OEL has now sunk into the top 10 worst +/- players in the entire National Hockey League out of all 869 players.

[King Heffy]

Just now, Bob.Loblaw said:

The thing about Myers and OEL is that they were bad on the Jets and Coyotes.  It made no sense for Vancouver to acquire them.  They are worse now, partly due to their further decline from age, and partly because of a brutal system they're playing under (as you've mentioned).  But when analytics are suggesting two players have been BAD for multiple years in a row, you have to respect what it means.  I disagree with you and believe they are truly our worst players.

The game is played on the ice, not on a spreadsheet.  I trust my own eyes, not what some unqualified geek who still gets beat up for his lunch money thinks, and I frankly have zero respect for any of the drivel they spew.  People who don't understand the sport should not be entrusted with player evaluation.  OEL and Myers aren't playing up to their contracts, but they are still useful players.

[73 Percent]

13 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

His caphit is still less than many worse blueliners after the retention; Toronto has an AHLer who has never been able to play any defence making 7.5M over a longer period of time.

But he provides something. OEL is useless.

 

 

Defending OEL and calling Reilly an AHLer is some next level homer man.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by 73 Percent

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, lmm said:

Torts was brought in to stir up the Country Club atmosphere 1.0

and he did that

Its funny how many times I read, Jim and Patty have only had one year to undo ol Jimmer's mess

but Torts didn't even get one year ( the Flames game debacle played a role in that decision)

but when he was removed after one year

the CC atmosphere was strengthened with the removal of Torts and the trade of Kesler

the team spent the next 4 years trying to get the Sedins back to a Cup run 

and then another 5 years and now this mess

 

Hiring Torts was probably overkill, but the owners chickened out before the first anniversary and the rest, as they say, is history

I don't know what kind of revisionist cereal you ate, but Torts' tenure on the Canucks has overwhelmingly been viewed as a negative, not a positive. He was brought in because management thought that they could squeak a few years of the Sedins. That ended up being a mistake.

At the same time, we had next to no prospect development because we couldn't draft a damn! We had players like Megna taking up icetime.

[JamesB]

2 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

While we all know how bad our team defense is after JR/PA were incapable of doing anything to fix it this past year and the Canucks now being the 2nd most scored against team in the entire National Hockey league.  It has now reached new lows with OEL sinking to the 31st worst +/- player spot in the league, out of all 835 players with a staggering Minus -14 and we haven't even reached the mid point of the season!  

 

Although he still isn't as bad as our very worst player (Miller)  who is tied as the 21st worst +/- player in the entire National Hockey league (and likely to sink into the top 10 worst players within the next week or so),  it shows how fast OEL has degraded in only one year with the team as he slowly ages thru the beginning of his contract into his mid 30's that expires later near the end of the decade in 2027. 

 

Will OEL's rapid decline put him on the same trajectory as Myers and make him another early buy-out or trade candidate, or will JR/PA just turn a blind eye to his decline like they have with many others and just allow his contract to run out?   

The trade that brought OEL and Garland to the Canucks has to be worst move of Benning's time with the Canucks -- and that is saying something.

 

The Canucks gave up a fairly high first round pick (9th overall), a second round pick, and a 7th round pick.They took back a good player (OEL) on a terrible contract, and a guy about to finish his contract who they promptly resigned at an overpayment (Garland). (Trade and overpaying to re-sign was a favorite Benning move.) That is a lot of big negatives. The only positive they got was to eliminate the final year of 3 poor contracts that Benning had previously signed players to (Beagle, Louie, and Roussel). So-basically a small one-year benefit (for the 2021-22 season) in return for a massive long run cost and they still missed the playoffs after a terrible start.

 

That is about the most desperate of all desperation moves that I have seen and it was obviously a terrible move from the very start. The owner should have been fired for allowing it (If only owners could be fired) and Benning should have been fired on the spot for suggesting it. I still can't believe all the defenders Benning had on CDC.

 

That said, while the OEL contract is very bad, he  is not as bad a player as a lot of people seem to think. In his underlying stats on "Evolving Hockey" he is actually pretty good. His GAR stat is below Hughes but well above every either D on the team. He has played tougher than average minutes (although not as tough as last year) and has had below average luck. I would expect some regression to the mean (i.e. improvement) in his +/- in the second half of the year.  He is well past his prime and that the trade that brought him was terrible, but he is still a legitimate second pairing D. But he needs a better partner. Although Myers has a better +/- his underlying stats are much worse.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

25 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

The game is played on the ice, not on a spreadsheet.  I trust my own eyes, not what some unqualified geek who still gets beat up for his lunch money thinks, and I frankly have zero respect for any of the drivel they spew.  People who don't understand the sport should not be entrusted with player evaluation.  OEL and Myers aren't playing up to their contracts, but they are still useful players.

That type of old school country club mentality is exactly what got Benning and Vancouver into the trouble we have to suffer with today.  The game has gotten faster every single year.  Our human eyes cannot keep up.  I would rather trust the geek who admits the limits of what the spreadsheets say over someone like you, who still oddly sounds like a high school bully.

23 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

But he provides something. OEL is useless.

 

Defending OEL and calling Reilly an AHLer is some next level homer man.

 

Oh he was talking about Morgan Rielly??  That's hilarious.  He is basically the Toronto version of Quinn Hughes and gets paid like one too.

21 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

I don't know what kind of revisionist cereal you ate, but Torts' tenure on the Canucks has overwhelmingly been viewed as a negative, not a positive. He was brought in because management thought that they could squeak a few years of the Sedins. That ended up being a mistake.

At the same time, we had next to no prospect development because we couldn't draft a damn! We had players like Megna taking up icetime.

Ironically, I think Boudreau was the coach the 2014 Canucks needed, and maybe Torts was the one the 2022 team needed.

[BigTramFan]

I wouldn't defend anyone on this team right now, but +/- is not a good stat. And OEL doesn't deserve to be singled out on that.

 

+/- does not factor in total games or minutes played in those games. Nor does it factor in quality of opposition.

 

It does focus more on even strength (which is a good thing imo) but a better stat for how well a player performs is even strength oiGF/60 and oiGA/60. And the difference between how many goals for and against per 60 minutes at ES.

 

This season the Canucks team average ES oiGF/60 = 2.5 and our average ES oiGA/60 = 3.2.

 

Compared to the team average OEL is not too bad oiGF/60 = 2.8 and oiGA/60 = 3.5. Slighty more GF and GA/60 but the difference of -0.7 goals/60 is right at the team average.

 

Who are the worst on this team at ES? (ignoring those that have played less than 10 games), here they are:

 

Player              oiGF/60        oiGA/60         Goal difference/60

Pearson             2.2                 5.2                    -3.0

Dries                  2.4                 4.5                    -2.1

Burroughs          0.9                 3.1                    -2.2

Stillman              2.8                 4.3                    -1.5

Boeser               3.8                 5.2                    -1.4

Studnicka           1.2                 2.7                    -1.5

Joshua               1.7                 3.1                    -1.4

Aman                 1.2                 2.5                     -1.3

 

So interestingly OEL is nowhere near the worst on this team at even strength!

 

Neither is Miller (CDC's current whipping boy), Myers and Hughes (who many say can't defend):

 

Player              oiGF/60        oiGA/60         Goal difference/60

Miller                 2.4                 3.3                    -0.9

Myers                3.6                 3.1                    +0.5

Hughes             3.4                 3.1                    +0.3

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by BigTramFan

[ShawnAntoski]

8 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

While we all know how bad our team defense is after JR/PA were incapable of doing anything to fix it this past year and the Canucks now being the 2nd most scored against team in the entire National Hockey league.  It has now reached new lows with OEL sinking to the 31st worst +/- player spot in the league, out of all 835 players with a staggering Minus -14 and we haven't even reached the mid point of the season!  

 

Although he still isn't as bad as our very worst player (Miller)  who is tied as the 21st worst +/- player in the entire National Hockey league (and likely to sink into the top 10 worst players within the next week or so),  it shows how fast OEL has degraded in only one year with the team as he slowly ages thru the beginning of his contract into his mid 30's that expires later near the end of the decade in 2027. 

 

Will OEL's rapid decline put him on the same trajectory as Myers and make him another early buy-out or trade candidate, or will JR/PA just turn a blind eye to his decline like they have with many others and just allow his contract to run out?   

Read the replies also

Edited January 11, 2023 by ShawnAntoski

[teepain]

play OEL and hughes

thats what hughes wanted since the start of the season

 

lets see what they can do

[ShawnAntoski]

4 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

I wouldn't defend anyone on this team right now, but +/- is not a good stat. And OEL doesn't deserve to be singled out on that.

 

+/- does not factor in total games or minutes played in those games. Nor does it factor in quality of opposition.

 

It does focus more on even strength (which is a good thing imo) but a better stat for how well a player performs is even strength oiGF/60 and oiGA/60. And the difference between how many goals for and against per 60 minutes at ES.

 

This season the Canucks team average ES oiGF/60 = 2.5 and our average ES oiGA/60 = 3.2.

 

Compared to the team average OEL is not too bad oiGF/60 = 2.8 and oiGA/60 = 3.5. Slighty more GF and GA/60 but the difference of -0.7 goals/60 is right at the team average.

 

Who are the worst on this team at ES? (ignoring those that have played less than 10 games), here they are:

 

Player              oiGF/60        oiGA/60         Goal difference/60

Pearson             2.2                 5.2                    -3.0

Dries                  2.4                 4.5                    -2.1

Burroughs          0.9                 3.1                    -2.2

Stillman              2.8                 4.3                    -1.5

Boeser               3.8                 5.2                    -1.4

Studnicka           1.2                 2.7                    -1.5

Joshua               1.7                 3.1                    -1.4

Aman                 1.2                 2.5                     -1.3

 

So interestingly OEL is nowhere near the worst on this team at even strength!

 

Neither is Miller (CDC's current whipping boy), Myers and Hughes (who many say can't defend):

 

Player              oiGF/60        oiGA/60         Goal difference/60

Miller                 2.4                 3.3                    -0.9

Myers                3.6                 3.1                    +0.5

Hughes             3.4                 3.1                    +0.3

 

His salary and usage are two reasons why he is being singled out.  Imo, he deserves all the praise and vice versa.  Right now, the eye test is bad enough and I am sure their are a group of analytics that can prove it also

[ShawnAntoski]

2 minutes ago, teepain said:

play OEL and hughes

thats what hughes wanted since the start of the season

 

lets see what they can do

Both are LH.  Personally, that might be a game I will be willing to give some time.  Make it happen Bruce

[Drakrami]

Dont get why everyone's solely bashing our defense. Aren't we also acing 2 AHL goalies who at least let in 4 goals every game? Make that 3, because Demko's also been playing like hes from the AHL this season. 

 

Martin seems like someone who by chance played really good for 6 games last season, elevating his position in everyone's mind. But showing his true colors right now. 

 

In their defense, I haven't watched many games this season, mostly just highlights. 

[Gawdzukes]

11 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

You are correct in saying OEL is one of the worst defenceman in the league.  All of his analytics are brutal.  Both the numbers and the eye test suggest the team is better off using a random LHD off waivers.  OEL is playing heavy minutes simply by virtue of him earning $7M.  But looking at plus/minus is one of the dumbest things to assess that on.  Was Seth Jones the second-worst d-man last year?  Not even close. 

 

Tyler Myers is actually our worst D-man, night in, night out.  His +/- doesn't get as banged up because he'll just take a penalty over trying to make a defensive play.

 

Agreed, and save $5-6 mil in the process.

[Dazzle]

10 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

That type of old school country club mentality is exactly what got Benning and Vancouver into the trouble we have to suffer with today.  The game has gotten faster every single year.  Our human eyes cannot keep up.  I would rather trust the geek who admits the limits of what the spreadsheets say over someone like you, who still oddly sounds like a high school bully.

Oh he was talking about Morgan Rielly??  That's hilarious.  He is basically the Toronto version of Quinn Hughes and gets paid like one too.

Ironically, I think Boudreau was the coach the 2014 Canucks needed, and maybe Torts was the one the 2022 team needed.

Torts isn't doing all that well in Philly, so....

[Dazzle]

4 hours ago, Drakrami said:

Dont get why everyone's solely bashing our defense. Aren't we also acing 2 AHL goalies who at least let in 4 goals every game? Make that 3, because Demko's also been playing like hes from the AHL this season. 

 

Martin seems like someone who by chance played really good for 6 games last season, elevating his position in everyone's mind. But showing his true colors right now. 

 

In their defense, I haven't watched many games this season, mostly just highlights. 

It's the entire team. The forwards are making sloppy passes (i.e. Miller) and they're not helping the defense out at all. In today's game, every position has to help out. The goalies let in goals, sure, but you can't expect them to do everything else. They are the last line of defense, so to speak.

[AnthonyG]

12 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Even when @RU SERIOUS gets close to saying something correct and agreeable, he still mucks it.  Good taste, but awful execution.  You are correct in saying OEL is one of the worst defenceman in the league.  All of his analytics are brutal.  Both the numbers and the eye test suggest the team is better off using a random LHD off waivers.  OEL is playing heavy minutes simply by virtue of him earning $7M.  But looking at plus/minus is one of the dumbest things to assess that on.  Was Seth Jones the second-worst d-man last year?  Not even close. 

 

Tyler Myers is actually our worst D-man, night in, night out.  His +/- doesn't get as banged up because he'll just take a penalty over trying to make a defensive play.

 

How come our worst dman leads our team in defensive point shares every season? And yes I’m talking about Myers.

[Harold Drunken]

13 hours ago, King Heffy said:

He plays most of the minutes against the opponent's top line, with poor goaltending on a bad team, and he also now has to deal with Mike Yeo sabotaging the blueline.  Edler's -39 season is a comparable.  The entire blueline has fallen off of a cliff since Shaw was replaced with a locker room cancer; a lot of problems will solve themselves once Yeo is fired.

Lol... your personal hatred for Yeo is absolutely fascinating. 

[AnthonyG]

51 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

It's the entire team. The forwards are making sloppy passes (i.e. Miller) and they're not helping the defense out at all. In today's game, every position has to help out. The goalies let in goals, sure, but you can't expect them to do everything else. They are the last line of defense, so to speak.

100% what the f*** are the forwards doing in our zone??? They chase and run around and dont tie a guy up ever. Last night multiple times we outnumbered PIT players from below the hashmarks in our own zone, yet forwards stood there watching and PIT had multiple open players. Our D are having to try and deal with an incoming shot or pass and 2 open options that the FWDs are not doing anything about.

 

Also, being destroyed in the faceoff department really doesnt help either. 63% for Pit last night. Makes it quite easy to claw their way back in, when the puck is on their stick almost all the time. Kills our PP when they win draws and kill the clock. Puts our PK under immense pressure when we dont win the draw and Pit continues to maintain possession and get chance after chance. Losing Horvat is going to hurt us so damn much if we do not find a C who wins 55%+

[Harold Drunken]

11 hours ago, King Heffy said:

The game is played on the ice, not on a spreadsheet.  I trust my own eyes, not what some unqualified geek who still gets beat up for his lunch money thinks, and I frankly have zero respect for any of the drivel they spew.  People who don't understand the sport should not be entrusted with player evaluation.  OEL and Myers aren't playing up to their contracts, but they are still useful players.

We should all just appreciate the hockey genius that is @King Heffy. He has an amazing eye to see in players what the literal rest of the professional hockey world can't. Even if he's calling people geeks getting beat up for their lunch money on a computer in a hockey forum, he's most definitely not that geek personally insulting strangers on the internet. He's our moral compass here on CDC and according to him every player in the NHL is terrible defensively and are of AHL quality except for the ones he likes. .....Oh and Mike Yeo is the devil!

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Harold Drunken

[Harold Drunken]

11 hours ago, 73 Percent said:

But he provides something. OEL is useless.

 

 

Defending OEL and calling Reilly an AHLer is some next level homer man.

 

No, it's next level delusion. 

[combover]

The team is just so bad up and down 

im no fan of the OEL trade but it’s almost at the point you can’t judge individuals on this team. The TEAM sucks 

its never been a good mix of talent we have good players just not the right players it’s been this way since no plan  Jb took over. The most expensive players don’t make them the best options Jb never figured that out. 
And we just continue doing it.