Just Because There Was No Management Thread

[DSVII]

18 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

Look it this way.

 

Re-siging Miller and not trading him cost us at the very least a young RHD, 1st round pick and a prospect. So essentially we traded a 1st, a young rhd, and a b level prospect for a 8 million anchor for the next 7 years. That sound almost as bad as the OEL trade. 

 

Also, like you said the Jim signing of Sbisa and Loui can be absorbed by the team at the time due to literally having cap space so why not use it vs Miller signing to a team already in cap hell. You can't just look at it in isolation. Alvin and more importantly a veteran manager like Rutherfird should have known better. 

 

Also they are not off the hook for the Bruce situation, even if they don't know about the 2nd year, they could have stood up and be adamant that they need their own guy rather than tolling Aqua's company line. Heck it makes them look more weak and give the perception of being a puppet management group again. 

I don't think the magnitude is the same, and when you look at Opportunity cost, it isn't detracting from our default asset pool, it was a lost opportunity to add to it. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that this was a major mistake. Just not in the same stratosphere. But agree in that it was a huge blunder. 

 

I'm more inclined to think the bolded now vs 12 months ago. I'm not going to die on a hill for JR/PA, but I'm very skeptical their eventual replacements will be any better until Ownership changes, either their vision/MO or they just sell the team. 

 

 

 

 

[DJSkingz]

The coming TDL will tell us all we need to know about the state of the franchise going forward. If the worst case happens (as I believe it will since I'm a bit of a pessimist) we move no one, lose Horvat to UFA for nothing and go on a small streak to take us out of the lottery for 1st overall.

 

I am very open to being proven wrong and hope TO GOD that this management team has a direction and are just keeping tight lipped.

[PhillipBlunt]

Based solely on the moves and statements made by this new management group, they ain't good. Signing Miller to the contract before they signed Bo was a colossal error, one that I honestly don't think Benning would have made, and he made some doozies. If their goal was to divide the room, they succeeded.

 

Ruthelvin's idea that Miller was of precedence over Horvat shows clearly that they have no plan or vision of the team. Signing Joshua, Lazar, Mikeyev, and Kuzmenko was decent, but completely failing to address the biggest weakness this team has had since 2011, the complete lack of an anywhere decent defense, was inexcusable. 

Trading for Bear was smart, but will Bear amount to anything more than a 3rd pairing defenseman? The issue has been with spots 2 through 4 not being occupied by capable enough defensemen, although I do think Schenn is awesome, and I hope he weathers this horrible season and decides to stay. Alvin's statement that the defense was good enough to compete only serves to show that this guy really is out of his depth. 

 

 

[DSVII]

49 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

I partially agree that they were dealt a bad hand from the beginning, but this new management also contributed to the failures in the year they've been here. 

Obviously the OEL contract was something they couldn't do much about since it was signed the offseason before this new regime came in.

However, if they were hired and realized what they need to do, you'd think they'd be a little more strategic.

Surely as professionals, you'd think they had a sense of what they were going into and not blindly accepting the job being completely unaware. 

 

I refuse to believe they couldn't find any good deal on a 99 point Miller in his prime and an extra year of a cheap contract to acquire the assets we desperately need. 

If not that situation with that player, then who else could've potentially brought in the most trade assets in return that we realistically would be willing to trade?

They willingly re-signed him and gave him his retirement contract knowing that we still had a p*ss poor defensive unit and not even any elite defensive prospects in the pipeline. Funny thing is, JR and PA talked about this issue every time in their press conferences when first arriving, saying it needs to be addressed. 

 

Not only that, but you should expect all potential situations when your captain's contract is also literally up the next year. 

If you weren't going to trade JT Miller the past offseason, ok. You could've still easily waited to examine at least the beginning/first half of the next season to see who you'd want to prioritize and bring back. Use Miller's remaining term to your advantage literally. But no. 

 

For such an "experienced" management group, very disappointing with how hasty and naive they've been with their decision making. 

I 100% agree with everything here. Cheers mate.

 

My only slightly different take here is the only experienced member in the group is JR at that level. Everyone else is a rookie at their jobs, that has always been a red flag from this ownership group since Nonis. Rookie GMs are more malleable and less likely to stand up against ownership's directives.

 

This is not a proper NHL Franchise, it is a Tutorial Sandbox for up and coming NHL Execs

 

Edited January 13 by DSVII

[VegasCanuck]

Until the last few games, I really thought that management would wait till offseason to find a new coach. Especially after the defensive breakdowns last night, I really think that they will probably replace Boudreau before the end of the season. I think I heard that they might be looking at Rick Tocchet as a take over

 

Something structurally is really broken with this team, and they aren't showing any ability to play themselves out of it.

[86Viking]

7 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

Until the last few games, I really thought that management would wait till offseason to find a new coach. Especially after the defensive breakdowns last night, I really think that they will probably replace Boudreau before the end of the season. I think I heard that they might be looking at Rick Tocchet as a take over

 

Something structurally is really broken with this team, and they aren't showing any ability to play themselves out of it.

If Canucks do fire Boudreau, they should replace all the assistant coaches as well...except for Goaltending coach Ian Clark

[ToTellTheTruth]

Turns out to be some what popular thread thanks all.

 

On the Coach stuff. They knew, they hired and vetted Yeo for the assistant role and aske Bruce what he thought, 3 weeks later started saying they didn't know he had a 2 year or rather one and a half year contract taking him to the end of this year.

They knew;

Canucks: Bruce Boudreau returning as head coach

The Vancouver Canucks confirmed Friday that the popular head coach will be back for the 2022-23 NHL season.

Author of the article:

Patrick Johnston

Published May 13, 2022  •  4 minute read

 

Coaching Staff Updates

by Canucks Communications @Canucks / Vancouver Canucks July 1, 2022

Vancouver, B.C. - Vancouver Canucks General Manager Patrik Allvin and Abbotsford Canucks General Manger Ryan Johnson announced today changes to the club's coaching staff. Mike Yeo has been brought on as an Assistant Coach and Trent Cull has been promoted to Assistant Coach of the Vancouver Canucks. Jeremy Colliton will take over as Head Coach of the Abbotsford Canucks, while Brad Shaw will be leaving the organization to take an Associate Coach position with the Philadelphia Flyers.  

"We're pleased to have solidified our Coaching staff for next season with the promotion of Trent Cull and the additions of Mike Yeo and Jeremy Colliton," said Allvin. "These individuals bring a lot of hockey experience and knowledge to the group. We would like to thank Brad Shaw for his contributions to the club and wish him the best of luck in Philadelphia." 

"I am so excited to help bring this group of coaches together," said Canucks Head Coach Bruce Boudreau. "When I started the conversations with Mike Yeo, it became clear to me that he would be an excellent addition. Working with Patrik to create a well-rounded staff was very important for us as we look to continue to build upon the momentum we experienced last season." 

 

In fairness Benning worst contract was Eriksson's very similar to Miller's in salary and term with clauses.

But Benning essentially traded 4 tradable assets, vets in their last year that would have value at the TDL and a first, second and seventh round picks essentially for Garland and a two year rental with a poison pill contract. Benning takes the heat for that trade.

 

Hopefully when the OEL type trade happens it is for a one year deal that gains a top draft pick or it is for a player on LTIR because they need the added cap allowance.

It almost has to happen, taking on a bad contract, it should be a short term contract that adds to the future and it should be very soon if they really want to put this team into not just contention for a playoff spot but in one and contending for series wins.

 

One year isn't enough to be able to read? Or add?

 

Kuzmenko and Lettermaki future stars? Hey I hear that Jones kid could be a star too. Kuzmenko's agent will want a ransom, what is a 70/80 point winger worth? It was reported 25+ teams wanted him, he came here because this was one of the only teams that could guarantee him top six minutes. A means to an end. He is 27 this year too so too old because this team has not enough young players or prospect depth.

 

Just hearing Dhali saying there is a report out of Michigan that Pettersson doesn't want to re-sign here.

[BlakeQuinnAndEggs]

1 hour ago, 24K PureCool said:

That is the point here. They didn't clean up the mess. They added ontop of it. If this team is playing like this and they didn't give themselves a new albatross in Miller and to a lesser extend Boeser than I buy the argument they didn't have enough time.

I'm not convinced Miller is finished. Its just one season. Miller has been our best forward for the last 3 seasons prior. I still think he has lots in the tank.

 

Brock on the other hand has been steadily declining.

 

Brock isn't unmovable though, OEL is one of the largest anchors in the whole league.

[Strawbone]

1 hour ago, Fanuck said:

Here's my thoughts on current management:

 

-said the team needs more structure and discipline and they'd be fine  -  absolutely nothing changed.

 

-said this team lacks picks/prospects in the organization then traded a 2nd for a fringe NHL'er.

 

-said they didn't have enough high end young defenceman in the organization and then drafted another winger

 

-said they wanted to get cap flexibility - the re-signed Boeser and gave JTM an untradeable career-defining contract.

 

-said they needed to address the defence last offseason and came back with the exact same group expecting different results 

 

-acknowledged they needed to improve the PK yet we sit dead last in the league in this area 

 

-publicly went on record saying if things didn't turn around 'hard decisions' would need to be made - then they sent a couple peripheral guys to the AHL.

 

-backed themselves into a corner with their Captain who's having a career season and is unlikely to be re-signed leaving a potential gaping hole in the lineup 

 

Needless to say, my confidence in this current management group is not high. 

Man, those are all good points, and when you list it out like that, it's a depressing read.

[RolexSub]

Our game plan from management is to do nothing this season so we can tank and get Bedard!!!! 

 

We are the top 5 worse team right now. 

[Fanuck]

9 minutes ago, RolexSub said:

Our game plan from management is to do nothing this season so we can tank and get Bedard!!!!

Can't tell if you're serious or not, but if that's their plan then they can't even do that right.

If you're gonna tank then do it right.  BoHo, Schenn, Kuz....anyone else of value goes also.

You build your team around a player like Bedard, you don't just add Bedard to a 'meh' squad and hope for the best. 

[RolexSub]

5 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

Can't tell if you're serious or not, but if that's their plan then they can't even do that right.

If you're gonna tank then do it right.  BoHo, Schenn, Kuz....anyone else of value goes also.

You build your team around a player like Bedard, you don't just add Bedard to a 'meh' squad and hope for the best. 

They are doing it right....we are tanking as we speak with Bo, Schenn, and Kuz values are all going up as we speak!!! 

 

Now Mgmt needs to make the right decision on the trades to see whats the best assets we can get back. 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

Saw the title of this thread, and this was the first thing that popped into mind. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Anyways, carry on.  

[flat land fish]

2 hours ago, Fanuck said:

Here's my thoughts on current management:

 

-said the team needs more structure and discipline and they'd be fine  -  absolutely nothing changed.

 

-said this team lacks picks/prospects in the organization then traded a 2nd for a fringe NHL'er.

 

-said they didn't have enough high end young defenceman in the organization and then drafted another winger

 

-said they wanted to get cap flexibility - the re-signed Boeser and gave JTM an untradeable career-defining contract.

 

-said they needed to address the defence last offseason and came back with the exact same group expecting different results 

 

-acknowledged they needed to improve the PK yet we sit dead last in the league in this area 

 

-publicly went on record saying if things didn't turn around 'hard decisions' would need to be made - then they sent a couple peripheral guys to the AHL.

 

-backed themselves into a corner with their Captain who's having a career season and is unlikely to be re-signed leaving a potential gaping hole in the lineup 

 

Needless to say, my confidence in this current management group is not high. 

Add Mikheyev signing when we had plethora of wingers other weaknesses and used up what little cap space we had to resign our captain.

[thrago]

I find JR and PA very unlikeable, so the fact they are also incompetent, puts the final nail in the coffin for me.  JB was also incompetent but at least he was likeable, and I cheered for him.  I'm looking forward to our next management group. 

[DrJockitch]

In many ways, just a tough spot they were put in by Benning but they have compounded it.
‘The market was particularly sensitive to losing valuable assets for nothing after the debacle that Benning created. Ultimately they didn’t lose traditional assets for nothing which was a good thing but they also overvalued what they had and further paralyzed themselves by not being able to move anything of significance out.  I wonder if old school guy like JR just doesn’t value the asset that cap space is well.
When faced with having to correct their mistakes they had to walk down the Benning path and start auctioning off pics and prospects for cap space.

‘They got greedy on Miller and then he came back with a surprisingly low number.  So they signed and probably still hoped to trade or even more confusingly thought he was a centre. I think this was a mistake overall, I have never been that enamoured with him even last year.
They probably assumed they could move money and that Bo would come in lower. When they weren’t able to move money Bo got really hot and the team still was awful so now we are probably needing to trade him or take a bath and pay to get rid of Brock or another big contract. 
Brock is a player made for what the league used to be or a team that plays puck position game. Again they signed him to a reasonable contract considering the situation Benning left them in. Again I think they were concerned about the look of loosing an asset for nothing or how it would look to cut him loose right after his dad died. 

I think you can build a championship calibre team around EP and QH but as structured this isn’t close to it.
‘I have said this every year since he got here, if spending any assets the return NEEDS to be a partner for Quinn. Doesn’t matter what the asset is, cap space, Bo, draft pics or prospects, what the return NEEDS to be is a potential partner for Quinn. We need to add about 5 young RHD to the system and eject a couple that are here.  An elite prospect to play with Q is priority number one. I have said this every year and the response has always been the same, more wingers or even more confusingly a trade for a  broken down LHD that needs to play the same role as Q and has a massive contract for a lot of years. 
Unfortunately the only way this group becomes championship calibre is by getting into the high end of a few more drafts ideally while adding draft pics and prospects, not dumping them for developed C-level prospects. 
 

To not be completely negative, the new group has done wonders with Abby. I like to see that the road to Vancouver is starting through Abbotsford. 
UFA Acquisitions have mostly been good. Aman is found money, Kuzmenko has been better than advertised, Joshua is a good add for 4th line, Mik is quality but a luxury we could not afford, Lazar is Meh.  The Bear trade was good value. Didn’t like the rest of the trades but these are minor pieces. 

‘They inherited a mess and have made enough minor mistakes that the mess looks worse. Doesn’t help that time after time we are getting negative press from the Aquillini story in camp, Rachel Dorrie, scratching Brock on hockey fights cancer night, the constant media barrage of JR saying he doesn’t like the coaching and wants to tear up the team, the very public nature that trade negotiations for JTM, Brock and Bo seem to have taken and Now Hughes talking about how Pearson has been mismanaged.  The management and ownership look awful this year for a lot of reasons but mainly because they have functioned almost exactly as Benning did but with many more public mistakes. 

[McBackup]

I didn’t jump on the hype train when they were making these hires, and while the verdict isn’t quite in yet, I’m feeling vindicated so far. The only one I’m still somewhat high on is Castonguay, but that’s largely because of her role in cap management. I don’t know how much say she had in the actual contracts signed so far, because if she did that doesn’t bode well so far either.

[Dr. Crossbar]

After eight years of Benning and company, I really welcomed change, inclusion, and the experience. I was excited for change, supportive early, but did see red flags, which I pointed out numerous times.

 

Albeit it was really early last March to May when those red flags jumped out at me. Still, just because it was early didn't mean those red flags were invisible.

 

I'm more skeptical of new management this time around because we've heard a lot of similar talk and talking points from the previous regime - speed, skill, younger, need to address defense, be hard to play against,  need to find young hidden gems in free agency, need to have more patience, blah, blah, etc, etc ...

 

This fanbase deserves results sooner than later - especially with a retool - and after eight years of Benning, the runway should be shorter.

 

I'd like to see them be much more precise with a plan and get way more aggressive in their approach. It just seems like they're way too complacent after saying a lot of the right things. Even with Rutherford's most recent comments yesterday, not making rash moves, etc, we've heard it all before.

 

We need much more competence through action from management. Allvin really needs to find a way to be honest with this fanbase rather than cagey and elusive. That's not smart at this stage given simmering fan frustration. If he's honest and upfront, that at least builds trust and understanding even if we don't like what he's saying. 

 

I posted this back in May of last year. My deal with the new regime - especially early - has always been this:

 

After seven years of the previous regime, investing in the necessary patience for change to take hold, it's just really, REALLY difficult to just say ... oh yeah, cool, here's another seven years.

 

Me, personally ... I just wish JR and Allvin would acknowledge that Canucks fans HAVE been patient for a long time, and what they're asking requires even more.

 

It just seems to me, they've rolled into town with a more direct approach - which I don't mind at all and welcome - but they're assuming or expecting fans to have the same long-leash patience that fans gave Benning and Co..  Imo, as I've said before, they didn't read the room properly.

 

I'm 100% behind the new management but also think there should be some level of accountability or reassessment after a couple years to honestly look and see if things really are going in the right direction. I mean, if we're not making the playoffs in a couple years from now ... you gotta say, hey, WTF? 

 

This is where things went awry with Benning right from the start. He was basically given a free pass for the duration of the Sedins contracts and all the NTCs. There really wasn't more accountability until it was his team ... four years into it all. 

 

When JR gives a timeline of two to three years to see the beginning of forward progress, that's reasonable after what fans have endured. 

 

I'm not saying we need to be the best team in the league but we should see two to three years of forward movement with results, positioning us better for the future.

 

Two years from now, someone's gotta say, OK, where are we? Have we achieved our goals?

 

I still stand by this now. We're now one year in the can. It's interesting to note that this year's draft position could very well save management's butt, so we'll see. 

 

[R3aL]

3 hours ago, 24K PureCool said:

We need to clean house again and hire someone who ain't so keen on nepotism hires. 

 

This management is as worse or just plain worse than Jim Benning. 

Could very well be

 

but im of the mind where I would love to give Gillis a second crack at it here.

 

i would have also loved to know what lindens plan was and probably would have liked that route over what we ended up doing but it is what it is.

 

im not very confident in JR though at all and I’m not sure how to Judge Alvin yet
 

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, R3aL said:

Could very well be

 

but im of the mind where I would love to give Gillis a second crack at it here.

 

i would have also loved to know what lindens plan was and probably would have liked that route over what we ended up doing but it is what it is.

 

im not very confident in JR though at all and I’m not sure how to Judge Alvin yet
 

I'd prefer not to hire someone who is clearly not qualified to have any involvement in talent evaluation.  If he's being hired to take care of the business side with zero input into hockey ops, fine.  Otherwise, that idiot has already done more than enough damage.