Exactly where are we as a franchise? (Discussion)

[VegasCanuck]

Vancouver

[VegasCanuck]

5 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

Full rebuild with EP,QH,Bo we would get great returns.

 

Test well be lucky to get a good return but would help.  

 

Total tank get a top 3 pick and a couple other 1sts thus year would be better then keeping players and again hoping for the best.

And, 4 years from now, half the people on this board are going to say, we would get great returns by trading the guys we got for EP, QH and BO....

 

We have the talent level here to be competitive and to compete, but we don't have the right MIX of talent. We need to make a couple of good hockey trades to balance our team. We have let go, most of the guys who REALLY defend.

 

As much as everyone hated Jay Beagle etc, he would drop down and block a shot to defend without thinking about it. Schenn is really the only guy that we have on our penalty kill, who's doing that consistently right now.

 

 

[Father Ryan]

None of the above, Jan.

 

For me:

Stays - Petersson, Kuzmenko, Michaev, Horvat, Aman, Lazar, Joshua, Podkolzin (forwards)  Hughes, Schenn, Bear, Burroughs (Dmen) in goal is set for now, can't see Demko struggling all year...unless there is an undisclosed injury, in which case someone in management needs their head examined (even more).

Goes - Miller, Garland, Pearson, Boeser (forwards) OEL, Myers, Rathbone, Stillman. (Dmen) jury is still out on Dermott. Poolman needs to follow Ferland into LTIR retirement.

 

I'm not a GM, so not going to say HOW to get rid of the aforementioned players. Garland is likely the only one that could be somewhat easily moved, along with Rathbone. If the return was right, I might even be convinced to move Hughes...though it would take one hell of an offer to do it. 

 

I'm not saying tank, but if clearing the house of the players that are ineffective or utterly overpaid (looking at you, Miller) causes the team to sink, so be it. It's about time some management has the brass ones to tell the owners to forget about playoff $$ for a few years until a competitive team can be built for the long term. Don't even think to tell me that 2 playoff games will make up the difference from 41 home games with lousy attendance.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

This is why I lean more towards everyone being on the table, I'm not sure we should have any untouchables at this point. Ideally we'd keep Pettersson but he'll be a pending RFA who's a qualifying offer away from UFA sooner than later. 

 

A player can become a UFA if their current contract ends after either 7 Accrued Seasons or they are 27 or older as of June 30, this is Pettersson's fifth season and he's got one more season remaining on his current deal. At the end of this deal all he'd have to do is accept his one year qualifying offer and he could walk at the end of that season.

 

A rebuild could be a lengthy, painful process but it's not as if we haven't already experienced that most of the past decade already. I'd rather be bad than mediocre. At least there'd be a concrete direction in the form of gradually working to build from the ground up. 

 

As usual, you and I agree on pretty much everything. I will say, all the fretting people are doing on what Pettersson may/may not do in 2 years is a "tomorrow" problem. They need to start taking steps now, to start tearing down this roster over this and next season, and adding as much as they can in the interim, to show him there's some direction here. If he wants out at that TDL, we deal with that then. And we'll get a hefty return if he does.

 

As for where we are...

[Coconuts]

11 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

As usual, you and I agree on pretty much everything. I will say, all the fretting people are doing on what Pettersson may/may not do in 2 years is a "tomorrow" problem. They need to start taking steps now, to start tearing down this roster over this and next season, and adding as much as they can in the interim, to show him there's some direction here. If he wants out at that TDL, we deal with that then. And we'll get a hefty return if he does.

 

As for where we are...

It's true, Pettersson isn't an immediate concern but more of a sooner than later decision. If he wants to stay, great. If he doesn't we'll have to trade him, that's just how it goes. We won't have the leverage to keep him around as an RFA after this deal, it'll either be a real contract or it'll be a trade of his accepting his qualifying offer. Which is the worst case scenario because we can't lose top assets for nothing.

 

But in the meantime, sell the vets and strip it down. Wouldn't be surprised to see a trade sooner than later, if the fans can see where this roster is competitively or in terms of it's chances of making the playoffs management sure as hell can too. Or so you'd hope. 

[fanfor42]

There are only 3 things to consider:

 

1. This team can score.  That is a very good thing and should not be overlooked.

 

2. We need Demko to return to close to bubble boy. if not we won't win much.

 

3. We need to add 2 top 4 D.

 

I like point 1.  Point 2 has a very good chance of happening.

 

Point 3 is the big question.  How to do that with limited cap and limited assets to trade without screwing up point number 1?

 

If JR is any good he will figure it out.  If not he will dismantle the team after another year or so of losing. 

 

We shall see...

Edited November 16, 2022 by fanfor42

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Middling/Mediocre/ Inconsistent. At a crossroads of what to do about it. 
 

I say tear down because it is the more concrete course of action. Tearing down is more of a matter of when it will work rather than if while the other options present more of a matter of if it will work rather than when. 

Aren't we close to where the Soilers were when they had a young group of guys they were trying to build around a few years back: Nuge, Hall, Eberle?  They soon figured out their young core guys weren't good enough to be a top team, even if they build a great support group.  So they went into a bottom feeder rebuild and got lucky with the draft.  The LOSER LEAFS went into their deep diving rebuild to get Matthews and their young key core.  

Is our young key core like that Coiler team, or more like the LOSER LEAFS have now?  Should we KABOOM it all or try to build a great supporting cast around our young key core?

IMHAO we need to commit to one or the other, and stop trying to do both.  

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

It's true, Pettersson isn't an immediate concern but more of a sooner than later decision. If he wants to stay, great. If he doesn't we'll have to trade him, that's just how it goes. We won't have the leverage to keep him around as an RFA after this deal, it'll either be a real contract or it'll be a trade of his accepting his qualifying offer. Which is the worst case scenario because we can't lose top assets for nothing.

We can sign him to his QO and trade him at any point after that (that season) as well.

 

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

But in the meantime, sell the vets and strip it down. Wouldn't be surprised to see a trade sooner than later, if the fans can see where this roster is competitively or in terms of it's chances of making the playoffs management sure as hell can too.

Yup, and as I've said elsewhere, it won't be the "dead weight" everyone wants to see moved out, that will go first.

 

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Or so you'd hope. 

Sweet Gordie I hope so.

 

 

[JM_]

4 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So, I have been asking myself, exactly what do we need to be a competitive team? Are we the team that played lights out after Christmas last year, or are we the team, that plays 2 different games, every night, this year? 

 

Well one thing for sure, we have to replace Dmen, and fix the team defense. But what I am more curious about, and what I have been asking myself repeatedly, is where are we in our rebuild?

 

Are we a team that..............

 

A ) Is it a team that is one or two players away from being a legit contender?

B ) A team full of veterans and young guns just around the corner from breaking out?

C ) Or are we a team that will age out before we actually become competitive ?

 

Another question that raises it ugly head is..............

 

Can we fix our problems before our core starts to hit their UFA years? It is the biggest question I have, really! We are facing that with Bo, now, and you can not blame him if he wonders, if he will ever be on a consistently winning team, and whether it is worth sticking around. Well, like many posters on CDC who ask, if Pettersson will ask that very same question in 2 years. I point out Pettersson, because he will be 26, turning 27 when his contract runs out in 2 years. (27 on Nov. of the 2024-2025 season). Demko is even older and will be 29 when he ends his current contract. 

 

With only Lekkerimaki, as our only legit prospect, it is hard to see where our young core will come from. Yes, our first this year will add to that, but I do not see where either Lekkerimaki or this years first, is going to make that much of a difference short term. (Short of landing Bedard in this years draft). Will either actually help this current rendition of the Canucks?

 

The other question that keeps coming out, is will Myers leaving this or next year, actually make a positive difference? IMO, we are so short of RHD, and so hard against the cap, especially with Bo, Kuzmenko, and a 2 years later Pettersson's contracts up, that any savings from Myers, will be going into these guys. If we keep them.

 

It is surely a mess! 

 

So, who of our current core goes to fix the problems we have? Well, currently Horvat looks to be on thin ice, negotiation wise (His play is stellar). So ok, we move Bo, for what and from whom? Most teams can not take Bo's contract on without moving Cap back to us, so who is willing to give us a RHD that has similar value? And will that be enough? And who fills in for Bo, and who takes his Faceoff and replaces his 30 goals a year?

 

Does taking picks and prospects fill the need to fix our problems? Nope! Not alone! Even if we get a Pullock type of return on him, which fills the need for a number one RHD and Cap swap, there is still the hole created by moving Bo, and still no prospect depth...........It is not an easy fix, as there are multiple problems, with constraints everywhere.

 

Moving everyone but Pettersson, Hughes and Demko as some suggests......does that really fix the problem? Or boot it down the road, in terms of a rebuild. Again, go back to the start of this post and answer the question.......how does Pettersson, Hughes and Demko respond to a move like that?

 

So, ok, we move Horvat for a needed Dman, then move Boeser/Garland/Kuzmenko/Podkolzin etc and get a 3rd line center (maybe!)  Who do we get for anyone of them? Is that the fix? Does a another rebuilding team give us their good 3rd line center for any of them........probably not! Maybe Podkolzin, maybe Kuzmenko? Meh, maybe ? So, what is the fix? What is the cost? What is the cap cost?

 

I invite your thoughts on this...........what kind of team are we? and can it be fixed without tearing it down?

Yes

Yes

Could be.

 

Right now I feel that a blow up is the only way we're going to get the right kind of elite talent and be able to properly support that talent when those kids are ready to start competing in 3 years.

 

But maybe there's a miracle trade that rights the ship no one has seen coming.

 

 

[c00kies]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Aren't we close to where the Soilers were when they had a young group of guys they were trying to build around a few years back: Nuge, Hall, Eberle?  They soon figured out their young core guys weren't good enough to be a top team, even if they build a great support group.  So they went into a bottom feeder rebuild and got lucky with the draft.  The LOSER LEAFS went into their deep diving rebuild to get Matthews and their young key core.  

Is our young key core like that Coiler team, or more like the LOSER LEAFS have now?  Should we KABOOM it all or try to build a great supporting cast around our young key core?

IMHAO we need to commit to one or the other, and stop trying to do both.  

I agree! Our top-end guys aren't good enough and we don't have a good defense. 

 

Bedard would be a huge, but impossible piece.

 

Hard to build out of this, so better to tear it down and start again.

[Nucker 67]

With the captain apparently done in Vancouver, I'm wondering how long JR/PA will wait before making a decision.

 

Not the season I wanted at all, but this is the team they have, and if the losing continues, I'm hoping JR/PA make a decision to sell assets, collect 1st and 2nd rounders, maybe prospects, and go all in for Bedard, or at least a Top 3 pick. I believe JR even commented once that it's hard to win without a 1st overall. And it is. The 2023 Draft is the year to do it.

 

Maybe they keep a core of:

 

Miller

Pettersson

Mikheyev

Podkolzin

Lazar

Hughes

Bear

Demko 

[Coconuts]

14 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We can sign him to his QO and trade him at any point after that (that season) as well.

 

Yup, and as I've said elsewhere, it won't be the "dead weight" everyone wants to see moved out, that will go first.

 

Sweet Gordie I hope so.

 

 

That's just it. I keep seeing folks say they don't want to trade Horvat, Pettersson, Demko, Hughes, Schenn, Kuzmenko, Podz, Miller, ect. But the reality is it's the players that folks want to keep that other teams would have interest in. 

 

You're not getting much for Myers or Pearson til maybe next year's trade deadline, you might not even get much then, maybe you make a lateral trade. OEL isn't going anywhere. Garland has value but it'll take more than trading Garland. You're not gonna get the moon for a Boeser that hasn't scored all season, even if he is picking up assists. And even then, teams might not like his production vs cap hit. There's no guarantee he'd be easy to trade or that we'd get much value back.

 

You're not gonna move the needle tinkering around the edges, and you're not going to get much value back. Hell, depending on who you want to move you may actually have to pay. I agree it likely won't be the "dead weight" that gets traded out, teams aren't gonna be lining up to ask about those players. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Coconuts

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

That's just it. I keep seeing folks say they don't want to trade Horvat, Pettersson, Demko, Hughes, Schenn, Kuzmenko, Podz, Miller, ect. But the reality is it's the players that folks want to keep that other teams would have interest in. 

 

You're not getting much for Myers or Pearson til maybe next year's trade deadline, you might not even get much then, maybe you make a lateral trade. OEL isn't going anywhere. Garland has value but it'll take more than trading Garland. You're not gonna get the moon for a Boeser that hasn't scored all season, even if he is picking up assists. And even then, teams might not like his production vs cap hit. There's no guarantee he'd be easy to trade or that we'd get much value back.

 

You're not gonna move the needle tinkering around the edges, and you're not going to get much value back. Hell, depending on who you want to move you may actually have to pay. I agree it likely won't be the "dead weight" that gets traded out, teams aren't gonna be lining up to ask about those players. 

Yup. Realistically this year we'd be moving any of Miller, Horvat, Kuzmenko, Bear, Schenn and Dermott as options.

 

Not Myers, Pearson, Poolman, OEL etc. People are really not grasping the situation 

 

Next year we can look at selling Myers and Pearson at the TDL and extend/qualify Petey.

 

By that point we should have plenty of cap space to take on players for assets or acquire pending RFA's for cheap (though a rising cap will make that less easy than it was this past summer *cough* Marino *cough*)..

[Comeback_Kings]

trade one of or two or three of Boeser, Pearson, OEL, Myers, Garland, Miller immediately to create enough money/cap space to sign Bo Horvat to a long term contract.  

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Yup. Realistically this year we'd be moving any of Miller, Horvat, Kuzmenko, Bear, Schenn and Dermott as options.

 

Not Myers, Pearson, Poolman, OEL etc. People are really not grasping the situation 

 

Next year we can look at selling Myers and Pearson at the TDL and extend/qualify Petey.

 

By that point we should have plenty of cap space to take on players for assets or acquire pending RFA's for cheap (though a rising cap will make that less easy than it was this past summer *cough* Marino *cough*)..

Bear could be a rehabilitate and sell option, not sure we'd get much for Dermott given he's a relative unknown as a Canuck and he's yet to play this season, I think it's more likely he just stays and is qualified. 

 

But the others you mentioned, plus Garland? Yeah, that's probably the group we'll take calls on. Although I wouldn't be shocked for teams to sniff around Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko. All of whom I'd move for the right offer, although the costs of acquiring Hughes or Pettersson would be massive. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Coconuts

[Nucker 67]

Just had a thought:  What if VAN trades Schenn to NJ?

 

Quinn obviously loves playing with family-friend Schenn, but suddenly Schenn would be playing on Jack and Luke's team. Oh, the envy, and the frustration that the Canucks would do that - trade the only D partner he's been comfortable with.

 

Would Quinn maybe want to join his brothers and Schenn in NJ? 

 

This crossed my mind because I think Schenn might get traded. Apparently there are other teams very interested in acquiring him. Be curious if he goes to NJ.

[wai_lai416]

we are a team with some extreme opposite ends of talents.. we have some really high end talents.. and then more than half the team below average to bottom of the barrel talent. not enough average talents to keep the team competitive

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Bear could be a rehabilitate and sell option, not sure we'd get much for Dermott given he's a relative unknown as a Canuck and he's yet to play this season, I think it's more likely he just stays and is qualified. 

 

But the others you mentioned, plus Garland? Yeah, that's probably the group we'll take calls on.

Yeah not opposed to keeping Bear (or Dermott), but I'd certainly entertain offers as well. Here's hoping Dermott gets healthy and plays some before the TDL. And I forgot Garland as well, yes.

 

6 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Although I wouldn't be shocked for teams to sniff around Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko. All of whom I'd move for the right offer, although the costs of acquiring Hughes or Pettersson would be massive. 

Yup and YUP.

[KirkSave]

We are stuck in mediocre purgatory.

 

We have key foundational pieces but have to continue to draft and importantly develop our players. If we can "Actually" improve the D. Glad Burroughs and Bear are playing well. Hoping Rathbone can get going too. Riding ourselves of Myers is number 1 on my list of things to do. He has been atrocious this year!

[KirkSave]

30 minutes ago, Comeback_Kings said:

trade one of or two or three of Boeser, Pearson, OEL, Myers, Garland, Miller immediately to create enough money/cap space to sign Bo Horvat to a long term contract.  

guy in bold is not going to get traded. why sign a core player to a 7 year deal just to ship him out. Miller ain't the problem. It's the D and Demkos terrible start, plus the teams fragility when it comes to holding onto a lead...so far. Still lots of hockey left to be played.

 

Move out Myers for sure!!