Just Because There Was No Management Thread

[ToTellTheTruth]

I looked at several forum pages and didn't find any titles that deal with this new management over all.

 

So I thought what the heck.

 

I was thrilled when the owner's finally had enough of the Benning incompetence and cleaned house, a scorched earth cleansing at the top.

I thought that with all the new more competent front office staff combined with Rutherford's initial statements there would be finally real change to the team after all they had no skin in the game with these players. Being new they could get away with many moves and create fan certainty about the direction the team was taking, a plan with a future.

 

It was great, new blood with inclusion and an experienced mentor in Rutherford who finally stated what most fans recognized years ago, the team structure at every level was a mess.

 

Allvin was an unknown but seemed to be on track with Rutherford. I was a little startled when noting happened at the first TDL even though Bruce had the team on a hot streak, to the fans this was an anomaly and even Bruce kept saying to not do the "Bruce there it is" stuff and kept saying he hadn't done anything. To me this was just the Hawthorne effect, improvement over a short period of time because the players also got the idea that with an entirely new front office good changes would be made. The trade deadline came and went and with it much trade value. Miller who had been a suspected trade asset for over a year was still on the team. Well that might get changed at the draft or over summer.

 

I still believed they would create cap space as was stated when hired.

 

To my dismay they gave Boeser a raise and then signed Mikheyev and astonishingly signed Miller to an albatross anchor contract as bad as any given out by the guy just fired and totally contrary to statements made at hiring. Did we the fans just get suckered again I thought. Were we being treated like ignorant instant gratification naïve fans? Unfortunately the answer appeared to be yes. There was no need to sign Miller at that time, they had another year to decide that and with the other signings it became clear they wanted to try to continue the failed results of the previous 6 years and that their concept of the fans was a single playoff appearance was a win and would satisfy this fanbase.

 

Rutherford kept saying what fans thought, it needed to be fixed. But he hired Allvin to run the team and as such he stepped back on some of his comments, like even though he hadn't been hired yet he gave the Boudreau hiring the green light and stamp of approval. Bruce had stated all along he wanted to see what he could do with a training camp and it was public knowledge that Bruce had a two year contract. Only Allvin didn't know that so Rutherford had to take some heat off of Allvin for the way he failed to read the fanbase and the team. IMO Allvin listened too much to the Sedin's and thought he could get the band together with some candy for the fans.

 

Rutherford stated he watched the team, that there was plenty of history with this group so a long term learning period was not necessary that there were lots of stats to use. He hired Allvin and the Chipmunks and as soon as Allvin was designated the top dog he had to retract most of his statements, Allvin was running the team and would do it his way. What a disaster. Players like fans were disappointed and baffled with signings and lack of trades. Miller was no doubt prepared to be moved, it had been the top rumour for a year but instead he gets a contract that will disable the team in 3 years and for another 4 after. A contract that Rutherford had stated was to be avoided, long term for aged player.

 

That takes us to today, Horvat is moving, I think that was decided by Horvat in the summer and in a panic Allvin signed Miller and Mikheyev. 

Rutherford is not the GM, he does not run the team Allvin does, it is Allvin's vision that they are following.

 

The team is worse today than last year in almost every way. Before the was the OEL contract to deal with and now there are two of those, double jeopardy. Two players that will be 35+ yrs old making over 7.5 million each with one, Miller, running until he is 37 yrs old at 8 million.

 

I hate the word hope, to me it is a word used when there is nothing real or an imaginary goal. Sure I hope they win a Stanley Cup but for 50+ years that is all it has been, hope or a dream. Fantasy until it happens

But I hope now that there really was some plan to trade Miller where it required cost certainty and that is why he was signed early and not because Horvat and Pettersson have decided to move on so they felt they needed to keep at least one core player.

I HOPE they do follow up on the hiring day statements that brought back some fan trust which is rapidly dissolving now.

I HOPE there really is a plan going forward because a 12 year old can do math and read contract salary caps, terms and clauses and know old player don't play the same or get better as they age.

 

Right now I believe this management group is on the edge of losing the fanbase again. Essentially 4 GM's and nothing happening, no messages from any of them, no appearances at stakeholder meetings, no meaningful interviews that aren't scripted before hand. 

 

 

Edited January 13 by ToTellTheTruth

[24K PureCool]

We need to clean house again and hire someone who ain't so keen on nepotism hires. 

 

This management is as bad or just plain worse than Jim Benning. 

Edited January 13 by 24K PureCool

[DSVII]

It's not fair that this group has such a short leash and no wiggle room or goodwill because of the mess left by Benning, but it is the reality. It was a reality of the situation they walked into. To me, they have this trade deadline to show that they are going to move this franchise in a meaningful direction otherwise yeah, it's the same story. The managerial identity of this franchise since Gillis has been to cut corners and take short cuts to make a 97pt bar in the regular season. That needs to change.

 

Ultimately though, if there is no change in the overall picture, that is because of the Owner. He is the common denominator in all this incompetence since 2012-2013. Until he is either gone, or he admits that playoffs now at all costs is a directive he needs move off of, we will get more of the same.

[24K PureCool]

6 minutes ago, DSVII said:

It's not fair that this group has such a short leash and no wiggle room or goodwill because of the mess left by Benning, but it is the reality. It was a reality of the situation they walked into. To me, they have this trade deadline to show that they are going to move this franchise in a meaningful direction otherwise yeah, it's the same story. The managerial identity of this franchise since Gillis has been to cut corners and take short cuts to make a 97pt bar in the regular season. That needs to change.

 

Ultimately though, if there is no change in the overall picture, that is because of the Owner. He is the common denominator in all this incompetence since 2012-2013. Until he is either gone, or he admits that playoffs now at all costs is a directive he needs move off of, we will get more of the same.

They have a short lesh cause they made their own bed in re-siging Miller and Boeser. 

 

The Miller signing alone is worthy of getting this whole management thrown into the Fraser River. 

[kanucks25]

11 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

We need to clean house again and hire someone who ain't so keen on nepotism hires. 

 

This management is as worse or just plain worse than Jim Benning. 

[King Heffy]

The last competent GM we had was Nonis, who got fired for standing up to ownership.  This new crew has done nothing to indicate they're capable of making any positive impact.

[DSVII]

8 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

They have a short lesh cause they made their own bed in re-siging Miller and Boeser. 

 

The Miller signing alone is worthy of getting this whole management thrown into the Fraser River. 

Their margin for error was much  smaller than Benning ever had in his first years. Where he was able to absorb mistakes like Loui and Sbisa because the team cap situation wasn't as tight as it was when PA took over. And as a rookie GM, he wasn't ready to bite the bullet and swallow a loss like letting Boeser walk or taking less assets for Miller as his first move. It. (Again enough rookie GM hires..)

 

And you can 100% almost guarantee if we had let boeser walk or took less for Miller there would be detractors here playing the "what if" game. Knives were already out for JR and PA and JR before they did much.

 

That context alone makes me a little sympathetic. Every group deserves a mulligan. I gave JB two years and I'm giving just one to PA because of how quickly we need to course correct.

 

Also. Until PA does a move like the OEL trade. This group is nowhere near as bad as Benning. 

 

 

Edited January 13 by DSVII

[24K PureCool]

1 minute ago, DSVII said:

Their margin for error was much  smaller than Benning ever had in his first years. Where he was able to absorb mistakes like Loui and Sbisa because the team cap situation wasn't as tight as it was when PA took over. And as a rookie GM, he wasn't ready to bite the bullet and swallow a loss like letting Boeser walk or taking less assets for Miller as his first move. It. (Again enough rookie GM hires..)

 

That context alone makes me a little sympathetic. Every group deserves a mulligan. I gave JB two years and I'm giving just one to PA because of how quickly we need to course correct.

 

Also. Until PA does a move like the OEL trade. This group is nowhere near as bad as Benning. 

 

 

He already did his OEL and it is Miller.

 

I don't give much sympathy to Alvin as he has Rutherford who should know better. 

 

Their constant throwing of Bruce under the bus also doesn't help the situation. 

[BlakeQuinnAndEggs]

21 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

We need to clean house again and hire someone who ain't so keen on nepotism hires. 

 

This management is as worse or just plain worse than Jim Benning. 

You really can't say that after a year.

 

Who knows what happens this off season. Kuzmenko and lekerrimaki could be future stars. You can't predict the future.

 

I don't Want this mgmt to have as long of a leash as Benning had, it just gave jimbo more time to ruin this team.

 

But you can't assess a management groups job with such little time and especially with the mess he has to clean up 

[jyu]

The only big mistake of the new management that will have a long term ramification is re-signing Miller over Horvat.

 

Yes, Miller is a high end offensive player coming off a 99 point season. But he's a player better suited as a winger and one that is likely to deteriorate over time. And with signing of Kuz and Petey taking over the reigns, there's even less rationale for choosing Miller over Horvat. We could have Kuz-Hughes-Petey on PP1 with Horvat and Boeser down low. I'm sure that PP would still produce.

 

Other decisions like re-signing Boeser is not as huge a mistake. Boeser was an RFA and his previous contract ensured that he'd get a raise. And a 3 year contract is something we can live with even if Boeser has plateaued as a 20 goal 50 point guy.

 

Another small mistake may be letting go of Lammikko, Highmore, and Motte. In hindsight, Motte signed only a moderate contract and he's an excellent on PK. A 4th line that plays with pace is missing on this team right now. 

 

Not upgrading defence was because there weren't options available and we didn't have cap. It's hard to upgrade the defence.

 

There are plenty of moves that were good like signing Kuz, Mikheyev, Joshua, Lazar, and Aman. Sending Podz and Hogs down for more development was also good.

 

I'm willing to be patient and see what they do. I hope they don't disappoint this TDL. Trade Horvat and get good return for him and re-sign Kuz.

 

Edited January 13 by jyu

[DSVII]

8 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

He already did his OEL and it is Miller.

 

I don't give much sympathy to Alvin as he has Rutherford who should know better. 

 

Their constant throwing of Bruce under the bus also doesn't help the situation. 

Look at the transactions in isolation.

 

OEL was giving another team a  top 10 draft pick, and 2nd and 13 mil of cap flexibility for the next 4-5 years. To take on a declining Defenseman playing replacement level hockey and middling forward. In a cap strapped enviroment, its the equivalent of throwing your drowning opponent a life jacket while you take his concrete shoes.

 

Re-signing Miller is not in the same stratosphere. Didn't cost us draft capital and still 5 mil cheaper. And defense aside. Offers top line production still ATM.

 

If we put the errors of the past regime on a scale for ratings.  I place the magnitute of Miller slightly worse than Sbisa extension and not as bad as the Loui Eriksson contract.

 

I agree. Not cool what they're doing with Bruce. But it's on the owner too for not informing management of the contract he was offered.

Edited January 13 by DSVII

[24K PureCool]

57 minutes ago, BlakeQuinnAndEggs said:

You really can't say that after a year.

 

Who knows what happens this off season. Kuzmenko and lekerrimaki could be future stars. You can't predict the future.

 

I don't Want this mgmt to have as long of a leash as Benning had, it just gave jimbo more time to ruin this team.

 

But you can't assess a management groups job with such little time and especially with the mess he has to clean up 

That is the point here. They didn't clean up the mess. They added ontop of it. If this team is playing like this and they didn't give themselves a new albatross in Miller and to a lesser extend Boeser than I buy the argument they didn't have enough time.

Edited January 13 by 24K PureCool

[24K PureCool]

5 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Look at the transactions in isolation.

 

OEL was giving another team a  top 10 draft pick, and 2nd and 13 mil of cap flexibility for the next 4-5 years. To take on a declining Defenseman playing replacement level hockey and middling forward. In a cap strapped enviroment, its the equivalent of throwing your drowning opponent a life jacket while you take his concrete shoes.

 

Re-signing Miller is not in the same stratosphere. Didn't cost us draft capital and still 5 mil cheaper. And defense aside. Offers top line production still ATM.

 

If we put the errors of the past regime on a scale for ratings.  I place the magnitute of Miller slightly worse than Sbisa extension and not as bad as the Loui Eriksson contract.

 

I agree. Not cool what they're doing with Bruce. But it's on the owner too for not informing management of the contract he was offered.

Look it this way.

 

Re-siging Miller and not trading him cost us at the very least a young RHD, 1st round pick and a prospect. So essentially we traded a 1st, a young rhd, and a b level prospect for a 8 million anchor for the next 7 years. That sound almost as bad as the OEL trade. 

 

Also, like you said the Jim signing of Sbisa and Loui can be absorbed by the team at the time due to literally having cap space so why not use it vs Miller signing to a team already in cap hell. You can't just look at it in isolation. Alvin and more importantly a veteran manager like Rutherfird should have known better. 

 

Also they are not off the hook for the Bruce situation, even if they don't know about the 2nd year, they could have stood up and be adamant that they need their own guy rather than tolling Aqua's company line. Heck it makes them look more weak and give the perception of being a puppet management group again. 

[MaxVerstappen33]

All the team has to show for the Benning firing is JT Millers new contract. Benning most likely does not make this signing 

[Fanuck]

Here's my thoughts on current management:

 

-said the team needs more structure and discipline and they'd be fine  -  absolutely nothing changed.

 

-said this team lacks picks/prospects in the organization then traded a 2nd for a fringe NHL'er.

 

-said they didn't have enough high end young defenceman in the organization and then drafted another winger

 

-said they wanted to get cap flexibility - the re-signed Boeser and gave JTM an untradeable career-defining contract.

 

-said they needed to address the defence last offseason and came back with the exact same group expecting different results 

 

-acknowledged they needed to improve the PK yet we sit dead last in the league in this area 

 

-publicly went on record saying if things didn't turn around 'hard decisions' would need to be made - then they sent a couple peripheral guys to the AHL.

 

-backed themselves into a corner with their Captain who's having a career season and is unlikely to be re-signed leaving a potential gaping hole in the lineup 

 

Needless to say, my confidence in this current management group is not high. 

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

32 minutes ago, DSVII said:

It's not fair that this group has such a short leash and no wiggle room or goodwill because of the mess left by Benning, but it is the reality. It was a reality of the situation they walked into. To me, they have this trade deadline to show that they are going to move this franchise in a meaningful direction otherwise yeah, it's the same story. The managerial identity of this franchise since Gillis has been to cut corners and take short cuts to make a 97pt bar in the regular season. That needs to change.

 

Ultimately though, if there is no change in the overall picture, that is because of the Owner. He is the common denominator in all this incompetence since 2012-2013. Until he is either gone, or he admits that playoffs now at all costs is a directive he needs move off of, we will get more of the same.

I partially agree that they were dealt a bad hand from the beginning, but this new management also contributed to the failures in the year they've been here. 

Obviously the OEL contract was something they couldn't do much about since it was signed the offseason before this new regime came in.

However, if they were hired and realized what they need to do, you'd think they'd be a little more strategic.

Surely as professionals, you'd think they had a sense of what they were going into and not blindly accepting the job being completely unaware. 

 

I refuse to believe they couldn't find any good deal on a 99 point Miller in his prime and an extra year of a cheap contract to acquire the assets we desperately need. 

If not that situation with that player, then who else could've potentially brought in the most trade assets in return that we realistically would be willing to trade?

They willingly re-signed him and gave him his retirement contract knowing that we still had a p*ss poor defensive unit and not even any elite defensive prospects in the pipeline. Funny thing is, JR and PA talked about this issue every time in their press conferences when first arriving, saying it needs to be addressed. 

 

Not only that, but you should expect all potential situations when your captain's contract is also literally up the next year. 

If you weren't going to trade JT Miller the past offseason, ok. You could've still easily waited to examine at least the beginning/first half of the next season to see who you'd want to prioritize and bring back. Use Miller's remaining term to your advantage literally. But no. 

 

For such an "experienced" management group, very disappointing with how hasty and naive they've been with their decision making. 

[MaxVerstappen33]

48 minutes ago, DSVII said:

It's not fair that this group has such a short leash and no wiggle room or goodwill because of the mess left by Benning, but it is the reality. It was a reality of the situation they walked into. To me, they have this trade deadline to show that they are going to move this franchise in a meaningful direction otherwise yeah, it's the same story. The managerial identity of this franchise since Gillis has been to cut corners and take short cuts to make a 97pt bar in the regular season. That needs to change.

 

Ultimately though, if there is no change in the overall picture, that is because of the Owner. He is the common denominator in all this incompetence since 2012-2013. Until he is either gone, or he admits that playoffs now at all costs is a directive he needs move off of, we will get more of the same.

That was the talking point last year. And all they have to show for it is the Miller non trade and subsequent signing. 

 

But again, I sorta blame ownership. Benning and Rutherfraud are both trying to win the stanley cup every year. With no step back, no off years allowed. Because thats the ownership mandate. The Miller trade didn't happen because it had to be a hockey trade. It couldn't be a futures trade. Because that would mean we might have an off year. 

[VegasCanuck]

So, although I do think they focused on the wrong part of the team during last summer and didn't do enough to upgrade our defense and transition game, I'm willing to give them more time to work. What I do like about the current team is, they aren't making trades or bad trades, just for the sake of making a trade.

 

We need to move someone upfront to bring back a good defensive asset and make cap room. The problem is, even if you look at Garland, who I think they are interested in moving, there is only 7 or 8 teams in the league who, due to cap space, could take his contract without either shipping someone back who we might not want, or figuring out how to make the space necessary to take on his contract. The teams who would realistically be interested in him, there's maybe 2 that could do it, all the rest of the NHL would have to make significant changes to their lineup with anything they do. As we get closer to the deadline, cap space becomes a little easier to come by as teams will have accumulated LTIR that they can work with and if they feel they are in a position to make a strong run in the playoffs, will become more aggressive on what they will be willing to do to move cap.

 

So, I'm waiting to see how these guys perform around the upcoming trade deadline before I really start to get down on them. There are a lot of teams out there interested in making changes, but they are ALL stuck in the same position.

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

6 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

That was the talking point last year. And all they have to show for it is the Miller non trade and subsequent signing. 

 

But again, I sorta blame ownership. Benning and Rutherfraud are both trying to win the stanley cup every year. With no step back, no off years allowed. Because thats the ownership mandate. The Miller trade didn't happen because it had to be a hockey trade. It couldn't be a futures trade. Because that would mean we might have an off year. 

Does this mean we'll be in mediocrity forever until and if ownership changes? 

Gillis was shut down right away by this moronic owner too when he suggested taking the rebuild route a decade ago.

 

Seems like this guy Aquilini never learns.

[NUCKER67]

I haven't been impressed with JR/PA. I want them to do stuff, and lots of it. I don't like the current team the way it is.  The OEL/Garland trade was terrible, and to think the Canucks could've had Guenther instead and a whole lot of cap space to play with if they waited one more year for those contracts to end. Sickening.

 

JR/PA are faced with a huge mess left from the Benning era, and it's going to take time, maybe a long time, to sort out. 

 

JR/PA did bring in some pretty good players IMO - Kuzmenko, Mikheyev, Bear, Lazar, Aman, Studnicka, Pederson, and in their first Draft they selected Lekkerimaki and Pettersson, which isn't bad. Time will tell. 

 

I think they have a plan and every move seems to be very calculated. They just aren't telling anyone about the plan, which is maddening. 

 

The TDL is going to be the telling point. Who will be traded and who is coming back? There has to be big changes next season, players and coaching staff.