[Proposal] Kuzmenko to Washington

[86Viking]

Canucks trade:

 

 Andrei Kuzmenko

 

for

 

1 or 2 of Iorio/McMichael/Lapierre.

 

We could maybe add Schenn to the deal and get an additional pick back too? Doubt adding Schenn gets us Iorio and 1 of the 2 young C mentioned above  but who knows!? Schenn should be an upgrade on TVR or maybe Jensen? 

 

This deal of course occurs after Canucks have offered Kuzmenko a new contract but were unable to come to terms with his agent and or them wanting to play out the season and at least test FA, they could still very well sign in Vancouver but want to see what else would be available to him.

 

Kuzmenko would fit in well with the other Russian players Washington already has, thoughts??  

[Tyndall2]

Why do we want to get rid of our players who are producing and are fun to watch?  There are at least 6 others players I would trade in order to reduce payroll.

Thoughts?

[Phil_314]

2 hours ago, Tyndall2 said:

Why do we want to get rid of our players who are producing and are fun to watch?  There are at least 6 others players I would trade in order to reduce payroll.

Thoughts?

I think there's benefit to trading him, since we probably wouldn't be able to afford him in his next contract without ensuring Horvat's out the door (given our cap situation, I'd rather sell high on Kuzmenko and let guys like Boeser/ Garland play themselves back into being positive value guys so we could flip them in turn, instead of selling low on them and having to attach picks just to get rid of them, or buy them out and incur more dead cap). 

That being said, I don't think OP's return is nearly enough -- as a point per game guy on an ELC, I would think that the contenders who are tight on cap but who want to add a hired gun for a playoff run would seriously consider moving their late 1st, since he's shown he's top-line caliber.  McMichael hasn't shown so far that he can stick in the league (nor has the other two guys, but they're a year younger so I'd cut them some slack) so I'd rather have a sure thing for one of our top tradeable assets.

[Ted Lasso]

If we can’t resign him, Washington seems like a good partner given the Russian connection, and their commitment to seeing OV catch Gretzky’s record.

 

The return seems reasonable…Lapierre and Iorio address our two biggest positional needs.

[VegasCanuck]

1 minute ago, Kenny Powers said:

If we can’t resign him, Washington seems like a good partner given the Russian connection, and their commitment to seeing OV catch Gretzky’s record.

 

The return seems reasonable…Lapierre and Iorio address our two biggest positional needs.

Let's exhaust our attempts to sign him first.

 

My preference would be to trade Miller, sign Horvat 8 x 8.5 and sign Kuzmenko to 3 years at 5.5 - 6 million. He's had good production, but a lot of that has been on the powerplay and with direct feeds to the crease from Pettersson. I think he'd still be putting up solid points without Pettersson, but I think he'd be about 20-25% lower on point totals.

[Ted Lasso]

4 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

Let's exhaust our attempts to sign him first.

 

My preference would be to trade Miller, sign Horvat 8 x 8.5 and sign Kuzmenko to 3 years at 5.5 - 6 million. He's had good production, but a lot of that has been on the powerplay and with direct feeds to the crease from Pettersson. I think he'd still be putting up solid points without Pettersson, but I think he'd be about 20-25% lower on point totals.

100% couldn’t agree more.

[mll]

With the cap possibly only rising by 1M next season Kuzmenko's potential performance bonus could impact trade interest.  He has a 950K cap hit but he is bonus eligible with a 850K target.  If the team that trades for him doesn't have the banked cap space to pay his bonus it gets carried over into the following season.  For teams in LTIR like Washington it's an automatic carry over into the following season as they can't bank cap space.

 

Washington is cap strapped.  They had to put Carlson on LTIR so they could activate Backstrom.  Can't really see them adding an ELC player who could hit several of his targets when they are in LTIR.  

[Strawbone]

36 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

100% couldn’t agree more.

I agree with trading Miller as well, but has a player ever been signed to a long-term, big-dollar contract extension with a NMC, and then traded away because the NMC doesn't kick in until the next season? Seems like a pretty underhanded thing to do that would make the Canucks less appealing to sign for.

[canucklehead44]

Just now, Strawbone said:

I agree with trading Miller as well, but has a player ever been signed to a long-term, big-dollar contract extension with a NMC, and then traded away because the NMC doesn't kick in until the next season? Seems like a pretty underhanded thing to do that would make the Canucks less appealing to sign for.

I'd be happy moving Miller even if it was for a cheaper salary straight across like Fabbri or Ryan Strome but I think we would get a pick back as well. 
 

[Coconuts]

4 hours ago, Tyndall2 said:

Why do we want to get rid of our players who are producing and are fun to watch?  There are at least 6 others players I would trade in order to reduce payroll.

Thoughts?

Because he's also one of our best trade chips and we're a team that clearly isn't competitive as structured. We need to acquire picks, prospects, and young NHL players. His cap hit vs production makes him appealing to any team that fancies themselves as having a legit shot at the cup and he'd likely bring back a good haul. 

 

His agent was on back in early December speaking as to how they weren't looking at talking extension til the end of the season, or closer to it. When is closer to it? Hard to say. But we're going to have to make decisions prior to then. 

 

There's also the matter of cap space, as of right now we don't have the cap space to extend him and he's not going to come cheap. It's also unlikely we get any sort of discount, why would we? He hasn't even been here a year, we didn't draft him. He'll be 27 in February and this next contract will likely be his best opportunity to cash in. 

 

Also, doesn't matter if there are other players you'd sooner move if there aren't takers for them. There aren't very many teams with a ton of open space, moving contracts like Boeser, Garland, and Miller will almost certainly see cap of some sort coming back. Likely Myers too, possibly Pearson. A Horvat trade would free up cap but I question whether that cap space would be best spent on Kuzmenko when our defense could clearly use some help. There aren't many quick fixes for freeing up cap space in season unless we want to pay to dump players, which we shouldn't be given where we're at as a franchise. 

 

I believe Pettersson will be just fine without him, I'd rather sell him and build for the future which is clearly when we're probably more likely to actually be competitive. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Coconuts

[J.I.A.H.N]

50 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

Let's exhaust our attempts to sign him first.

 

My preference would be to trade Miller, sign Horvat 8 x 8.5 and sign Kuzmenko to 3 years at 5.5 - 6 million. He's had good production, but a lot of that has been on the powerplay and with direct feeds to the crease from Pettersson. I think he'd still be putting up solid points without Pettersson, but I think he'd be about 20-25% lower on point totals.

 

31 minutes ago, mll said:

With the cap possibly only rising by 1M next season Kuzmenko's potential performance bonus could impact trade interest.  He has a 950K cap hit but he is bonus eligible with a 850K target.  If the team that trades for him doesn't have the banked cap space to pay his bonus it gets carried over into the following season.  For teams in LTIR like Washington it's an automatic carry over into the following season as they can't bank cap space.

 

Washington is cap strapped.  They had to put Carlson on LTIR so they could activate Backstrom.  Can't really see them adding an ELC player who could hit several of his targets when they are in LTIR.  

Well, @VegasCanuck in a perfect world, I am totally in agreement with you. If I am evaluating the 3 players most talked about, I would like to keep them in this order, Horvat, Kuzmenko, then Miller.................so in the big picture, if we can move Miller, instead, we win, and can sign Horvat and Kuzmenko, long term. That does not solve the RHD problem, but moving Horvat and Kuzmenko creates one too. I am just not sure, we can do that.........which puts Horvat and Kuzmenko back in the discussion.

 

As for If we moved Kuzmenko, @mll brings up a solid point, but retaining 50% would cost us nothing, and soften the blow, and "IF" Washington was to re-sign him long term, the bonus is then dropped to $425,000, which in the big picture, isn't too hard to handle. The question I have is does Washington clear room for Kuzmenko long term? I know I would, but do they? Maybe he is just a rental to them, also.

[86Viking]

4 hours ago, Tyndall2 said:

Why do we want to get rid of our players who are producing and are fun to watch?  There are at least 6 others players I would trade in order to reduce payroll.

Thoughts?

If we can't come to a contract agreement before the TDL we should be moving out players if we like them or not. Not doing so would put us back in the Benning era when we lost Toffoli, Tanev, Markstrom for example. Maybe Kuzmenko wants to see what is out there offer wise come July 1st but would still be willing to sign back with Vancouver if we gave him a competitive offer. There is a risk going to a new team, Kuz is in a great spot playing with Pettersson so he may decide he wants to stay here in the end but that would be well after the TDL this year.

 

My 2 cents about it anyway

[86Viking]

2 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

I think there's benefit to trading him, since we probably wouldn't be able to afford him in his next contract without ensuring Horvat's out the door (given our cap situation, I'd rather sell high on Kuzmenko and let guys like Boeser/ Garland play themselves back into being positive value guys so we could flip them in turn, instead of selling low on them and having to attach picks just to get rid of them, or buy them out and incur more dead cap). 

That being said, I don't think OP's return is nearly enough -- as a point per game guy on an ELC, I would think that the contenders who are tight on cap but who want to add a hired gun for a playoff run would seriously consider moving their late 1st, since he's shown he's top-line caliber.  McMichael hasn't shown so far that he can stick in the league (nor has the other two guys, but they're a year younger so I'd cut them some slack) so I'd rather have a sure thing for one of our top tradeable assets.

You don't think what I asked for as a return is enough? We are talking about a player with less than 40 career NHL games. If he could net us a recent 1st round pick C or high 2nd round pick RHD...BOTH areas our team lacks what is wrong with that as a return??

 

We can always ask for a pick as well but what is realistic and a fantasy return are 2 different things. Remember those big asks for JT Miller last TDL and what did we do, we kept and signed him and now a lot of CDC is very unhappy about it due to his attitude. Let's not forget his offensive output since arriving in Vancouver has been the Canucks TOP performer over that time...

[VegasCanuck]

1 hour ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

 

Well, @VegasCanuck in a perfect world, I am totally in agreement with you. If I am evaluating the 3 players most talked about, I would like to keep them in this order, Horvat, Kuzmenko, then Miller.................so in the big picture, if we can move Miller, instead, we win, and can sign Horvat and Kuzmenko, long term. That does not solve the RHD problem, but moving Horvat and Kuzmenko creates one too. I am just not sure, we can do that.........which puts Horvat and Kuzmenko back in the discussion.

 

As for If we moved Kuzmenko, @mll brings up a solid point, but retaining 50% would cost us nothing, and soften the blow, and "IF" Washington was to re-sign him long term, the bonus is then dropped to $425,000, which in the big picture, isn't too hard to handle. The question I have is does Washington clear room for Kuzmenko long term? I know I would, but do they? Maybe he is just a rental to them, also.

I'm hoping that moving Miller would help to resolve our RD problem, but the other problem with just trading Kuzmenko is, he chose to sign here over all other options. I think we need to respect that and exhaust every option to keep him to ensure that future free agents take us seriously. I get that we can't be held hostage by that, but there's a ripple effect if we don't "respect" his wishes and take his needs into account with anything we do.

 

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

3 hours ago, VegasCanuck said:

Let's exhaust our attempts to sign him first.

 

My preference would be to trade Miller, sign Horvat 8 x 8.5 and sign Kuzmenko to 3 years at 5.5 - 6 million. He's had good production, but a lot of that has been on the powerplay and with direct feeds to the crease from Pettersson. I think he'd still be putting up solid points without Pettersson, but I think he'd be about 20-25% lower on point totals.

This would be ideal.

 

What do you suppose we could get for miller realistically at this point? 

I'd say his value drastically went down since the summer.

 

Would you consider getting rid of him even if it means receiving somewhat of a disappointing return, as long as Bo re-signs and Kuz comes back?

[Coconuts]

21 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

I'm hoping that moving Miller would help to resolve our RD problem, but the other problem with just trading Kuzmenko is, he chose to sign here over all other options. I think we need to respect that and exhaust every option to keep him to ensure that future free agents take us seriously. I get that we can't be held hostage by that, but there's a ripple effect if we don't "respect" his wishes and take his needs into account with anything we do.

 

I don't buy this. Not with a guy who signed a one year deal. This isn't us signing a guy to a four year deal and flipping him to Detroit or Arizona, it's a team that's likely not going to make the playoffs selling leading up to the deadline. Free agents and agents aren't going to hold our flipping Kuzmenko against us, we're a team that will almost certainly miss the playoffs and we absolutely should be sellers. 

 

Nobody's going to hold Anaheim selling Klingberg at 50% closer to the deadline either if they can find a taker, they just signed him to a one year 7M deal. 

 

He signed here because thought it'd be a good opportunity and he'd heard good things, he's played prime minutes alongside our top talent. We've absolutely done right by Kuzmenko, he's gotten every opportunity to produce here. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

9 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I don't buy this. Not with a guy who signed a one year deal. This isn't us signing a guy to a four year deal and flipping him to Detroit or Arizona, it's a team that's likely not going to make the playoffs selling leading up to the deadline. Free agents and agents aren't going to hold our flipping Kuzmenko against us, we're a team that will almost certainly miss the playoffs and we absolutely should be sellers. 

 

Nobody's going to hold Anaheim selling Klingberg at 50% closer to the deadline either if they can find a taker, they just signed him to a one year 7M deal. 

 

He signed here because thought it'd be a good opportunity and he'd heard good things, he's played prime minutes alongside our top talent. We've absolutely done right by Kuzmenko, he's gotten every opportunity to produce here. 

I am pretty sure he had to sign a 1 year ELC, if I heard rightly????

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by J.I.A.H.N

[Coconuts]

7 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I am pretty sure he had to sign a 1 year ELC, if I heard rightly????

 

 

Yup, that's what he's signed to. But he could have signed it anywhere, and it's still a one year deal. I have a hard time seeing agents or players getting their knickers in a twist over someone on a one year deal being traded by a team that should be sellers. 

 

Kuzmenko wanted to sign somewhere where he'd get an opportunity and he's gotten one here, he'll get paid, we've done our part by putting him in a position to succeed. There should be no hard feelings from his camp. .

[J.I.A.H.N]

Just a thought on Kuzmenko

 

IMO, Kuzmenko "IS" what you "HOPE" a 1st round pick from 8 to 32 turns out to be..........you "HOPE"! The odds range on that from 75% to 50%, and that is "IF" you wait for 2 to 3 years to find out. Would you not agree with me @HighOnHockey ? Most statistically do not turn into that.

 

My first choice is to re-sign him...........and anything under 6 Million X 5 years would be found treasure.

 

"IF" we can not sign him, then IMO his value is still a Prospect and a 20 to 32 OA pick..........................But again, I would rather we sign him!

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by J.I.A.H.N

[VegasCanuck]

37 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

This would be ideal.

 

What do you suppose we could get for miller realistically at this point? 

I'd say his value drastically went down since the summer.

 

Would you consider getting rid of him even if it means receiving somewhat of a disappointing return, as long as Bo re-signs and Kuz comes back?

I really don't believe that Miller's value is down as much as people think. The media in Vancouver REALLY thrives on controversy and negativity to sell clicks to their sites and papers. There is No news like BAD news, and they will even invent stuff if necessary and a lot of people on this site latch onto that and help fuel it.

 

What you need to remember is, EVERY SINGLE SPORTS REPORTER IN THIS CITY COULD NOT GET A JOB WITH A MAJOR SPORTS TEAM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO MUCH ABOVE JANITOR! (Caps lock on purpose)

 

These guys are all speculators, some have better connections than others, but regardless of that, they all live, eat and breath by how many readers and clickers they are generating and, as I stated above, there is No News like BAD news to generate traffic and clicks and impressions on advertising. Without clicks, these guys are out of work.

 

Miller's value is maybe down a little from last season, but overall, he is still running almost a point per game while being largely misused by the Canucks. He needs to be deployed as an offensive winger, that's where he's the most effective, and he needs to use his size and strength to drive the play. Players who can create offense and have cost certainty have a value in the league.

 

Things are tight all over the league and whether Miller was making his new 8 million this year or his 5.25, you don't just fit that into 95% of contenders during the season without them making significant moves to fit him into the cap. During summer, they of course have more flexibility based on expiring contracts.

 

My personal feeling is, if we are willing to eat up to 50% of his current contract only, the 5.25 million, his value is 1st and a really strong prospect to a team going all in and needing a flexible power forward who can play either side and fill in at center when needed.

 

Past playoffs, any team acquiring him, if they don't think they could fit him into their cap long term, could move him again before July 1st (at the draft) and recover assets. In fact, he might be more easily moved as he no longer has the leverage of controlling where he goes, up until July 1st.

 

Miller definitely needs to simplify his game and stop making questionable passes on the powerplay, but his ability to create offense and change the outcome of a game is undeniable and every GM trying to win a cup this year knows it!

 

I think the rest is all background noise, and we've all heard Rutherfords frustration with the media when they are pushing him on stuff they really don't actually know anything about.

 

Look at the return we got for Hamonic when the media (and fans on this board) were saying that we'd be lucky to just get someone to take his contract if we were to waive him!

Edited January 9, 2023 by VegasCanuck