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Exactly where are we as a franchise? (Discussion)


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Remember when some people and management said we needed to outbid and overpay for underperforming players who would teach our core to be better?

Well now our core is getting prime and we are still at the bottom and capped out:(, This is where you are to bring in younger cheaper prospects to play with your core and now we have no prospects to insert in our lineup, The team was not well constructed to ever compete out of the bottom and for the future the last 8+ years

Bold moves will be needed along with more poor seasons most likely

No gain comes with no pain and we have had more pain longer than most teams and now are at a crossroads at which road to take

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10 minutes ago, KirkSave said:

guy in bold is not going to get traded. why sign a core player to a 7 year deal just to ship him out. Miller ain't the problem. It's the D and Demkos terrible start, plus the teams fragility when it comes to holding onto a lead...so far. Still lots of hockey left to be played.

 

Move out Myers for sure!!

not predicting, just saying what i'd do.  I'd move any Canuck money roster player not named Pettersson, Hughes and Demko if it meant signing Bo Horvat to an extension today. 
 

 

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We have 2 Centremen in the top 7 scoring (amongst centremen)...one of them challenging McDavid for the Richard.

We have 4 Wingers in the top 100 scoring (amongst wingers)

We have 3 Dmen in the top 50 scoring (amongst Dmen)

 

I'd say our offence is very well balanced and has been well constructed (contracts aside).

 

Now, on the other side of the Redline, our top goaltender (Martin) is 50th in SV% and 56th in GAA.

Our penalty kill is dead last in the league.

 

Here's the paradox: in order to get the 2 solid Dmen we need to fix our defensive woes, we will have to give up some of that offence...so there we sit, stuck in the middle again...

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1 hour ago, aGENT said:

 

As usual, you and I agree on pretty much everything. I will say, all the fretting people are doing on what Pettersson may/may not do in 2 years is a "tomorrow" problem. They need to start taking steps now, to start tearing down this roster over this and next season, and adding as much as they can in the interim, to show him there's some direction here. If he wants out at that TDL, we deal with that then. And we'll get a hefty return if he does.

 

As for where we are...

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I think if we’re going to fully tear it down and do a complete rebuild. Pettersson should be our top candidate to be moved. His value is at its highest right now rather than two years from now, due to his RFA status. Teams will be hesitant to give up a massive haul for him, knowing he could easily take his QO and walk to UFA the next summer. I mean, look at what Ottawa gave up for DeBrincat. 
 

Right now, he could easily fetch us two young roster players and a pick. In two years, he likely just fetch us picks and prospects. Which wouldn’t help us in any way, nearing the completion of our rebuild. 

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46 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

we are a team with some extreme opposite ends of talents.. we have some really high end talents.. and then more than half the team below average to bottom of the barrel talent. not enough average talents to keep the team competitive

This is true of almost every team, and there-in lies the unfortunate paradox of free-agency. The NHL is made up of 3 classes (just like society). Problem is, the middle class is quickly disappearing (just like society). It appears as though one of 2 things happens, the player excels during his middle class salary years (JT Miller for example) and then wants to get paid...he now bumps to the higher class of paid players. This leaves fewer dollars to fill in the similar role needed, so the overall AVERAGE of talent goes down slightly. OR the guy falls off a cliff and ends up in the K or Europe somewhere. All we can do is hope that some of the lower end paid talent has an exceptional year or 2 on the lower salary to balance that out. But then THEY want to get paid when they do. Wash, rinse, repeat. The same story plays out year after year for most clubs. The only way to really defeat that is if you can recognize the superstar early and pay him a middle class wage throughout your competitive years (ie/ MacKinnon, Pastrnak, E.Lindholm etc)...couple that savings with just the right rentals and you could actually keep a solid core together for a 2-4 year compete window. Couple that with a few diamonds in the rough (guys who excel on ELC's) and you will have a true contender.

 

In another post I mentioned the money we have laid out for OEL, Myers and Poolman. If that money was translated into more defensive minded Dmen (ie/ Severson / Slavin types) then we'd have a much better balance and much more achievable compete window. But I fear that we will waste the best years from Horvat, Pettersson, Hughes etc by not being able to give that support due to a few lousy anchoring contracts...and of course Miller peaking / being aged just a bit off for this group. The outlook would be rosier if he was just 2 years younger and still on that beauty contract for a couple more years...but, dare to dream...

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4 minutes ago, ABNuck said:

This is true of almost every team, and there-in lies the unfortunate paradox of free-agency. The NHL is made up of 3 classes (just like society). Problem is, the middle class is quickly disappearing (just like society). It appears as though one of 2 things happens, the player excels during his middle class salary years (JT Miller for example) and then wants to get paid...he now bumps to the higher class of paid players. This leaves fewer dollars to fill in the similar role needed, so the overall AVERAGE of talent goes down slightly. OR the guy falls off a cliff and ends up in the K or Europe somewhere. All we can do is hope that some of the lower end paid talent has an exceptional year or 2 on the lower salary to balance that out. But then THEY want to get paid when they do. Wash, rinse, repeat. The same story plays out year after year for most clubs. The only way to really defeat that is if you can recognize the superstar early and pay him a middle class wage throughout your competitive years (ie/ MacKinnon, Pastrnak, E.Lindholm etc)...couple that savings with just the right rentals and you could actually keep a solid core together for a 2-4 year compete window. Couple that with a few diamonds in the rough (guys who excel on ELC's) and you will have a true contender.

 

In another post I mentioned the money we have laid out for OEL, Myers and Poolman. If that money was translated into more defensive minded Dmen (ie/ Severson / Slavin types) then we'd have a much better balance and much more achievable compete window. But I fear that we will waste the best years from Horvat, Pettersson, Hughes etc by not being able to give that support due to a few lousy anchoring contracts...and of course Miller peaking / being aged just a bit off for this group. The outlook would be rosier if he was just 2 years younger and still on that beauty contract for a couple more years...but, dare to dream...

that is not true of every team.. we have far more below average talents than a lot of teams. if we have average talent on defence we'd be laughing. outside of hughes the top end and schenn maybe OEL average to slightly below.. everyone else is almost well below if not bottom of the barrel. ideally you want 1-2 top end 2-3 mid and 1-2 low talent on ur defence. the team spent way too much money on middle talent on forwards.. between boeser pearson mikhayev garland that's 20-21mil right there. JR spent the cap poorly over the summer. if u re-sign boeser then there's no reason to bring in mikhayev he created a massive log jam of forwards.. did he really need to spend almost 12mil on 2 forwards? to play in a top 9 role? when you already have kuzmenko garland podkolzin hoglander either boeser or mikhayev.. what was the reasoning to bring in 5 forwards for 4 top 6 spots. did he really think we can roll with 3 lines and just outscore every other team to mask the teams issue? i'd be happier if he didn't either re-sign boeser or mikhayev and sit around with 5-6mil of cap space and see if we coulda proach a cap casualty player from somewhere.. the management spent too much effort and cap on unnecessary places this off season added to the issue on where the team is now. 

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5 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

that is not true of every team.. we have far more below average talents than a lot of teams. if we have average talent on defence we'd be laughing. outside of hughes the top end and schenn maybe OEL average to slightly below.. everyone else is almost well below if not bottom of the barrel. ideally you want 1-2 top end 2-3 mid and 1-2 low talent on ur defence. the team spent way too much money on middle talent on forwards.. between boeser pearson mikhayev garland that's 20-21mil right there. JR spent the cap poorly over the summer. if u re-sign boeser then there's no reason to bring in mikhayev he created a massive log jam of forwards.. did he really need to spend almost 12mil on 2 forwards? to play in a top 9 role? when you already have kuzmenko garland podkolzin hoglander either boeser or mikhayev.. what was the reasoning to bring in 5 forwards for 4 top 6 spots. did he really think we can roll with 3 lines and just outscore every other team to mask the teams issue? i'd be happier if he didn't either re-sign boeser or mikhayev and sit around with 5-6mil of cap space and see if we coulda proach a cap casualty player from somewhere.. the management spent too much effort and cap on unnecessary places this off season added to the issue on where the team is now. 

Actually, we are middle of the pack for overall team talent.  I’d say around 10-15.  But our most important player, Demko, hasn’t been very good.  IN fact he’s been quite bad.  If he’s his regular self we are likely 8-6-2 or something like that.  

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18 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

that is not true of every team.. we have far more below average talents than a lot of teams. if we have average talent on defence we'd be laughing. outside of hughes the top end and schenn maybe OEL average to slightly below.. everyone else is almost well below if not bottom of the barrel. ideally you want 1-2 top end 2-3 mid and 1-2 low talent on ur defence. the team spent way too much money on middle talent on forwards.. between boeser pearson mikhayev garland that's 20-21mil right there. JR spent the cap poorly over the summer. if u re-sign boeser then there's no reason to bring in mikhayev he created a massive log jam of forwards.. did he really need to spend almost 12mil on 2 forwards? to play in a top 9 role? when you already have kuzmenko garland podkolzin hoglander either boeser or mikhayev.. what was the reasoning to bring in 5 forwards for 4 top 6 spots. did he really think we can roll with 3 lines and just outscore every other team to mask the teams issue? i'd be happier if he didn't either re-sign boeser or mikhayev and sit around with 5-6mil of cap space and see if we coulda proach a cap casualty player from somewhere.. the management spent too much effort and cap on unnecessary places this off season added to the issue on where the team is now. 

As I stated above in a different post:

 

"We have 2 Centremen in the top 7 scoring (amongst centremen)...one of them challenging McDavid for the Richard. (Average would be 2 in the top 64)

We have 4 Wingers in the top 100 scoring (amongst wingers) (Average would be 4 in the top 128)

We have 3 Dmen in the top 50 scoring (amongst Dmen)" (average would be 3 in the top 96)

 

Our problem is too many Dmen in the "wandering" category and not enough in the "defend first mentality" category...too many similar types, not enough to offset each other's defensive deficiencies.

 

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17 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Actually, we are middle of the pack for overall team talent.  I’d say around 10-15.  But our most important player, Demko, hasn’t been very good.  IN fact he’s been quite bad.  If he’s his regular self we are likely 8-6-2 or something like that.  

Like I said we can put in brodeur in net and he will look exactly like that. Just as bad the amount of chances we bleed odd man rushes his play from last year is not sustainable. Instead of high danger chances there should be a new category for the Canucks insane high danger chances. It’s not coincident both our goalie are almost over 4gaa and below .900 sv% same with halak last year and holtby the year before and they seem to be fine with their new team. Overall team talent is skewed by we have too many forwards with good ok talents and nothing on defence 

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2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Like I said we can put in brodeur in net and he will look exactly like that. Just as bad the amount of chances we bleed odd man rushes his play from last year is not sustainable. Instead of high danger chances there should be a new category for the Canucks insane high danger chances. It’s not coincident both our goalie are almost over 4gaa and below .900 sv% same with halak last year and holtby the year before and they seem to be fine with their new team. Overall team talent is skewed by we have too many forwards with good ok talents and nothing on defence 

I don’t disagree.  I just think if Demko plays like he we all expect him to, we win more than we lose.  

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4 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

He’s also coming off a surgery so who knows if it’s affecting him mentally or not. Did he ever even disclose what the surgery was. 

Apparently it was a minor procedure.  It shouldn’t be causing the chaos we’re seeing. 

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1 hour ago, shiznak said:

I think if we’re going to fully tear it down and do a complete rebuild. Pettersson should be our top candidate to be moved. His value is at its highest right now rather than two years from now, due to his RFA status. Teams will be hesitant to give up a massive haul for him, knowing he could easily take his QO and walk to UFA the next summer. I mean, look at what Ottawa gave up for DeBrincat. 
 

Right now, he could easily fetch us two young roster players and a pick. In two years, he likely just fetch us picks and prospects. Which wouldn’t help us in any way, nearing the completion of our rebuild. 

I don't know, I think he'd be just as valuable then as now. Maybe even more if he keeps improving. I'd rather try to build and keep him and worry about that then personally.

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2 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Remember when some people and management said we needed to outbid and overpay for underperforming players who would teach our core to be better?

Well now our core is getting prime and we are still at the bottom and capped out:(, This is where you are to bring in younger cheaper prospects to play with your core and now we have no prospects to insert in our lineup, The team was not well constructed to ever compete out of the bottom and for the future the last 8+ years

Bold moves will be needed along with more poor seasons most likely

No gain comes with no pain and we have had more pain longer than most teams and now are at a crossroads at which road to take

To be fair that game plan worked pretty well up to the bubble playoffs and then Covid forced changes (along with some bad decisions/management). We lost a lot of quality vets (overpriced or not), that played the right way (Edler, Tanev, Sutter, Beagle) from that point on, which IMO is at least as responsible for the state of the current franchise as any other mismanagement. 

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1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

that is not true of every team.. we have far more below average talents than a lot of teams. if we have average talent on defence we'd be laughing. outside of hughes the top end and schenn maybe OEL average to slightly below.. everyone else is almost well below if not bottom of the barrel. ideally you want 1-2 top end 2-3 mid and 1-2 low talent on ur defence. the team spent way too much money on middle talent on forwards.. between boeser pearson mikhayev garland that's 20-21mil right there. JR spent the cap poorly over the summer. if u re-sign boeser then there's no reason to bring in mikhayev he created a massive log jam of forwards.. did he really need to spend almost 12mil on 2 forwards? to play in a top 9 role? when you already have kuzmenko garland podkolzin hoglander either boeser or mikhayev.. what was the reasoning to bring in 5 forwards for 4 top 6 spots. did he really think we can roll with 3 lines and just outscore every other team to mask the teams issue? i'd be happier if he didn't either re-sign boeser or mikhayev and sit around with 5-6mil of cap space and see if we coulda proach a cap casualty player from somewhere.. the management spent too much effort and cap on unnecessary places this off season added to the issue on where the team is now. 

I'd rather we'd moved Miller for assets and cap space, and still added Mik personally. This roster needs more guys who can skate and play in all three zones, not less.

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16 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I'd rather we'd moved Miller for assets and cap space, and still added Mik personally. This roster needs more guys who can skate and play in all three zones, not less.

Adding mik is fine but that have to be accompanied by moving one or boeser garland or miller. We are not at the point where we can casually add a top 6 forward when we have surplus already while leaving the defence as is. But too late for that now. I can’t imagine any retool and be competitive if bo is moved hence we need a full on rebuild imo

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1 hour ago, qwijibo said:

Apparently it was a minor procedure.  It shouldn’t be causing the chaos we’re seeing. 

Maybe but like boeser he had a minor injury to start the season with his hand and technically shouldn’t affect his shot but it was his hand and it affected his grip and it burst open so it could affect him in ways we wouldn’t imagine 

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