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[Discussion] Do You Have the Stomach For a Rebuild?

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Warhippy

Would You Accept A Rebuild?  

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4 minutes ago, EP Phone Home said:

You are the Preacher in Penticton and I’m all for it. Such a sad reality that the best drafted and developed RD was juice. At some point you would think our scouting for this position has to drastically change no? You have been a very loud advocator of this glaring organizational weakness for awhile. I strongly appreciate it. Somethings got to change it has to. It’s why we are in this mess with no contingency plan on the farm and on the roster. It’s long overdue my friend. 

So going back to 2004, here are the RHD we've drafted exactly 11 RHD.  We have been screaming for RHD since 2011/2012.  Like keyed in as one of the most insane needs in the organization outside of a right shooting centre.  Look at this list.  What is the single most valuable asset to have in this league right now?  RHD.  Large smooth skating minute eating RHD.  We've drafted 11 in 18 years and only 1 higher than the 5th round.  Of those drafted almost all of them were never offered a contract outside of junior

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=62603

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=83269

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122621

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122668

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122853

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=145088

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160385

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=180273

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=187372

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=233678

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=241808

 

The issue is as I have stated.  


We need the following.  We need therm to have size.  We need them durable and we need to have them 

 

Top pairing RHD.

Middle pairing RHD of size to eat minutes.

Minimum 2 quality fill in RHD prospects.

 

Middle and bottom pairing LHD of size to eat minutes

 

Top line RW

Middle 6 RW

tope flight RW prospect as our best option now is Boeser

 

Middle 6 LW

Bottom 6 LW

 

At this stage, to obtain those assets of the most critical importance, two top 4/top 2 large smooth skating RHD would cost assets we don't have and can't afford to give up.  Those large minute munching LHD?    Top line RW?  We do not have those assets.  To draft them means acquiring assets to do so in numbers to beat the odds.  To then develop them takes years and we haven't developed a single gd player in our organization worth speaking of since the Moose years and that crop that came into their own for the 2009-2012 runs of Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa, edler, Hansen

 

By the time we acquire the cap space and assets to actually say we have the pieces and depth in those positions we need; Pettersson will be nearly 30, Hughes as well.  We just don't have what it takes to obtain or retain them with our assets and cap space.

 

Does this suck?  hell yes it does.  But we can not ignore positions of need that are THAT important for 2 decades and pretend that we can just fill them in the bargain bin with 31 other teams wanting the EXACT same things with far more assets and cap space to obtain them

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I made it through the sundin, chip boy dark times. I just want a gm, coach that gives me confidence that they have some kind of plan. I want to be entertained and I want my team to be tough. I’m sure many of you watch other teams , other games. I don’t , it’s Canucks or nothing.

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17 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

So going back to 2004, here are the RHD we've drafted exactly 11 RHD.  We have been screaming for RHD since 2011/2012.  Like keyed in as one of the most insane needs in the organization outside of a right shooting centre.  Look at this list.  What is the single most valuable asset to have in this league right now?  RHD.  Large smooth skating minute eating RHD.  We've drafted 11 in 18 years and only 1 higher than the 5th round.  Of those drafted almost all of them were never offered a contract outside of junior

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=62603

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=83269

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122621

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122668

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122853

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=145088

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160385

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=180273

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=187372

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=233678

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=241808

 

The issue is as I have stated.  


We need the following.  We need therm to have size.  We need them durable and we need to have them 

 

Top pairing RHD.

Middle pairing RHD of size to eat minutes.

Minimum 2 quality fill in RHD prospects.

 

Middle and bottom pairing LHD of size to eat minutes

 

Top line RW

Middle 6 RW

tope flight RW prospect as our best option now is Boeser

 

Middle 6 LW

Bottom 6 LW

 

At this stage, to obtain those assets of the most critical importance, two top 4/top 2 large smooth skating RHD would cost assets we don't have and can't afford to give up.  Those large minute munching LHD?    Top line RW?  We do not have those assets.  To draft them means acquiring assets to do so in numbers to beat the odds.  To then develop them takes years and we haven't developed a single gd player in our organization worth speaking of since the Moose years and that crop that came into their own for the 2009-2012 runs of Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa, edler, Hansen

 

By the time we acquire the cap space and assets to actually say we have the pieces and depth in those positions we need; Pettersson will be nearly 30, Hughes as well.  We just don't have what it takes to obtain or retain them with our assets and cap space.

 

Does this suck?  hell yes it does.  But we can not ignore positions of need that are THAT important for 2 decades and pretend that we can just fill them in the bargain bin with 31 other teams wanting the EXACT same things with far more assets and cap space to obtain them

Post of the year!
 

Very happy you made this thread. It’s long overdue.

 

 

With what you said with regards to our competitive timeline it would take to rebuild our defence, without a rebuild our timeline would be all

F-ed up. There is no way around it. Thank you WH for this post and all the hard hitting facts that the people running the team MUST come to grips with. 

 

A858EA88-B8B0-4AEF-969D-F61A25BD9711.gif

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5 minutes ago, EP Phone Home said:

Post of the year!
 

Very happy you made this thread. It’s long overdue.

A858EA88-B8B0-4AEF-969D-F61A25BD9711.gif

It's like, if I need 2 tires and oil for my car.  I am not going to leave two donuts on the rim and then complain that finding a mechanic is hard 14 years later when my engine is seized up and now both of my other tires are dead because I kept buying air fresheners and detail appointments instead of addressing the gd issue

 

The sad thing is, people are STILL going to argue that we can just...supplement it.  If we just package pearson and Hoglander we can get a 1-2 RHD and then we can just take on ethan Bear as well and that's our RHD woes taken care of because that's how it works right?

 

We have zero cap space.

We have zero depth

We have zero assets to trade that won't gut this team in other places

We have zero prospects we can afford to trade

 

We have Demko, Hughes, Pettersson.  That's what's keeping our team afloat but they're also our only true assets to fix things.  Therefore to fix things we're taking major steps backwards so wtf is the point?  Blow it up because we are currently sucking harder than Arizona and they actually have a brighter future in terms of picks/prospects and cap space which is shockingly gd embarassing

Edited by Warhippy
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2 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

It's like, if I need 2 tires and oil for my car.  I am not going to leave two donuts on the rim and then complain that finding a mechanic is hard 14 years later when my engine is seized up and now both of my other tires are dead because I kept buying air fresheners and detail appointments instead of addressing the gd issue

 

The sad thing is, people are STILL going to argue that we can just...supplement it.  If we just package pearson and Hoglander we can get a 1-2 RHD and then we can just take on ethan Bear as well and that's our RHD woes taken care of because that's how it works right?

 

We have zero cap space.

We have zero depth

We have zero assets to trade that won't gut this team in other places

We have zero prospects we can afford to trade

 

We have Demko, Hughes, Pettersson.  That's what's keeping our team afloat but they're also our only true assets to fix things.  Therefore to fix things we're taking major steps backwards so wtf is the point?  Blow it up because we are currently sucking harder than Arizona and they actually have a brighter future in terms of picks/prospects and cap space which is shockingly gd embarassing

Just for my own edification how long will we be before the blow up shows signs of improvement.  Five years minimum maybe 10 years tops ?.

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If I can add to this. Unless you are a true contender all teams need pieces. How many pieces is the differentiation between rebuild and retool. The Canucks need a rebuild - there are good pieces in place sure, but not enough and perhaps that mix is wrong. 

 

Oddly enough, look at Calgary. They were a decent team with some good players. But they went nowhere (and were going nowhere). And most teams are guilty of this - they keep their core together out of blind belief this is all they can do. Now Calgary sort of lucked into this and I think their window closes quickly (three years tops) but their team got a heart transplant that it desperately needed. Without Gaudreau bailing on them and then Tkachuk not willing to sign, they would have rolled back the same core and got the same result. Honestly every GM needs to look at their core and decide sooner than later - "Is this working?". While I can't guarantee it wins a Cup I can see the Canucks needing to do something this dramatic. Honestly, I don't care who goes - just get the right return. And if it takes a few years for the change so what? It's not like this roster is going to win anything without change anyway. 

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20 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Just for my own edification how long will we be before the blow up shows signs of improvement.  Five years minimum maybe 10 years tops ?.

Now here's the thing.  Are we looking for improvement and growth?  or are we looking for improvement and maintaining the status quo?


because since 23012 we've supplemented what we have and have done literally nothing with it and have an evident plan to continue doing the exact same thing.

 

I would rather risk sucking for 2-3 years and get excited about the future and watching the growth of this team like we did in 2008/2009 because since then, we've basically flat lined since 2012 and it's gotten old.

 

I'd say, provided we had a plan for the next 2 years for running at say, Bedard/Carlsson this year and maybe Micheal Misa in 2025 with an emphasis on supplementary picks to draft our RHD needs maximum 3 years before you see that youth turn around.  5 before you see a challenger emerging.  6-7 before you see a true contender at MAX 7 years.

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14 minutes ago, drofssalg said:

If I can add to this. Unless you are a true contender all teams need pieces. How many pieces is the differentiation between rebuild and retool. The Canucks need a rebuild - there are good pieces in place sure, but not enough and perhaps that mix is wrong. 

 

Oddly enough, look at Calgary. They were a decent team with some good players. But they went nowhere (and were going nowhere). And most teams are guilty of this - they keep their core together out of blind belief this is all they can do. Now Calgary sort of lucked into this and I think their window closes quickly (three years tops) but their team got a heart transplant that it desperately needed. Without Gaudreau bailing on them and then Tkachuk not willing to sign, they would have rolled back the same core and got the same result. Honestly every GM needs to look at their core and decide sooner than later - "Is this working?". While I can't guarantee it wins a Cup I can see the Canucks needing to do something this dramatic. Honestly, I don't care who goes - just get the right return. And if it takes a few years for the change so what? It's not like this roster is going to win anything without change anyway. 

Well that's just it isn't it?

 

Calgary is a very interesting case.

 

They let one of their most valuable assets walk for nothing, then traded their remaining asset while having a solid defensive core and assets in place; and supplemented that forward group with that heart transplant.  Added one of the top free agents who is paying dividends now.

 

For us to do the same would be willingly trading any combo of Pettersson/Hughes/Horvat/Miller except we have a Markstrom in Demko but zero actual depth or defense to speak of so in essence it would again be swapping deck chairs on a sinking ship.  That's the unspoken issue we are faced with.  We can't do this in half measures because we've tried and it doesn't work.

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Want to be sad, feel sad and loathe yourself as a fan for a moment?

 

Here is how some former Canucks are doing.  Look at them; their production then remember what we actually traded them for or how we just let them walk away for nothing.  tell me, do you have the stomach to do this again?  Or would you rather just rebuild 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Frankie coming out and talking about a firm direction that didn't involve spinning our wheels in mediocrity would be welcomed.

 

I'd rather a long haul rebuild that what we've seen on the ice most of the last ten years. If things don't change I'm not sure guys like Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko will want to stay in Vancouver. 

 

Could already see Bo deciding he wants a fresh start, almost all he's done here is come up in a losing environment. 

 

Sure, mediocrity won't change anything around here. I don't care if some think less of me for it, I hope this skid continues. The longer this continues to play out the more apparent it'll be that change needs to occur. We've been bad for years, I'd rather commit to being bad and rebuilding than trying to compete and failing. 

 

We saw it last season with Green, it'd be nice if Aqua came out and said we're going to rebuild the way he came out and addressed things after turfing Benning. 

 

I don't have faith in this veteran group, I'm not even sure the younger guys will want to stay if things don't change sooner than later. 

Agreed, I'm firmly on the rebuild train now. This team doesn't have what it takes and we've poor organizational depth. 

Ten years ago we just won another Presidents trophy, and aside form the regular season, the follow up to a cup final was underwhelming (and, well Quick was unbelievable that cup run too).   That said .. we did miss after that so close enough.   Not the only teams to do that.   Some teams win cups and miss entirely, or go to the final and miss to (LA did).   

 

Don't know what the exact right thing to do is.   But have been saying for awhile now we need a trader like Pat Quin or hate to say it, even Keenan to come in and do the things needed to make things better for later at this point.   I'm not at all worried about Demko, EP or QHs.     All three are committed to Vancouver like it or not, for the next 4/5 years.  Sure it's nice to have good players.   None of these guys have done much yet other then potential, and well some stuff i suppose.   So far Courtnall did more in the post season.  As have others many others.   And Demko isn't Luongo either.    Goaltending is one of the easier positions to fill.  And one of the most fickle too.    Maybe we should be trading him.   I don't know.  

 

Have zero issue with going full tank either.   But think the smart thing to do is start with ONE hockey trade.  Horvat is the obvious choice at this point as far as decent returns go. 

Edited by IBatch
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I don't have the stomach for a non rebuild.  Until this team aims for the cup, instead of mediocrity.  I'm not going to any games of buying any merch.  That's the only way I can voice my displeasure in a way that the owner will understand.

 

Why fire Benning if the new guy is told to do the same crap as the last guy.  

 

One of the worst ran teams in all of sports for a decade. 

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8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Ten years ago we just won another Presidents trophy, and aside form the regular season, the follow up to a cup final was underwhelming (and, well Quick was unbelievable that cup run too).   That said .. we did miss.   Not the only teams to do that.   Some win cups and miss (LA did).   

 

Don't know what the exact right thing to do is.   But have been saying for awhile now we need a trader like Pat Quin or hate to say it, even Keenan to come in and do the things needed to make things better for later at this point.   I'm not at all worried about Demko, EP or QHs.     All three are committed to Vancouver like it or not, for the next 4/5 years.  Sure it's nice to have good players.   None of these guys have done much yet other then potential. 

Demko and Hughes are, sure. Pettersson could walk sooner than later though, all it'd require is him simply accepting his qualifying offer. Pettersson's in his 5th season now, his contract expires going into his seventh, he could simply accept his RFA qualifying offer and then walk to UFA. Demko is signed for three seasons after this one, it's not something to necessarily worry about right now but if this team doesn't improve I question whether he'd want to stay. Same goes for Hughes, who's signed on for four seasons after this one. What we do over the next 2-3 seasons and how we perform as a team could absolutely impact what happens with these three players, and if we fare poorly they may simply decide to move on. The longer it takes for management to get their shit together the larger the possibility these players make their choice for them becomes. 

 

It's not something to panic about but it's something we do need to consider moving forward. Time flies. 

 

I do agree we could use someone willing to make decisive moves, I'm hoping it's JR and Alvin but I'm not so sure. They may just try and stay the course and tinker around the edges. 

Edited by Coconuts
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Just now, Coconuts said:

Demko and Hughes are, sure. Pettersson could walk sooner than later though, all it'd require is him simply accepting his qualifying offer. Pettersson's in his 5th season now, his contract expires going into his seventh, he could simply accept his RFA qualifying offer and then walk to UFA. Demko is signed for three seasons after this one, it's not something to necessarily worry about right now but if this team doesn't improve I question whether he'd want to stay. Same goes for Hughes, who's signed on for four seasons after this one. What we do over the next 2-3 seasons and how we perform as a team could absolutely impact what happens with these three players, and if we fare poorly they may simply decide to move on. 

 

It's not something to panic about but it's something we do need to consider moving forward. Time flies. 

 

I do agree we could use someone willing to make decisive moves, I'm hoping it's JR and Alvin but I'm not so sure. They may just try and stay the course and tinker around the edges. 

Sure if EP signs his two year deal - believe it's two - like Brock - that gets him to free agency, then that's it.   We can also trade him in that case, he won't have any protection.   Neither does Demko.  Neither does QHs.   At least JB didn't bung us up in that respect did he. Good grief we can't have it both ways.  A couple years ago it was total worry and panic over Bo freaking Horvat and even Miller wanting to walk if things didn't turn around.    Not one of these guys, to me anyways, are a Bure or a Linden, or a Smyl.   And well i have pointed out both Naslund and the Sedins didn't get it figured out until their were 26/27, and others like Marchand also did it later on, usually you get a hint earlier that's going to happen.   Brock is who he is.  Horvat is who he is.  Miller is who he is.   So is Demko.   We can't worry about what EP and QHs could become at this point.   Allvin sure isn't.  we have both for another four-five years, no matter what they want if they want to play in this league.  

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15 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Want to be sad, feel sad and loathe yourself as a fan for a moment?

 

Here is how some former Canucks are doing.  Look at them; their production then remember what we actually traded them for or how we just let them walk away for nothing.  tell me, do you have the stomach to do this again?  Or would you rather just rebuild 

 

 

And that’s without even talking about Rasmus Andersson (the player is who was the 2nd rounder that we traded to Calgary for Sven Bärtschi) you know the 50 point +30 Right Side D that we have been waiting for… It’s almost a tragic comedy at this point:sadno:

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2 minutes ago, EP Phone Home said:

And that’s without even talking about Rasmus Andersson (the player is who was the 2nd rounder that we traded to Calgary for Sven Bärtschi) you know the 50 point +30 Right Side D that we have been waiting for… It’s almost a tragic comedy at this point:sadno:

JB wouldn't have drafted him. 

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6 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I reckon we wouldn't lose the players I've mentioned for nothing, we'd have no choice but to trade them. But it may very well be over the next few years that nobody is untouchable if things continue to go poorly. 

It's very reasonable, to do a COL style re-set to the rebuild or even EDM one really.   EDM did keep RNH.   There is nothing saying that we can't trade everyone older then EP (including or not including Demko) that we can.   These guys get it.   Or at least i hope they would ... not entirely sure because Toews seemed dumber then a bag of cement that it was his and Kanes deal that cratered their team.   Anyways, it should start with a trade.  Horvat is the likely candidate at this point. 

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1 minute ago, IBatch said:

JB wouldn't have drafted him. 

With the lack of RD that the organization has drafted in the last 18 seasons that @Warhippy has well documented, you are probably right about that. A fanbase has needs. We need RD as much as we need air to breath. This team is dead without a revamp in the scouting/draft plan. 18 YEARS of this man!

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3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Sure if EP signs his two year deal - believe it's two - like Brock - that gets him to free agency, then that's it.   We can also trade him in that case, he won't have any protection.   Neither does Demko.  Neither does QHs.   At least JB didn't bung us up in that respect did he. Good grief we can't have it both ways.  A couple years ago it was total worry and panic over Bo freaking Horvat and even Miller wanting to walk if things didn't turn around.    Not one of these guys, to me anyways, are a Bure or a Linden, or a Smyl.   And well i have pointed out both Naslund and the Sedins didn't get it figured out until their were 26/27, and others like Marchand also did it later on, usually you get a hint earlier that's going to happen.   Brock is who he is.  Horvat is who he is.  Miller is who he is.   So is Demko.   We can't worry about what EP and QHs could become at this point.   Allvin sure isn't.  we have both for another four-five years, no matter what they want if they want to play in this league.  

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, seven NHL seasons gets you to UFA. According to Capfriendly teams must extend a qualifying offer to a restricted free agent to retain negotiation rights. A qualifying offer is an official Standard Player Contract (SPC) offer which shall be 1 year in length, and which can be subject to salary arbitration should the player be eligible. That last year, the qualifying offer year, would be his seventh. He'd be free after that. 

 

But sure, we can trade him, and everyone else before it gets to that point if it appears he's not interested in staying. My point though is that what happens over these next few seasons will impact that, there is pressure for management to start sorting their shit out sooner than later. If we're not already at a crossroads we could be fast approaching one if the losing continues. 

 

I'd like to keep Pettersson, Hughes, and Podz. I'm on the fence about Demko as there are pros and cons to moving him. There's no guarantee any rebuild is a short term rebuild, and he's capable of singlehandedly keeping us from drafting top 5. If it comes down to it I'd be willing to move everyone on this roster for the right price. 

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