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[RUMOUR] Vancouver and Columbus in trade talks


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42 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

 

Socrates was merely showing the danger behind those who lack the skills of, or resist entirely, intellectual inquiry. For that, he was accused of corrupting the youth with his method of discovery, as those in power knew where it would lead society: citizens with more knowledge and the ability to question = those in power having less power. With this in mind, of course he decided to drink hemlock and be martyr for his fellow Grecians, for if he took his other option to leave Athens and stop philosophizing, what would society look like if it continued to stifle inquiry? (Hint: look at current events.) 


When you're not married to your ideas and opinions and your ultimate goal is knowledge discovery, then of course you are impervious to scrutiny, as you are not the subject up for debate and discussion but rather the ideas are.

 

Since we're quoting others: "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?” - John Maynard Keynes

 

To bring this back to hockey, there are many who claim absolutes quite often here on CDC; and then those absolutes get challenged; and then emotions erupt; and then chaos ensues between fans. Imagine if we were able to discuss topics without puffing our ego chests whenever someone challenges our hard stances...

Socrates will always be a mystery Unsolved. there are multiple scenarios's that all could be true. I do believe socrates was being ironic.

 

for me, I will trust someone more that claims they are an expert and openly challenges people to prove them wrong.

 

compare eminem vs socrates in the way they challenge experts

Eminem's kick off freestyle where he claimed he was the best and how he welcomed challengers but warns if they do expect to be destroyed. I trust this man's intention's

or socrates who did not understand right from wrong, claiming innocence but would openly attack all experts. I do not trust this man's intentions.

 

as for your last sentence. I will for a brief moment imagine a world where challenging idea's are welcomed, for the process of achieving this ideality is frightening.

 

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23 hours ago, Alflives said:

Can you say our owner is directing what management is allowed to do?  I knew you could.  Gillis followed our owner’s direction to sacrifice the future in hopes to win now, and was successful.  Those were great years for us.  Then, when our most successful ?GM in team history (not arguable; his teams were our most successful) tells the owner we need to rebuild, our owner fires him.  Clearly our owner only want management that will follow his directive to “win now”.  And “no steps back”.

only an idiot fires the best manager he’s ever had becaus3 that manager has the character to state what “needs to be done”.

I'm not sure if I can say for certain that ownership is directing what Rutherford and Allvin are doing. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reality and the case. Because perception is often reality right? What's been the perception? That we have a meddling owner, but that hasn't been absolutely confirmed

 

I think the narrative that ownership and others from out of town says that we cannot stomach a rebuild, that this city and this fanbase cannot stomach a rebuild, is utter nonsense and bull$shit. We've had to endure inept management for 8 years under Benning, and that's probably worse than an actual proper rebuild. So I'm not sure where that narrative has come from, but it's got to be shed and dismantled. It's not fair. 

 

I understand ownership's desire to "win now" - revenue comes from winning now, and having a winning franchise. But meddling in the affairs of hockey operations isn't the way to go. Sacrificing the future for the present, isn't the way to go, and that's essentially what ownership (perception, remember) seems to want to continue to do. They've shown how idiotic they have been with their lack of patience. Patience is a virtue, it also lends to making some of the wisest decisions one can make, and the Aquilini family, for all kinds of reasons, have not made wise decisions (even in the smaller areas of the organization) and that over time has bled out and we are where we are now, as a result of foolish, impatient decisions. 

 

When you have a boss/owner that isn't wise, the rest of the organization follows suit. Just look at the Canucks. 

 

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4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

At least Not something we’ve done very will since Bieksa, Kesler, Burrows, Hansen, Edler, Raymond, Rypien RIP, Schneider all came up through the farm system. 

Those were great years. I'm not sure if the system within the organization developed those players, because we haven't been able to produce much since that time. Who's come through the AHL pipleline since? 

 

I looked up the Canucks draft history, and it looks really depressing. Going as far back as 2014, we haven't had any that has come through the AHL pipeline that the organization has developed into NHL players. 

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

Am I wrong? 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Apparently columbus doesn't "want" Miller

Yeah, figures. I mean, Miller while poor defensively, is still on pace for 40 goals. How many does he get if he plays besides Johnny Hockey?

 

Miller has value (as of now and today) - whether he has value once his 7 year deal kicks in, well, that's a gamble, and it's not one I see any GM in the league wants to take. Gotta feel for Rutherford and Allvin. Are they second guessing their choices? Because it's not looking great on the ice this season, and they've had a full off-season to do work. 

 

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12 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Yeah, figures. I mean, Miller while poor defensively, is still on pace for 40 goals. How many does he get if he plays besides Johnny Hockey?

 

Miller has value (as of now and today) - whether he has value once his 7 year deal kicks in, well, that's a gamble, and it's not one I see any GM in the league wants to take. Gotta feel for Rutherford and Allvin. Are they second guessing their choices? Because it's not looking great on the ice this season, and they've had a full off-season to do work. 

 

It's their fan base that says no.

 

Apparently Sillinger, Johnson, Jiricek, 2023 1st are totally off limits for them

 

But maybe MAYBE for Horvat they'd consider trading Roslovic Peeke and a second, if he's extended trade peeke for Cuelemen's

 

They're as bad as we are

 

16 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Those were great years. I'm not sure if the system within the organization developed those players, because we haven't been able to produce much since that time. Who's come through the AHL pipleline since? 

 

I looked up the Canucks draft history, and it looks really depressing. Going as far back as 2014, we haven't had any that has come through the AHL pipeline that the organization has developed into NHL players. 

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

Am I wrong? 

 

 

Ha...hahahaha....HAHAhahahahahaha

 

Oh wait, you think it's just that bad?  one sec

 

Anthony echoes exactly what I've said for years.  The 2004 through 2006 manitoba moose were the last actual developed players we had true success with.  Since then Vancouver has drafted and developed the following players that have played more than 100 games

 

2008:  Hodgson

2009:  Schroeder + Connauton

2012:  Hutton + Gaunce

2014:  Virtanen, McCann, Demko, Forsling

2017:  Pettersson

2018:  Hughes

2019:  Hoglander.

 

Now, if we actually look at who played the 200 game metric stated to be a successful draft pick it is actually even worse as that is only 11 players total.  Of all those players the best are Pettersson and Hughes.  Really hammers home how absolutely sad our development program has been.  Even the Oilers have 21 players drafted and developed to play 200+ games in that time span.  Sabres have 20.  Hell even the Coyotes have had 15 players drafted and developed to be 200 game players.

 

While that metric is entirely questionable it is also the mark of a successful nhl player to have played 200 games or more and of that, we are actually one of the worst in the league over the last 2 decades.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Those were great years. I'm not sure if the system within the organization developed those players, because we haven't been able to produce much since that time. Who's come through the AHL pipleline since? 

 

I looked up the Canucks draft history, and it looks really depressing. Going as far back as 2014, we haven't had any that has come through the AHL pipeline that the organization has developed into NHL players. 

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

Am I wrong? 

 

 

You’re not wrong, but look at 2005-2013. How many guys came up through the pipeline to take over for the twins? Pretty much 0. Which means we had to start from scratch.. which means we are way behind on development. Horvat is not a replacement for the twins, hes a supporting player behind them, providing 2C scoring.
 

Now look at how many of those draft picks between 2014-2020 have played a fair share NHL games, quite a few. We have drafted and iced more NHLers than we have had to spend drafting and developing…fortunately…We have been lucky enough to get impact players. We’ve also lost Gadjovich to waivers, Lind to the expansion draft, we gave up on OJ. Both of those last 2 are developing in the AHL still. We signed MacEwan and he got claimed on waivers…. MacEwan has looked pretty decent for Philly this year, Gadj is meh, but Lind and OJ are doing well in the AHL. Sadly so is Gaudette

 

The reason we havent seen much is

1) we filled the NHL roster first

2) we lost some prospects along the way


We now have the opportunity to draft and develop players because we have such a young core that is going to hold down spots for years. We can slowly move guys out and bring guys up

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33 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Ha...hahahaha....HAHAhahahahahaha

 

Oh wait, you think it's just that bad?  one sec

 

 

59 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

I looked up the Canucks draft history, and it looks really depressing. Going as far back as 2014, we haven't had any that has come through the AHL pipeline that the organization has developed into NHL players. 

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

Am I wrong? 

 

 

You guys think thats bad…. Now go look at JR and PA’s drafting record in PIT… YIKES. 
 

JR was gm from 2014-2021

PA was Euro scout from 2012-2017 and then amateur scout from 2017-20

 

just a little heads up… Andrei Vasilevskiy the fvcking goalie… has more points than all of PITs drafting combined from 2016-present. 
 

LOL… fml

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3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

 

You guys think thats bad…. Now go look at JR and PA’s drafting record in PIT… YIKES. 
 

JR was gm from 2014-2021

PA was Euro scout from 2012-2017 and then amateur scout from 2017-20

 

just a little heads up… Andrei Vasilevskiy the fvcking goalie… has more points than all of PITs drafting combined from 2016-present. 
 

LOL… fml

Joe Biden GIF by Election 2020

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10 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

 

You guys think thats bad…. Now go look at JR and PA’s drafting record in PIT… YIKES. 
 

JR was gm from 2014-2021

PA was Euro scout from 2012-2017 and then amateur scout from 2017-20

 

just a little heads up… Andrei Vasilevskiy the fvcking goalie… has more points than all of PITs drafting combined from 2016-present. 
 

LOL… fml

The sad thing is, I actually knew he was within like 3 or 4 points of that.  But "cup wins" right

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2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Now go look at JR and PA’s drafting record in PIT… YIKES. 

Yeah, this is what I'm afraid of. If we suck, and we have to draft our way, based off of JR and Allvin, we're not going to be making the right selections. 

 

Which is why I think they're afraid of a rebuild. No confidence in their selections and their amateur drafting. 

 

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16 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I think it might be easier to ask who were our best GM's.................Pat Quinn and Brian Burke

 

All the rest pale by comparison

 

But in saying that, it was only Burke that set up a farm team that actually produced

 

IMO, a GM's main and primary goal is to find talent.............aka draft, trade, and UFA

 

But the only one he has the most control over is his drafting, and development (aka coaching and system)

 

Benning failed, and Gillis failed, etc, etc, etc.................and on and on and on!

Burke could not find a goalie… so he can’t be equal to Quinn. 
 

 

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5 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

You’re not wrong, but look at 2005-2013. How many guys came up through the pipeline to take over for the twins? Pretty much 0. Which means we had to start from scratch.. which means we are way behind on development. Horvat is not a replacement for the twins, hes a supporting player behind them, providing 2C scoring.
 

Now look at how many of those draft picks between 2014-2020 have played a fair share NHL games, quite a few. We have drafted and iced more NHLers than we have had to spend drafting and developing…fortunately…We have been lucky enough to get impact players. We’ve also lost Gadjovich to waivers, Lind to the expansion draft, we gave up on OJ. Both of those last 2 are developing in the AHL still. We signed MacEwan and he got claimed on waivers…. MacEwan has looked pretty decent for Philly this year, Gadj is meh, but Lind and OJ are doing well in the AHL. Sadly so is Gaudette

 

The reason we havent seen much is

1) we filled the NHL roster first

2) we lost some prospects along the way


We now have the opportunity to draft and develop players because we have such a young core that is going to hold down spots for years. We can slowly move guys out and bring guys up

Dude, OJ busted out of this club.

 

so many chances and the Covid did a number on him. 
 

Bad pick.  The shear number of nhl D men in the first round of that draft making impacts, and OJ is in the AHL.

 

JB made great picks… so many it’s eye popping.  
 

But OJ, Gaudette etc… aren’t the guys you think got away.  
 

They didn’t make it. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

As important as draft position is, imo development is more important. How many top 5 picks remain the best 5 players of their draft in order too. You’ll see a lot of players drop and a lot of players rise and that is largely due to development. You can take a top 5 pick and ruin them, or you can take a mid to late first or even beyond and develop them into a better player than the guy drafted way ahead of them and it happens all the time. Draft position is just best chances of an NHLer, its what you do after drafting that will have a greater impact imo. Yes draft position does matter, but to a certain extent. 
in the ‘99 draft for example, Vrbata and Zetterberg were selected 210 and 212th. They are the 3rd and 4th highest producing players behind Daniel and Henrik. What happened to the rest of the first round picks? Colorado and Detroit were power houses back then and they had the time to slowly develop long shot draft picks into quality NHLers. This happens every single year and down the road you see the teams who had a strong farm system produce quality NHLers that have more of an impact at the NHL level than a fair share of high end draft picks on basement teams with zero support/foundation for guys to learn. Vrbata and Zetterberg spent 2-3 years developing before getting an NHL gig. Its going on right now with a lot of top teams that keep “finding these gems” that really are drafting a player with a skill set and they are letting them marinate in the minors for a few years and all of the sudden everyone is like “omg how did we miss that?!”

 

Jason Robertson right now is another example, drafted in 2017, spent 3 seasons in the Q and a bit in the AHL and became a full time NHLer in 2020-21….. patience is a virtue and development is the key. 
 

I could go on and on and on about late picks that spent a few years developing and are impact players today. This is what fans do not understand about just how far Gillis and Nonis’s drafting failures from 2005-2013 set us back. It’s unfortunate what happened with Bourdon (RIP) and you cant blame anyone for that, but it is a draft that is part of the set back. We’re lucky that Horvat was able to put so much effort into his skating to become a solid NHLer. Otherwise he coulda been another failure to go along with Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Hodgson, Jensen, Schroeder and White.

 

Late round picks that walk onto an NHL team and light the league up are clearly missed picks. But guys who are drafted late and spend time in the minors developing are not missed picks, they are picks that were properly developed. 
 

Kucherov was drafted late in the 2nd round, he wasnt lighting it on fire, bounced between KHL and Russian jr league, came over to NA, spent some time in the AHL and NHL, wasnt anything spectacular in the NHL to start, but slowly grew into an elite players. Gaudreau was in the same draft and spent 3 seasons in college before becoming an NHLer…. Like these guys were not missed by the rest of the league, it was merely development. 

A few things to mention here...

 

in 99 Zetterberg & vrabata... yep... both scouting has improved immensely since though. Those players drafted so low suggests, that nobody, incl the teams that drafted them, expected this sort of output. 
Its a punt, when you get down in the lower rounds. Even Red Wings passed on Zetterberg 3 times before drafting him. 
(Fun fact Red Wings first pick was in round 4). 

 

Draft position does matter...  you are far more likely to find a sure fire thing in the top 3 than 6-15...


But absolutely agree development matters. JV was thrown in at the derp end far to early, and would likely have benifited from being able to play in the AHL under less limelight first...

OJ was plagued by injuries, so you can't legislate for that neither. 
 

Jensen has done remarkly well in Russia (yes I know its not the NHL), and maybe better development would have done him good. 
Hodgson was a problem between his dad and injury/illness that wasn't found by our doctors. 
Gaunce could probably be better developed

Schroeder, Shinkaruk could maybe have been better developed, but their size amongst others were against them

White... oh dear....

the common denominator here was they were all drafted late in the first round. 
 

You have to be lucky to hit on players once you are past the top 3-4 except for some years that has produced lots of NHL players. 
 

Finding gold in the later rounds is possible, but you need to be lucky as well. There's a reason they don't get picked in the 1st round. 
 

Lots of players doesn't make it. Even at teams that are comsidered good at developing players. 
 

Before zetterberg got drafted, Red wing picked 3 other players before him. 
 

They drafted Tolsa (didn't make it)

Maximenko (don't think he made it neither)

McDonell ( 3NHL games prior to drafting Zetterberg)

 

It just goes to show, that you have to be extremely lucky and goid development isn't the only thing. 

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50 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Love that this thread is turned into who’s the best and worst GM.

 

can’t help but think this would be worth a reboot after a trade is made…. 
 

 

Yeah, and pages and pages of who's best without consideration of when the salary cap was introduced (2004-05).

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