantuan management staff has to payoff eventually, right?

 

 

RHD are as sought after as centres, and those teams with spares (CGY) aren’t inclined to part with one - especially to aid a division rival.

 

I think Tanev’s unceremonious departure was a particular blow to the club, since they have not managed to adequately replace him - since. 
 

I also find it funny that Stillman thinks he can contribute to this team in the same way he had while  in FLA or CHI. Good luck with that! VAN is NOT in the league BOG President’s good graces nor in his enabled & protected voting block!
 

Unless Rutherford’s presence has  suddenly opened up a door for the Vancouver Canucks & the Aquilinis to become instant insiders,..Stillman & the team’s other D-men, better hope the forward group plays defense off-the-charts better than last season, to endure the anticipated penalty parade. 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by viking mama

[Petey Castiglione]

Developing the defense has been something we all know has been crap and really is our Achilles heel.  In saying that, with an all new development team including the Sedins, there's renewed hope.

 

We do have some interesting projects in the pipeline and the Swedish connection has only gotten stronger.  Let's see if guys like, Johansson, Myrenberg, Person, Truscott, Jurmo can take another step forward.

 

Can Woo, Juulsen, Keeper, Rathbone also take another step?

 

We just added Stillman to the mix, is he a top 6 guy or just a fringe 7.

 

We drafted Petey 2.0 and Kudryavtsev who look like they have good potential while signing Schmiemann as a FA.

 

The development team certainly have their hands full, let's see if they can pull a couple top 4 guys out of that group.  

 

[Coconuts]

2 minutes ago, Petey Castiglione said:

Developing the defense has been something we all know has been crap and really is our Achilles heel.  In saying that, with an all new development team including the Sedins, there's renewed hope.

 

We do have some interesting projects in the pipeline and the Swedish connection has only gotten stronger.  Let's see if guys like, Johansson, Myrenberg, Person, Truscott, Jurmo can take another step forward.

 

Can Woo, Juulsen, Keeper, Rathbone also take another step?

 

We just added Stillman to the mix, is he a top 6 guy or just a fringe 7.

 

We drafted Petey 2.0 and Kudryavtsev who look like they have good potential while signing Schmiemann as a FA.

 

The development team certainly have their hands full, let's see if they can pull a couple top 4 guys out of that group.  

 

Here's hoping, we definitely need to draft more RD though. Every team is hunting for them which makes it tough, you never know who's going to be available at your slot, but at the end of the day we need to find a way to draft more of them. 

 

BPA is important, I get that argument, but if you've got players are a draft slot ranked similarly maybe letting the D position win out isn't a bad thing. Talent wins out, gotta go with BPA, but bottom line is we've gotta find a way to get more RD into our system. Which means being willing to draft them in the first two rounds imo. 

 

Drafting is hard, every team is looking for top 4D, and RD in particular. 

[Forsy]

If {BPA is an Impact Player}, then take BPA

Else {take BPA with organization position need in mind}

You can't trade the BPA picks, but you can trade Impact Players for organizational need.
Having a bunch of prospects that fill a need will just mean we have a bunch of Juolevi's and #5/6 Dman that get us nowhere.
That said, you could find Rathbone-like picks outside of the first round. Good scouting and getting a bunch of Top4 dmen outside of lottery picks is probably the best way to improve our Dman stock without sacrificing Impact Players while maintaining organization needs.