Character, tenacity, aggressiveness........where the hell is it? (discussion)

[DrJockitch]

Can we just dispel this stupid idea that going to a black jersey will make us tougher. That is the dumbest recurring theme on this board and that is saying something. 

[Nucker 67]

1 minute ago, DrJockitch said:

Can we just dispel this stupid idea that going to a black jersey will make us tougher. That is the dumbest recurring theme on this board and that is saying something. 

Well,  they might look better losing?

[EdgarM]

10 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I think this post speaks to just how difficult it is to build a roster that has "tenacity", "toughness", "aggressiveness" and "heart" as part of it's culture. When discussions like this pop up the solution is often presented as trading x for x, or bringing in x when it's not enough to have a couple guys on the roster to play policeman. 

 

The roster you mentioned have plenty of guys willing to step up in Torres, Rome, Bieksa, and so on but also had guys like Kesler, Lapierre, Hansen, Burrows, and even Samuelsson who were willing to be involved in a tenacious style of play. It was most of the roster really. 

 

It's not enough to just parachute a couple of guys in an expect things to change. There were teams with similar cultures to us back then like the Bruins, Kings, and even the Blues. Those Blues teams were feisty, and dirty/favoured or not that Boston team had buy in from the roster. So did the Blues. Additions were made to those teams, including us, over time, but a lot of those players came up together and gradually developed their team culture. It's not something that changes on a dime.

 

If the Canucks want that they'll have to build it, they'll have to develop it. It'll have to factor into drafting, developing, coaching, scouting, and player acquisition. I'm not sure injecting a couple of guys into a team is enough. 

 

Though it's worth noting that the game has changed since the mid to late 2000's and even the early 2010's. The game is different, how guys come up in minor leagues and lesser leagues is different, as is the NHL culture itself. Times have changed.

 

Folks mythologize and crave what may have been more commonplace once upon a time but you don't really see teams built like that anymore. I think toughness, heart, and so on might just look different now. Or maybe we as fans have to adjust our expectations to how things have changed more. 

"It was most of the roster really. " Except for the Captain. Even though we have had toughness in the line up I have seen Nazzy get elbowed in the head, Brashear batted in the head, Daniel elbowed in the head and rabbit punched, Raymond get his back broken, Petey body slammed, Boeser pasted to the boards and a handle to our team that we are a "Country Club". 

The last time we stuck up for ourselves? Bure's elbow and Bert's punch. That's a long time to "not stick up for yourself" or for your team and this happens to be a CONTACT SPORT! Go figure.

[Wolfgang Durst]

It's not about the frame or the physicality. It's more important  to have the right mentality. When you go out there as a player wearing a Canucks jersey I expect from each player to give 100% and not 80%. When you don't play with full effort you are going to lose important puck battles. The following quote from Horvat is quite telling :

 

Horvat: “Everybody in this room knows we can be better and everybody’s got a little bit more to give. I think we can help each other get going.”

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Wolfgang Durst

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

"It was most of the roster really. " Except for the Captain. Even though we have had toughness in the line up I have seen Nazzy get elbowed in the head, Brashear batted in the head, Daniel elbowed in the head and rabbit punched, Raymond get his back broken, Petey body slammed, Boeser pasted to the boards and a handle to our team that we are a "Country Club". 

The last time we stuck up for ourselves? Bure's elbow and Bert's punch. That's a long time to "not stick up for yourself" or for your team and this happens to be a CONTACT SPORT! Go figure.

It was most of the roster, that team wasn't soft by more modern standards. And I don't care if it wasn't the captain, I didn't have an issue with Henrik or Naslund as captains. Every guy isn't going to be that kind of player and there is room on every team for guys who lean more towards skill, even as captains. Hell, most of today's captains fit that mold more. https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-list-of-captains/c-335526652

 

Getting the right mix isn't easy. 32 teams try to do it every season. 

 

Game was different when Bure played, during the early 2000's too. Not applicable anymore, game has changed. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

6 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Heart of a Lion

 

Miller

Pettersson

Podkolzin

Pearson

Garland

Hoglander

Kuzmenko (?)

Mikheyev (?)

Hughes

Schenn

Burroughs

Dermott

Demko

 

Build around these guys, and go back to the "skate" uniforms.

 

 

Country Club - They can go anytime

 

Horvat

Boeser

Myers

Ekman-Larsson

 

 

I actually disagree with you on Myers, Nuck

I just think in his case, he get's pushed up the lineup too far

His numbers were not that bad last year

I would sign him to a 3 year, 3.5 million per, front end loaded and I don't think you would regret it.

No, he is not a 6 million dollar player, but I think he is a 4-5 million dollar player

Take a look at Gudbranson's new contract ....3 year X $4.0 million

 

We just need a big RHD Dman to keep Myers down in that 3/4 spot

 

[Coconuts]

15 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Can we just dispel this stupid idea that going to a black jersey will make us tougher. That is the dumbest recurring theme on this board and that is saying something. 

I think it's hilarious that some folks genuinely believe the jersey colour matters. Folks have positive and negative bias towards certain jerseys, nostalgia and sentiment factor in too. A certain jersey or colour isn't going to make us play tougher. 

[DrJockitch]

7 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I actually disagree with you on Myers, Nuck

I just think in his case, he get's pushed up the lineup too far

His numbers were not that bad last year

I would sign him to a 3 year, 3.5 million per, front end loaded and I don't think you would regret it.

No, he is not a 6 million dollar player, but I think he is a 4-5 million dollar player

Take a look at Gudbranson's new contract ....3 year X $4.0 million

 

We just need a big RHD Dman to keep Myers down in that 3/4 spot

 

Gudbranson’ s contract is an embarrassment that was likely signed to make little Johnny happy. Almost as bad as the Johnson contract that JR signed in Pitt. 
‘Myers as a third pairing slide up 2nd when needed is excellent. As a second pairing, slide up to first when needed is over his head. Dollar values there look about right. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by DrJockitch

[Warhippy]

35 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I've been saying this for years. We're too busy looking for skill. But not for size and speed. Ideally you want all three, but I'll take size and speed, because it will at least make the team miserable to play against.

The thing about all of those guys is that they can all skate, and well.

 

Will they light up the scoreboards every shift?  No, are they electrifying and making amazing plays constantly?  No.  But they are massive, they skate well and if that 3rd line is bearing down on Hughes and OEL what is the result going to be?

[J.I.A.H.N]

8 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

It was most of the roster, that team wasn't soft by more modern standards. And I don't care if it wasn't the captain, I didn't have an issue with Henrik or Naslund as captains. Every guy isn't going to be that kind of player and there is room on every team for guys who lean more towards skill, even as captains. Hell, most of today's captains fit that mold more. https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-list-of-captains/c-335526652

 

Getting the right mix isn't easy. 32 teams try to do it every season. 

 

Game was different when Bure played, during the early 2000's too. Not applicable anymore, game has changed. 

LOL.............wrong!

 

Did you see how big Washington was, and how they played? Edmonton is getting bigger, etc..............yes you can have small guys, but you have to send the message that they won't be allowed to touch them, that cuts down 95 % of the BS

 

Ultimately, you wants a big, fast, skilled tenacious team.......everybody wants that! But you have to start somewhere, and you have to work towards that end............

[Warhippy]

29 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

That is a scoring line and picking the biggest line in the league and saying this is where we should be is somewhat dubious logic. We are small if we aren’t the biggest?  Literally every other line in the league is small then.

‘Are we lacking size absolutely, big time, and skill and speed and depth. We are just lacking as a franchise atm. 
‘it does need to be a draft and develop philosophy and it was one Benning thought he needed when the Kings won, but when the Hawks won we needed to be a skilled team. That man’s plan for the team was like a flag in a hurricane. 
‘I don’t see Allvin as any better so far. He has made some moves to enhance these things but no different than Benning. If anything our top 9 looks smaller this year. Tell you Lekkerimaki is not fixing this.

we need to prioritize size that can skate and right handed shots as part of our draft rankings and atm that seems way down the list. 

That is a large 3rd line yes.

 

But they can also skate well.  they can also play well and they can shoot the puck well.

 

That is a traditional 3rd line as they are defensively sound.  Will wear down anything sent against them.  Punish defense and forwards.  Can block, play shoot and clog lanes.  THAT is a 3rd line that is dangerous anywhere; size not withstanding their style of play is what makes them successful.  Aggressive fast and engaged

 

In comparison to our suggested 3rd line tonight, that's our checking line?  Kuzmenko Pettersson and Lazar?  How will they wear down the BJs forwards?  

 

The funny thing about the 3 players I indicated for the Wings.  They are 2 of the leading scorers on the team while being the biggest threat while on the ice so far.

 

This team just doesn't have an aggressive pair of skates in the roster to speak of at all.  

[J.I.A.H.N]

8 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Gudbranson’ s contract is an embarrassment that was likely signed to make little Johnny happy. Almost as bad as the Johnson contract that JR signed in Pitt. 
‘Myers as a third pairing slide up 2nd when needed is excellent. As a second pairing, slide up to first when needed is over his head. Dollar values there look about right. 

Yeah, I agree he is not a 2 that slides up to 1................but he is in Vancouver..............not fair to us, not fair to him!

That does not mean, is not an effective player when put into the right spot..........

I looked at Myers stats alot last year.............I suggest others do to.

He consistently placed in the middle of the 1/2 RHD in the league........not the LHD, just the RHD

That makes him in the 25 to 50 ish best RHD in the league....I think that is fair to asses him there

Like I say, take a look at the RHD that played over 40 games last year.

[EdgarM]

15 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

It was most of the roster, that team wasn't soft by more modern standards. And I don't care if it wasn't the captain, I didn't have an issue with Henrik or Naslund as captains. Every guy isn't going to be that kind of player and there is room on every team for guys who lean more towards skill, even as captains. Hell, most of today's captains fit that mold more. https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-list-of-captains/c-335526652

 

Getting the right mix isn't easy. 32 teams try to do it every season. 

 

Game was different when Bure played, during the early 2000's too. Not applicable anymore, game has changed. 

So what has changed? If your player gets roughed up, you deal with it. Your goalie gets bumped? you deal with it. We have always said, no retaliation we will get them back on the PP. How has that worked out or changed over the years for us?

To me its a cop out and if the leader is not leading by example why would anyone else on the team do it? For all we know, he is in the dressing room telling them to "let it go" or lets just "hug it out". 

[J.I.A.H.N]

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

That is a large 3rd line yes.

 

But they can also skate well.  they can also play well and they can shoot the puck well.

 

That is a traditional 3rd line as they are defensively sound.  Will wear down anything sent against them.  Punish defense and forwards.  Can block, play shoot and clog lanes.  THAT is a 3rd line that is dangerous anywhere; size not withstanding their style of play is what makes them successful.  Aggressive fast and engaged

 

In comparison to our suggested 3rd line tonight, that's our checking line?  Kuzmenko Pettersson and Lazar?  How will they wear down the BJs forwards?  

 

The funny thing about the 3 players I indicated for the Wings.  They are 2 of the leading scorers on the team while being the biggest threat while on the ice so far.

 

This team just doesn't have an aggressive pair of skates in the roster to speak of at all.  

Not that I don't completely agree with you, but I would just like to point out, that it is not whether you can dish out aggression, but whether you can handle it...........

[Coconuts]

2 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

LOL.............wrong!

 

Did you see how big Washington was, and how they played? Edmonton is getting bigger, etc..............yes you can have small guys, but you have to send the message that they won't be allowed to touch them, that cuts down 95 % of the BS

 

Ultimately, you wants a big, fast, skilled tenacious team.......everybody wants that! But you have to start somewhere, and you have to work towards that end............

How am I wrong? Do you not agree that both the game and how toughness is presented in today's game has changed from the 90's and early 2000's? 

 

Being big in itself isn't toughness. Having a bigger team in itself isn't toughness or aggression. There's an intimidation factor, sure. Size in itself doesn't matter if it's not used, and it boils down to team play. Pyatt was big, didn't play big. So was Bernier, we've had tons of players with size over the years who haven't played a "tough" style. 

 

Culture and how a team plays is more complex than just adding size. 

 

And it's not as if we're a small team either, if you go by average height we're 22nd in the league, if you go by weight we're 20th. And the variance is only within a few pounds or inches from team to team. https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/nhl/teams-physical-stats/2022-2023

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

So what has changed? If your player gets roughed up, you deal with it. Your goalie gets bumped? you deal with it. We have always said, no retaliation we will get them back on the PP. How has that worked out or changed over the years for us?

To me its a cop out and if the leader is not leading by example why would anyone else on the team do it? For all we know, he is in the dressing room telling them to "let it go" or lets just "hug it out". 

The enforcer role doesn't exist, those kind of players have largely been phased out. You don't get as many one dimensional tough guys, playing hockey is actually a requirement now. Fighting in itself has declined, headshots and blindside hits aren't commonplace like they once were. You can't just come up behind a guy and elbow him in the head like Bure did and get away with it. Players who can effectively play the policeman role while being effective players are highly valued as they aren't common. 

 

Pushback has to look different, and it does. The game has changed, hockey culture has changed. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Coconuts

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

The enforcer role doesn't exist, those kind of players have largely been phased out. You don't get as many one dimensional tough guys, playing hockey is actually a requirement now. Fighting in itself has declined, headshots and blindside hits aren't commonplace like they once were. You can't just come up behind a guy and elbow him in the head like Bure did and get away with it. Players who can effectively play the policeman role while being effective players are highly valued as they aren't common. 

 

Pushback has to look different, and it does. The game has changed, hockey culture has changed. 

no, but enforcement does. You can't just be a plug and hit people, but pushback and aggression are certainly still an important part of the game.

[Coconuts]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

no, but enforcement does. You can't just be a plug and hit people, but pushback and aggression are certainly still an important part of the game.

I haven't argued it isn't, but it does look different. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

The enforcer role doesn't exist, those kind of players have largely been phased out. You don't get as many one dimensional tough guys, playing hockey is actually a requirement now. Fighting in itself has declined, headshots and blindside hits aren't commonplace like they once were. You can't just come up behind a guy and elbow him in the head like Bure did and get away with it. Players who can effectively play the policeman role while being effective players are highly valued as they aren't common. 

 

Pushback has to look different, and it does. The game has changed, hockey culture has changed. 

I totally agree with you, the game has changed.................

 

But yet there is still sticks in the face and high sticks, and everyone scrumming, and no punches thrown, sends no message.............that is what Horvat sees as "Team Toughness", a good old barn dance........lots of bumping and jawing, but nothing serious!

 

Did you see Hathaway last night cruising around after the whistle.............you gotta have someone stand up to that, and tell him to F - off with a crosscheck push............that dares him to respond, and maybe chance a penalty...........that is not his objective............but if it happened last night, my money would have been Hathaway......that affects a game

 

Yes, players have to have talent, but size still matters!

[JM_]

Just now, Coconuts said:

I haven't argued it isn't, but it does look different. 

for sure. Even Lucic is starting to age out of the role he had, which wasn't anything like McSorely. Its more like Kane, minus the civil suits.