OEL has now sunk into the top 10 worst +/- players in the entire National Hockey League out of all 869 players.

[dougieL]

24 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Interesting, when did he say this?

I just wish there was some accountability. A trade that has failed to this magnitude requires an explanation from the people who orchestrated it. Benning and Wesibrod are gone, so the Sedins should step up and be accountable (as people always seem to suggest they are).

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, Baratheon said:

I agree with you on +/- but if you look at more advanced stats, they are also not terribly flattering to OEL.  This thread gets a shrug from me.  Flawed logic but there's reasons to be concerned with OEL all the same.

Which stats do you look at out of curiosity? Personally I look at oiGA, oiSV%, dZS, CORSI and I'll look into our goaltending to see wether or not (which its quite clear we havent had good goaltending) there are issues in net with weak goals. I look at dpairs and time spent with each partner, HDCA HDGA etc. There are a lot of stats to look into and get a sense of what is really going on.  Keep in mind, he takes on the top players most of the time and not only that, goaltending has been weak. Our FWDs are horrendous in our own zone too. Not only that but when guys who primarily take dzone duties, are on the ice with forwards who cant win draws, their chances of getting scored on go up. Last night in the PIT game, the 1st and 3rd goal came RIGHT after a faceoff loss for us. Then a terrible giveway/turnover at the blueline left OEL facing a 2v1 down low and its in the back of our net. Like yes OEL and Myers HAVE made bad plays and cost us goals, but overall they have a far bigger impact positively than they do negatively. Because they spend the majority of the time taking the dzone duties, they will of course be at risk of getting scored on more than any other pair, so when its in the back of the net due to bad coverage on fwds, poor goaltending or their own faults, they ALWAYS get called out, JUST because they are on the ice. Its just so dumb. Guys who handle the puck more often are more likely to turn it over just by pure chance of error being higher, guys who take the heavy brunt of defensive duties are more likely to make a mistake in their own zone. What would help is winning f***ing faceoffs to start. win the draw, gain possession and your chances of being scored on drastically drop. Yes there is still the chance of turnovers, but the chances of turnovers are FAR LESS than getting scored on overall. 

 

[DSVII]

1 minute ago, dougieL said:

I just wish there was some accountability. A trade that has failed to this magnitude requires an explanation from the people who orchestrated it. Benning and Wesibrod are gone, so the Sedins should step up and be accountable (as people always seem to suggest they are).

I don't think we'll ever get that from the org, the accountability is ultimately on JB, the Sedins were not in any influential or official capacity to suggest trades, and the Sedins themselves said they were in no way experienced enough yet to do anything at the GM or executive level. They may have offered their viewpoint to Benning, but it was his call end of day as a General Manager. And the majority of the last management group who orchestrated the trade are no longer here.

 

Sedin's were mainly focused on player development. I don't hold them responsible. 

[dougieL]

2 minutes ago, DSVII said:

I don't think we'll ever get that from the org, the accountability is ultimately on JB, the Sedins were not in any influential or official capacity to suggest trades, and the Sedins themselves said they were in no way experienced enough yet to do anything at the GM or executive level. They may have offered their viewpoint to Benning, but it was his call end of day as a General Manager. And the majority of the last management group who orchestrated the trade are no longer here.

 

Sedin's were mainly focused on player development. I don't hold them responsible. 

They were influential enough to convince Benning to include the additional second round pick that ARZ asked for in order to complete the trade. This was said by Benning himself in an interview with 650.

 

[DSVII]

2 minutes ago, dougieL said:

They were influential enough to convince Benning to include the additional second round pick that ARZ asked for in order to complete the trade. This was said by Benning himself in an interview with 650.

 

That's on Benning for even thinking that he was negotiating from a position of weakness to acquire the OEL contract lol. But I'll agree to disagree. I don't dispute that they advised him to do it, but Benning was well within his rights to say no, it was his responsibility ultimately. 

[AnthonyG]

9 minutes ago, dougieL said:

Forget about plus/minus. I agree - not a great measuring stick. What about OELs play has given you any indication that he won't be an anchor for the next 4 years? Have you seen the way he dodges shots?

 

the lack of high danger chances against when he is on the ice? the avg shot distance? medium danger chances against?

 

OEL and Myers allow lots of low danger chances against - where are the forwards? Thats where forwards should be tying guys up. Hughes and Schenn allow far more high danger and medium danger chances against. OEL and Myers xGA is 14, theyve had 16 goals against. Schenn and Hughes xGA is 16, their GA is 14. Our goalies have allowed 6 low danger goals against when Myers and OEL are on the ice. only 1 low danger goal when Schenn and Hughes are out. So to me right away I can see, they havent gotten the easy saves and 6 sh*t goals have gone in when they've done their job. Schenn and Hughes have allowed more HDGA. Keep in mind this is with a heavy dzone deployment for OEL and Myers, WHY... WHY is Schenn and QH allowing the same AND MORE of the dangerous plays happen??

[Baratheon]

6 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Which stats do you look at out of curiosity? Personally I look at oiGA, oiSV%, dZS, CORSI and I'll look into our goaltending to see wether or not (which its quite clear we havent had good goaltending) there are issues in net with weak goals. I look at dpairs and time spent with each partner, HDCA HDGA etc. There are a lot of stats to look into and get a sense of what is really going on.  Keep in mind, he takes on the top players most of the time and not only that, goaltending has been weak. Our FWDs are horrendous in our own zone too. Not only that but when guys who primarily take dzone duties, are on the ice with forwards who cant win draws, their chances of getting scored on go up. Last night in the PIT game, the 1st and 3rd goal came RIGHT after a faceoff loss for us. Then a terrible giveway/turnover at the blueline left OEL facing a 2v1 down low and its in the back of our net. Like yes OEL and Myers HAVE made bad plays and cost us goals, but overall they have a far bigger impact positively than they do negatively. Because they spend the majority of the time taking the dzone duties, they will of course be at risk of getting scored on more than any other pair, so when its in the back of the net due to bad coverage on fwds, poor goaltending or their own faults, they ALWAYS get called out, JUST because they are on the ice. Its just so dumb. Guys who handle the puck more often are more likely to turn it over just by pure chance of error being higher, guys who take the heavy brunt of defensive duties are more likely to make a mistake in their own zone. What would help is winning f***ing faceoffs to start. win the draw, gain possession and your chances of being scored on drastically drop. Yes there is still the chance of turnovers, but the chances of turnovers are FAR LESS than getting scored on overall. 

 

I try not to get too bogged down by advance stats but I do glance at Corsi, oZS vs dDZ and takeaways vs giveaways. (though I do not see the last one being discussed often so perhaps it's not as relevant as I think it is?)  In a more general sense I think that his game has been in a gradual decline for the last 5ish years.  His time in Vancouver has simply been a continuance of that.  He perhaps had a bit of a bump there compared to the last year in Arizona but I would expect the trend to continue as he ages.

[Alflives]

Clearly Benning made a great many bad moves.  But when our owner is pushing a weak minded GM to follow his insisted upon (or you’re fired) direction, then these terrible moves will happen.  And this OEL/Garland deal was the worst ever.  

Nonis was pushed by this owner to make a similarly bad trade.  But he refused.  And got fired for it.  Saved us Kessler and Edler though.  Too bad Benning didn’t have similar strength of character.  And it sure appears these new management guys are more like Benning and less like Nonis.  Weak of character. 

[kanucks25]

Anybody who has defended this trade has absolutely no understanding of modern hockey and the salary cap.

 

This is not an opinion, this is just fact.

[kanucks25]

20 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

I'm confused as to what you're getting at.  Those two have played objectively bad hockey all season long.  The numbers reflect pretty well the type of overall performance we've seen with our human eyes.  Are you suggesting Myers and OEL have actually played okay?

You are attempting to reason with someone who is either playing a character, or simply has no idea what they are talking about. The same person has spent years on this forum defending Jim Benning's idiotic decisions and the players he has acquired.

 

In other words, you are attempting to reason with someone who cannot be reasoned with.

 

(I will add that some fans prefer to defend their team/takes despite all logic pointing in the other direction because that's just how they fan, which is fine)

[MeanSeanBean]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

its in this thread that is all about OEL and its primarily about his +/- and the people going off the deep end is ridiculous he's sick to his stomach about OEL and I'm pointing out all these other players who are just as "bad" as OEL. This thread is so dumb. ROR who is a Selke winner and has had 12 consecutive years of getting Selke votes and top 5 the last 4 years including winning  the Selke. Why are we talking about +/- when one of the best shut down C's in the league has the worst +/- in the entire league? This thread is brain dead. ROR is MUCH better than his +/- indicate and OEL is also better than his +/- indicates. Our goal tending has been attrocious. The systems and dzone structure is horrendous.

Both things can be true. +/- is lame and OEL has been terrible. No need to yell about it on the internet though.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Shayster007

[AnthonyG]

32 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

I try not to get too bogged down by advance stats but I do glance at Corsi, oZS vs dDZ and takeaways vs giveaways. (though I do not see the last one being discussed often so perhaps it's not as relevant as I think it is?)  In a more general sense I think that his game has been in a gradual decline for the last 5ish years.  His time in Vancouver has simply been a continuance of that.  He perhaps had a bit of a bump there compared to the last year in Arizona but I would expect the trend to continue as he ages.

His first season in Van was not bad.
 

Before I joined the forums I was on twitter and called out how Chychrun would handle being without OEL. I said he would struggle heavily. Last season he had a real hard time without OEL. OEL is more of an all around dman. Hes on pace for 40pts and thats without primary PP time and without primary offensive deployment.

 

his game was never about speed or high octane offense. It was always about being well rounded, sort of like a Brent Seabrook imo

[dougieL]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

the lack of high danger chances against when he is on the ice? the avg shot distance? medium danger chances against?

 

OEL and Myers allow lots of low danger chances against - where are the forwards? Thats where forwards should be tying guys up. Hughes and Schenn allow far more high danger and medium danger chances against. OEL and Myers xGA is 14, theyve had 16 goals against. Schenn and Hughes xGA is 16, their GA is 14. Our goalies have allowed 6 low danger goals against when Myers and OEL are on the ice. only 1 low danger goal when Schenn and Hughes are out. So to me right away I can see, they havent gotten the easy saves and 6 sh*t goals have gone in when they've done their job. Schenn and Hughes have allowed more HDGA. Keep in mind this is with a heavy dzone deployment for OEL and Myers, WHY... WHY is Schenn and QH allowing the same AND MORE of the dangerous plays happen??

1. Not saying this will make a huge difference, but you should cite xGA per 60...

 

2. The Schenn comparison is nonsense. If OEL made 850k and hit like Schenn and blocked shots like Schenn instead of dodging them, no one would be complaining about OEL.

 

3. Can you compare Hughes's xGF per 60 5 on 5 vs OELs? Hughes brings way more to the table than OEL, so picking on one of Hughes's worst facets and comparing it to what should be one of OELs strengths is nonsense.

 

[Provost]

22 hours ago, King Heffy said:

He plays most of the minutes against the opponent's top line, with poor goaltending on a bad team, and he also now has to deal with Mike Yeo sabotaging the blueline.  Edler's -39 season is a comparable.  The entire blueline has fallen off of a cliff since Shaw was replaced with a locker room cancer; a lot of problems will solve themselves once Yeo is fired.

You mean new interim head coach Yeo?

(you are right about OEL though, he is being put into a position to fail... and he is pretty far down the list of our problems).

[AnthonyG]

46 minutes ago, dougieL said:

1. Not saying this will make a huge difference, but you should cite xGA per 60...

 

2. The Schenn comparison is nonsense. If OEL made 850k and hit like Schenn and blocked shots like Schenn instead of dodging them, no one would be complaining about OEL.

 

3. Can you compare Hughes's xGF per 60 5 on 5 vs OELs? Hughes brings way more to the table than OEL, so picking on one of Hughes's worst facets and comparing it to what should be one of OELs strengths is nonsense.

 

 

1) I'm not sure if you are telling me to check xGA per 60 or just making a joke about it with what you start #3 off with?  Either way, if you look at xGA or xGF it will be skewed in favor of deployment. So xGA/60 and xGF/60 will only benefit where those players are deployed primarily. With that being said though, OEL and Myers have a higher xGF/60 than Hughes and Schenn and yes they have a higher xGA/60 than Hughes and Schenn as well. HOWEVER Myers and OEL take on the majority of dzone duties, so their xGA/60 SHOULD be higher. Why is their xGF/60 higher, with far less ozone time? like wtf? 

 

 

2) So as a dman, hits and blocked shots can be read a few different ways.

 

1) he's physical

and

2) willing to sacrifice the body

 

It can also be read as

1) He never has the puck and has to fight for it

2) out of position and having to block shots more frequently

3) Takes himself out of position by committing to hits

 

If you maintain good positioning, you take the shots away by not giving a shooting lane, players will move the puck to the other side or elsewhere.

Good stickwork is very effective because you can cause turnovers, you dont take yourself out of position by committing to a hit and leaving open ice behind you. Not only that, but you can stop passes, deflect shots and regain possession because you are in control of your stick, whereas if you are hitting, you arent in control of your stick, your bracing for impact.

 

Nicklas Lidstrom won multiple cups rarely throwing a hit and not blocking tons of shots. His entire career he never had to be physical and never had to block shots, because he was smart and well positioned. NO I AM NOT COMPARING THE TWO AND SAYING OEL IS LIDSTROM. I'm merely pointing out a style of play that IS effective.

 

3) If Hughes isnt producing, he's not effective in his own zone. OEL can defend better and IF he gets offensive opportunities, he CAN produce. He's more well rounded, but not better offensively. 

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

 

1) I'm not sure if you are telling me to check xGA per 60 or just making a joke about it with what you start #3 off with?  Either way, if you look at xGA or xGF it will be skewed in favor of deployment. So xGA/60 and xGF/60 will only benefit where those players are deployed primarily. With that being said though, OEL and Myers have a higher xGF/60 than Hughes and Schenn and yes they have a higher xGA/60 than Hughes and Schenn as well. HOWEVER Myers and OEL take on the majority of dzone duties, so their xGA/60 SHOULD be higher. Why is their xGF/60 higher, with far less ozone time? like wtf? 

 

 

2) So as a dman, hits and blocked shots can be read a few different ways.

 

1) he's physical

and

2) willing to sacrifice the body

 

It can also be read as

1) He never has the puck and has to fight for it

2) out of position and having to block shots more frequently

3) Takes himself out of position by committing to hits

 

If you maintain good positioning, you take the shots away by not giving a shooting lane, players will move the puck to the other side or elsewhere.

Good stickwork is very effective because you can cause turnovers, you dont take yourself out of position by committing to a hit and leaving open ice behind you. Not only that, but you can stop passes, deflect shots and regain possession because you are in control of your stick, whereas if you are hitting, you arent in control of your stick, your bracing for impact.

 

Nicklas Lidstrom won multiple cups rarely throwing a hit and not blocking tons of shots. His entire career he never had to be physical and never had to block shots, because he was smart and well positioned. NO I AM NOT COMPARING THE TWO AND SAYING OEL IS LIDSTROM. I'm merely pointing out a style of play that IS effective.

 

3) If Hughes isnt producing, he's not effective in his own zone. OEL can defend better and IF he gets offensive opportunities, he CAN produce. He's more well rounded, but not better offensively. 

 

Hughes is our best D man in all three zones, with and without the puck.  We have Petey, Hughes and Demko.  Three great players.  

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

You mean new interim head coach Yeo?

(you are right about OEL though, he is being put into a position to fail... and he is pretty far down the list of our problems).

If Yeo is made the head coach in any capacity, I'm out until that dirtbag is fired.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

If Yeo is made the head coach in any capacity, I'm out until that dirtbag is fired.

Colliston is going to be our next head coach.  He will get promoted from Abby after winning the Calder Cup.  (Is that what it’s called?). Pods, Hogs, Woo and others from that team will be coming up to the big club with him. 

[King Heffy]

12 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

 

2) So as a dman, hits and blocked shots can be read a few different ways.

 

1) he's physical

and

2) willing to sacrifice the body

 

It can also be read as

1) He never has the puck and has to fight for it

2) out of position and having to block shots more frequently

3) Takes himself out of position by committing to hits

 

If you maintain good positioning, you take the shots away by not giving a shooting lane, players will move the puck to the other side or elsewhere.

Good stickwork is very effective because you can cause turnovers, you dont take yourself out of position by committing to a hit and leaving open ice behind you. Not only that, but you can stop passes, deflect shots and regain possession because you are in control of your stick, whereas if you are hitting, you arent in control of your stick, your bracing for impact.

 

Nicklas Lidstrom won multiple cups rarely throwing a hit and not blocking tons of shots. His entire career he never had to be physical and never had to block shots, because he was smart and well positioned. NO I AM NOT COMPARING THE TWO AND SAYING OEL IS LIDSTROM. I'm merely pointing out a style of play that IS effective.

 

 

 

Shot blocks can also be impacted by coaches/goalies requesting fewer attempts, to help the goalie have a better chance of seeing the puck, and lowering the amount of deflections.  Blocking a ton of shots also leads to more injuries.

[combover]

Just now, King Heffy said:

If Yeo is made the head coach in any capacity, I'm out until that dirtbag is fired.

Dredger thinks he’ll be the coach in Feb. Bruce will be let go yeo interim Tockett  in the summer. 
that’s his prediction. 
not much value in any insider anymore. just their opinion more than leaked info. 

but I can see it.