[PGT] Vancouver Canucks at Tampa Bay Lightning | Jan. 12, 2023

[Gawdzukes]

8 hours ago, buddhahoodlum said:

I believe the Broad Street Bullies won 2 Cups. 'Nuff said, I'd say.

 says Hey there Welcome to

That was 48 years ago when there were 18 teams

Nuff said exactly ... you nailed it.

 

And even then I doubt they were complete idiots who sacrificed winning just to punch people at all costs in a scrum either.

 

 

Edited January 14 by Gawdzukes

[stawns]

45 minutes ago, IBatch said:

They did something.  But didn't trade anyone other than Kesler that amounted to much.   Just a few picks and meh B prospects once they finally admitted the re-tool failed (ok they never did admit that, just treated the R word like it was dirty - 2017).. Hansen and Burrows finally had enough but both were almost done by then.    Despite always spending to the cap, trying to fill the gigantic 8 year age from Nonis second draft until Schneider was traded ... 

 

It was a mess.   Not as harsh as some, never felt they had much of a chance.   About the same or less than both ATL and CLB had when they joined.   

 

That said .. cutting corners didn't work.   And this team at best can trade Peter to pay Paul (Horvat for a 22-23 top four D)... which i'm sure they are trying first.

 

Feel we likely end up rebuilding anyways.   Does this core look good enough to you?   Yikes.     Sure maybe they can hold off one more season before dealing Brock and Myers.   And also doubt there is anyone to give that money too as well.    Those shortcuts - especially the last one with OEL and Garland, are the reason we don't have a Zegras/McTavish or a Guenther.   I like Miller and on paper with zero context was a solid trade too.   Even Myers maybe.   But those two deals, plus TT and OEL/Garland are the reason we don't have at least two very good young players on the team.    Strange rebuild.  Spending to the cap, making buyout like trades etc etc.  

They made lots of moves, they drafted pretty well and got their elite G, elite scorer and elite dman to go with their captain and elite faceoff guy to build around.  They made moves to try and put a competitive team in front of them until they were ready, sadly injuries hampered that more than everything .  Those weren't "shortcuts" there were attempts to give those young players a competitive culture so they didn't become the Oilers or Sabres.  I'm not sure what's bad about that.  

 

I'm not sure where zegras and MacT come into the picture, but I don't care about Gunther, id rather have a top 3 dman in there.

 

Nonetheless those core guys managed to develop nicely and they made decent progress until last year, which is when bold moves needed to be made, and they weren't. 

[CanucksJay]

2 hours ago, JayDangles said:

You're clearly missing the point. 

One that's been. Written out in many different ways to help you understand. 

 

There was a lot more at stake in that situation than the 2 points and a solid captain wouldn't have even had to weigh the options, they would have defended their teammate no questions asked, the 2 points be dammed.

 

The team was set back more than just two points the other night. If you don't understand what I mean by that then it's your failing.

Exactly. 2 points for what? Finishing 10th instead of 12th in the West? 

At this point, play for pride and your teammates. 

Would the Horvat defenders say the same thing if someone sucker punched Petey? 

I think everyone would be demanding action. 

 

Also I'm not just picking on Horvat. I'm calling out the team. Somebody needed to do something. 

[IBatch]

55 minutes ago, stawns said:

They made lots of moves, they drafted pretty well and got their elite G, elite scorer and elite dman to go with their captain and elite faceoff guy to build around.  They made moves to try and put a competitive team in front of them until they were ready, sadly injuries hampered that more than everything .  Those weren't "shortcuts" there were attempts to give those young players a competitive culture so they didn't become the Oilers or Sabres.  I'm not sure what's bad about that.  

 

I'm not sure where zegras and MacT come into the picture, but I don't care about Gunther, id rather have a top 3 dman in there.

 

Nonetheless those core guys managed to develop nicely and they made decent progress until last year, which is when bold moves needed to be made, and they weren't. 

If we didn't add Miller, let the cap shed naturally, we'd likely have two more young players on the team - and something else in the stable.   That's where McTavish or Zegras (know we didn't pick him) come from, just used names people know ... Nemec, Luke Hughes ... whomever.   A couple more future NHL stars.   

 

  Even the bubble year, the team was tanking fast, TT didn't stop the bleeding, without Miller and Myers ... and an internal cap, we'd have more to work with, made the team better.   And the cap to bring in those blue chip aging vets to insulate them as well (like Giroux in OTT), on deals that make sense (3-4 years) would be there too, no need to worry about EDM past or Buffalos we are making our own bad legacy right now.     Agree for sure there are more ways to skin a cat.   If you don't start with assets, it takes longer, which is part of this too.   Maybe why the team took "shortcuts".    And this is what we have as a result.   Just hope they aren't foolish enough to keep doing the same thing.    This team can't even make the playoffs.   As for Demko - love the guy and hope he works out.   But one year for sure doesn't make him blue chip.   

 

Id also rather we have a D man.   OJ .. if he worked great,  JBs plan might have too.   As far as injuries go, happens to all teams, good ones still manage.   For me anyways, it was covid that screwed JB the most, he was actually pretty decent about staggering his deals, when cap didn't go up, he took the shorter road yet again.    I still like this group, and hope it's just an off year ... but i wouldn't put money on it.   How many times have you seen the panel say we didn't properly bottom out, or read an article from a professional writer with no skin in it say the same?  No top 3 picks.   Yes the lottery messed with us there - but we still drafted ok (not great just ok) given our position even with the JV and OJ whiffs.   Thanks to EP and QHs.   

 

For years now we've been a cap team and very little to show for it.    Maybe all the cosmic hockey  Karma is paid in full, and we draft Bedard.   That's about the only thing that maybe fixes this mess and even then not without some savy changes.   We should know by the TDL what lane they pick.   

 

 

[stawns]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

If we didn't add Miller, let the cap shed naturally, we'd likely have two more young players on the team - and something else in the stable.   That's where McTavish or Zegras (know we didn't pick him) come from, just used names people know ... Nemec, Luke Hughes ... whomever.   A couple more future NHL stars.   

 

  Even the bubble year, the team was tanking fast, TT didn't stop the bleeding, without Miller and Myers ... and an internal cap, we'd have more to work with, made the team better.   And the cap to bring in those blue chip aging vets to insulate them as well (like Giroux in OTT), on deals that make sense (3-4 years) would be there too, no need to worry about EDM past or Buffalos we are making our own bad legacy right now.     Agree for sure there are more ways to skin a cat.   If you don't start with assets, it takes longer, which is part of this too.   Maybe why the team took "shortcuts".    And this is what we have as a result.   Just hope they aren't foolish enough to keep doing the same thing.    This team can't even make the playoffs.   As for Demko - love the guy and hope he works out.   But one year for sure doesn't make him blue chip.   

 

Id also rather we have a D man.   OJ .. if he worked great,  JBs plan might have too.   As far as injuries go, happens to all teams, good ones still manage.   For me anyways, it was covid that screwed JB the most, he was actually pretty decent about staggering his deals, when cap didn't go up, he took the shorter road yet again.    I still like this group, and hope it's just an off year ... but i wouldn't put money on it.   How many times have you seen the panel say we didn't properly bottom out, or read an article from a professional writer with no skin in it say the same?  No top 3 picks.   Yes the lottery messed with us there - but we still drafted ok (not great just ok) given our position even with the JV and OJ whiffs.   Thanks to EP and QHs.   

 

For years now we've been a cap team and very little to show for it.    Maybe all the cosmic hockey  Karma is paid in full, and we draft Bedard.   That's about the only thing that maybe fixes this mess and even then not without some savy changes.   We should know by the TDL what lane they pick.   

 

 

We'll agree to disagree.  Yiyve still got to have players to play important roles and those players are hard to get.  OEL landed in their laps and filled a need that needed to be filled.  I have zero issues with adding a top three damn.

 

[JayDangles]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

I understand what you're saying, I'm just disagreeing with you.  There's nothing more important than the two points, that's why they play the games and every player knows that.  I just watched the movie "Ice Guardians" and to a man, every player interviewed said the toughest thing for them to learn, after the instigator rule was put in, is when to fight and when not to fight because you never, ever put your team down a man and risk losing the two points.  There is nothing more important than the W.

Yep, ok to disagree. 

In the short time I agree that the players need to play always for the W. But I do think the players know that they need to play the right way in order to be able to get more W's, and I do think that was a missed opportunity last night to build some team chemistry and show that your C has your back.

[lmm]

16 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

Sorry didn't mean to come off so hot under the collar. I will conclude it looked like a hockey judgement call play to me but seemed like people are just taking the opportunity to throw Bo under the bus. That's fine if people judge captaincy like that and want more. For me the captain is just a player like everyone else. It takes a team to win and I have no problem with my teammate trying to win the game by not taking a dumb penalty. I'm pretty much never getting mad at my teammate for not punching people or mixing it up (not like missing a wide open net) as long as they play good hockey. They are your teammates. I might give them a half shrug but mad ... no .. never.

 

Bo just isn't a bang and crasher. He probably isn't the captain of captains but do you think Bo is too weak of a player to even be in the NHL with that weak of a display?

No Worries Gawdz

I will say that I respect your comments 

And I am certainly guilty of inflicting wrath 

 

NO, I think Bo is a very good player

and yes I want to see him traded

and when he goes I fully expect to see him excel with his new team, without the burden of the C

I want to see him traded as much for his own good as well as the good of the team

I am not a homer "love the Canucks and hate all others" , so I can enjoy Bo's success in an other uniform (except Boston, where unfortunately I think he will end up)

there has been a lot of talk about all the great ways JB shielded the youth etc

and I believe that most of ol Jim's methods were wrong

Bo Horvat is a product of those mistakes

I think I said earlier that Bo is everything we thought Brock Boeser would be

enough about that

 

You say you don't get mad at your teammates, but maybe give them a half shrug

which is fine at what ever level you play at

but I think that is what has been happening in Vancouver for a very long time

We can go back as far as Naslund and his "We choked" line or Daniel eating punches from Marchand

these things have been met with a half shrug, and that is the environment that Bo has grown up with

I think when JR called out Bruce's  coaching, Bruce gave it a half shrug as well

and Miller, we've seen it as he glides back to the bench

 

So when people talk about this or that being an isolated incident, I don't see it that way

there are many more examples and any one of them in a vacuum is not a problem

Just as one bad goal or one bad draft pick is not a problem, but this is the culture of this team

 

Jo Sakic and Steve Yzerman came up through really bad teams

so its not just the losing, guys can come through a losing team and still create a winner

Rod Brind 'Amour has produced more as a coach than he did as a player, but I think the success of the Hurricanes rests firmly on Rod's shoulders

these are guys that I just don't see shrug things off

Pat Quinn is the closest the Canucks have ever had to that type of presence, and when ever he stepped away from coaching, the team failed

 

until the Canucks find that type of person/presence I think they are doomed to failure

[Gurn]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

We should know by the TDL what lane they pick.  

Imo, Hopefully well before the deadline.

Too much risk of player injury, to our trade assets, and too many games played, leaving us in the mushy middle

[Gawdzukes]

10 minutes ago, lmm said:

No Worries Gawdz

I will say that I respect your comments 

And I am certainly guilty of inflicting wrath 

 

NO, I think Bo is a very good player

and yes I want to see him traded

and when he goes I fully expect to see him excel with his new team, without the burden of the C

I want to see him traded as much for his own good as well as the good of the team

I am not a homer "love the Canucks and hate all others" , so I can enjoy Bo's success in an other uniform (except Boston, where unfortunately I think he will end up)

there has been a lot of talk about all the great ways JB shielded the youth etc

and I believe that most of ol Jim's methods were wrong

Bo Horvat is a product of those mistakes

I think I said earlier that Bo is everything we thought Brock Boeser would be

enough about that

 

You say you don't get mad at your teammates, but maybe give them a half shrug

which is fine at what ever level you play at

but I think that is what has been happening in Vancouver for a very long time

We can go back as far as Naslund and his "We choked" line or Daniel eating punches from Marchand

these things have been met with a half shrug, and that is the environment that Bo has grown up with

I think when JR called out Bruce's  coaching, Bruce gave it a half shrug as well

and Miller, we've seen it as he glides back to the bench

 

So when people talk about this or that being an isolated incident, I don't see it that way

there are many more examples and any one of them in a vacuum is not a problem

Just as one bad goal or one bad draft pick is not a problem, but this is the culture of this team

 

Jo Sakic and Steve Yzerman came up through really bad teams

so its not just the losing, guys can come through a losing team and still create a winner

Rod Brind 'Amour has produced more as a coach than he did as a player, but I think the success of the Hurricanes rests firmly on Rod's shoulders

these are guys that I just don't see shrug things off

Pat Quinn is the closest the Canucks have ever had to that type of presence, and when ever he stepped away from coaching, the team failed

 

until the Canucks find that type of person/presence I think they are doomed to failure

Good comments Imm. I totally agree on Bo and hope to see him have great success without being a Captain elsewhere.

 

I can kind of see what you mean by it not being an isolated incident as we are a soft group overall. I personally feel it has to come from within the group though and not lead by one insanely fearless man like in the movie 300. This team is so crappy I don't think anyone short of the best Captains ever would change much unfortunately. I think the bigger issue is personel and when we actually have a team that's competitive then maybe the Captain becomes an issue.

 

To clarify with regard to the incident and even the Sedin's. Of course you want pushback and all that but part of that is hindsight. Clearly in both cases the players thought a penalty was coming and that was more the cause of standing down than some perceived lack of pushback imo. When I say shrug my shoulders I mean not like you don't care but recognize a teammate made a judgment call and it didn't work out in their favor. It's like shooting on the 2 on 1 when maybe they could have passed. I may mention after hey you could have passed on that 2 on 1 but I'm going to respect their hockey ability and not harp on it forever either. You could criticize players all day for little choices made in the game. That decision gets made in a split second. I highly doubt either Yzerman or Sakic punches Sergachev in the face in that same instance lol.

 

I wonder if maybe Bieksa comments on it tonight?

[NHTyrany]

4 hours ago, stawns said:

I understand what you're saying, I'm just disagreeing with you.  There's nothing more important than the two points, that's why they play the games and every player knows that.  I just watched the movie "Ice Guardians" and to a man, every player interviewed said the toughest thing for them to learn, after the instigator rule was put in, is when to fight and when not to fight because you never, ever put your team down a man and risk losing the two points.  There is nothing more important than the W.

Perhaps when you are vying for a play-off berth. Even then the risk is great that the players become solo. The Nucks don't need the points, they need a new, tougher, identity.

[lmm]

16 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

Time and place 

 

go after him later when you play next 

 

or if you’re up 2 goals go for it 

 

Otherwise we’ll be the easiest team to bait into taking a penalty 

the real irony in this thread is that there is a group who have said, " This is not the 80s, the 80s is gone forever"

and that same group believe that the "ONLY" way to stand up for your mate is to take a penalty, and the reason you take that penalty is by resorting to 80s style justice

even the idea about taking a number, why not tell the guy you have taken his number? Is that going to net you a penalty?

 

why is it that this group who believe that they are talking to neanderthals cannot fathom standing up for a mate without immediately punching another player in the head?

it's ironic really

 

it seems the term "Stand up" is misunderstood

 

Derek Dorsett was the easiest bait ever

the guy took every fight, no matter the situation