Popular Post DeNiro Posted January 18 Popular Post Share Posted January 18 9 minutes ago, Kaös said: KEEP POLITICS OUT OF SPORTS AND OFF HERE PLZ. Human rights not politics. Supporting LGBTQ is not about politics. 2 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Gurn Posted January 18 Popular Post Share Posted January 18 Hypocrisy 'we shouldn't talk about this" stays in thread, and comments more. 3 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sharpshooter Posted January 18 Popular Post Share Posted January 18 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Dekey Pete said: Seems like a matter to be decided between him, his coach, and the team. If they are okay with it, then why is this even a story? Like everyone is saying, he's not coming out and speaking against the LBGTQ community. I'd be more concerned with the fact that he refused to warm up with his team, regardless of what colour his jersey is, but since his coach and team are okay with it then there's no reason why anyone else should be bothered. Overblown story designed to elicit an overblown response, as is the norm these days. This has to stop. The thing is that he’s choosing to be non-inclusive in a sport and country that supports inclusivity. By refusing to participate, it’s an act of non-inclusivity, which is and has been used to foster hate against those that are different. Would we tolerate players if they didn’t want to play with African-Canadians/Americans? Would we tolerate players who refused to play with a female player, should they enter the League again? Would we tolerate players who refuse to play with Muslim players? Provorov could have played in his regular uniform. Seems like he wanted to make a statement. He didn’t want to warmup with anyone that was being inclusive of those that he doesn’t support based on their sexual orientation. Edited January 18 by Sharpshooter 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 9 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said: Speaking as a visible minority. I much prefer the racism I can see vs the racism I can't. He'd be a fraud if the put the jersey on and participated in the skate if he didn't believe in the cause. He could have put on his regular sweater and warmed up with his team. Appears he wanted to make an overt statement while hiding behind his religion. Edited January 18 by Sharpshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DeNiro said: Except it’s not a religious thing it’s a societal thing. There are many different versions of the Catholic Church. Some accept gay people and some are intolerant and hateful towards them. In Russia they are of the second kind. It’s no different than criticizing an Islamic person from a country that jails and kills women for wanting equal rights. People are standing up for human rights, which him and his church is obviously against. And before anyone says that’s extreme he’s not killing anyone, gay people are being jailed and killed in Russia in the name of religion. People should be criticizing anyone who doesn’t speak out against that. It's a societal thing to you and me. It's a religious freedom thing to him. Neither side is right nor wrong. The rest of your post details some rather extreme scenarios. So I'll list one too. The case of Mahsa Amini in Iran 'wear your hijab properly or they'll be severe consequences' in her case the consequence was death. ..... Provorov 'wear this Pride jersey' or they'll be consequences'. Both should have the right to live their life as they choose. Free of persecution. Edited January 18 by nuckin_futz 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GB5 Posted January 18 Popular Post Share Posted January 18 I think it was Voltaire who said, "I may not agree with what you are saying but I will fight for your right to say it". Right or wrong Provorov was not promoting hate and I disagree with the op's title that this was and "anti gay demonstration". Healthy dialog and discussion unfortunately has fallen by the wayside via fear and intimidation these days. It is OK to talk about these issues rather than just forcing them. Forcing seems to only lead to division and can never result in unity. 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinatcc Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) From what I gather Ivan Provorov is a nut. Having said that it's his choice to be a nut or not. I have enough family and friends who share some crazy views (i.e they like Putin, Covid was planned to control the population, supporting far right leaders etc. ) to realize there will always be people like that. Edited January 18 by iinatcc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 A thing about the whole religion thig that really really gets to me. God/Allah/Thor/Zeus: All powerful beings. Creator of all things. Creator of all people. Seems to me if God/Allah/Thor/Crom whoever/ whatever else had a problem with gay folk- HE/SHE/IT would not create gay people. is it all just away of being an arsehole to people the religious don't like.? Be it brown folk, protestants/ catholics/jews or gay people. looks like it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 4 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: He could have put on his regular sweater and warmed up with his team. Appears he wanted to make an overt statement while hiding behind his religion. That's exactly as I said below. Take the skate in your game jersey and don't hide in the dressing room like a wimp. If you believe in your cause, believe in it 100% and be prepared to defend it. 47 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said: He should have taken the pre game skate in his Flyers game jersey and not hid in the dressing room. His right to believe whatever he wants but to hide in the dressing room in weak. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 11 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said: Speaking as a visible minority. I much prefer the racism I can see vs the racism I can't. He'd be a fraud if the put the jersey on and participated in the skate if he didn't believe in the cause. I think the racism you can’t see is/can be just as injurious to your life, liberty and the security of your person. That’s how veiled racism worked for centuries against visible minorities through religious and legislation. Intolerance whether seen or unseen is still a destructive force. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanuck Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 46 minutes ago, DeNiro said: I don’t think anyones arguing that he should be forced to wear it, that’s obviously his choice. There’s also nothing in the CBA that allows them to punish him for doing it. However the same freedom that he’s been given is not being given to people in Russia. So I hope he appreciates that. And he should also appreciate that people have that same freedom to criticize him for that decision. Just like the Catholic Church here should be open to criticism for protecting pedophiles, the Russian Orthodox Church and people that support it should be open to criticism for their treatment of gay people. It might be his choice, but there is actually a rule in the CBA that say all players must wear the same uniforms (not exactly sure if that applies specifically to warm-up, but why wouldn't it? I've literally never seen a player wear a different uniform than his teammates ever in the modern era of hockey during warm-up) and the punishment if he refused to wear it would be that he didn't play and didn't get paid for refusing to wear it. What would be interesting is if the NHL decided to put a patch on ALL team jersey's that had a pride flag for example for a day or week or a month - then would he refuse to wear his team jersey and then subsequently get disciplined/punished for that? 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristoffWixenschon Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 2 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: The thing is that he’s choosing to be non-inclusive in a sport and country that supports inclusivity. By refusing to participate, it’s an act of inclusivity, which is and has been used to foster hate against those that are different. Would we tolerate players if they didn’t want to play with African-Canadians/Americans? Would we tolerate players who refused to play with a female player, should they enter the League again? Would we tolerate players who refuse to play with Muslim players? Provorov could have played in his regular uniform. Seems like he wanted to make a statement. He didn’t want to warmup with anyone that was being inclusive of those that he doesn’t support based on their sexual orientation. He's choosing to exercise his right of free expression in a sport and country that supports free expression. He has a garbage perspective but we can't force opinions on people. He has the right to refuse, even if I don't agree with him. That's what makes the "west" truly free. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DeNiro Posted January 18 Popular Post Share Posted January 18 3 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said: It's a societal thing to you and me. It's a religious freedom thing to him. Neither side is right nor wrong. The rest of your post details some rather extreme scenarios. So I'll list one too. The case of Mahsa Amini in Iran 'wear your hijab properly or they'll be severe consequences' in her case the consequence was death. ..... Provorov 'wear this Pride jersey' or they'll be consequences'. Both should have the right to live their life as they choose. Free of persecution. He’s being criticized not threatened to be killled… talk about extreme. People are expressing their freedoms by criticizing him. That’s freedom here too last time I checked. Why do you seem to have a problem with that freedom and not the freedom of religion? And again it’s not a religious thing as I said. Society in Russia has shaped religion to be anti homosexual. Hate is created by people not by god or religious texts. 1 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 minute ago, Fanuck said: It might be his choice, but there is actually a rule in the CBA that say all players must wear the same uniforms (not exactly sure if that applies specifically to warm-up, but why wouldn't it? I've literally never seen a player wear a different uniform than his teammates ever in the modern era of hockey during warm-up) and the punishment if he refused to wear it would be that he didn't play and didn't get paid for refusing to wear it. What would be interesting is if the NHL decided to put a patch on ALL team jersey's that had a pride flag for example for a day or week or a month - then would he refuse to wear his team jersey and then subsequently get disciplined/punished for that? I’d love to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristoffWixenschon Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 9 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: He could have put on his regular sweater and warmed up with his team. Appears he wanted to make an overt statement while hiding behind his religion. I wonder if team management preferred that he didn't attend, rather than showing up and being a very visual symbol of non-support for LGBT awareness. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Strawbone Posted January 18 Popular Post Share Posted January 18 1 minute ago, nuckin_futz said: It's a societal thing to you and me. It's a religious freedom thing to him. Neither side is right nor wrong. The rest of your post details some rather extreme scenarios. So I'll list one too. The case of Mahsa Amini in Iran 'wear your hijab properly or they'll be severe consequences' in her case the consequence was death. ..... Provorov 'wear this Pride jersey' or they'll be consequences. Both should have the right to live their life as they choose. Free of persecution. There's a big difference. Religion is an arbitrary choice. There are hundreds of conflicting religions in the world, and clearly they are not all right, and it really just depends on where you are born and what your parents believe. There are many verifiable falsehoods at the core of most religions. If I don't respect someone for their outdated and hurtful religious beliefs, then I think that's the right thing to do, and it's not discrimination. Religions get far too much respect and protection from the law in many countries. Just because you think a 2000 year old book holds all the answers when it clearly doesn't, does not mean you should be protected from the consequences of believing those things. Being gay is in most cases, by all accounts, not a choice, and should never be discriminated against. It's no different than being a woman or black or indigenous. We're slowly making progress in recognizing that all of these groups need to be treated with equal respect, but it's taking longer for some people to get the memo than others. 1 5 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BabychStache Posted January 18 Popular Post Share Posted January 18 Flyers could have avoided all of this by saying he had the “Scoots” during warmup. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ghostsof1915 Posted January 18 Popular Post Share Posted January 18 Remember this is a society that goes nuts when it's told to wear a strip of cloth over your face. Even if it's for your own good. 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 minute ago, DeNiro said: He’s being criticized not threatened to be killled… talk about extreme. People are expressing their freedoms by criticizing him. That’s freedom here too last time I checked. Why do you seem to have a problem with that freedom and not the freedom of religion? And again it’s not a religious thing as I said. Society in Russia has shaped religion to be anti homosexual. Hate is created by people not by god or religious texts. I don't have a problem with him being criticized. I have been critical of him in this very thread for hiding in the dressing room and then barely addressing his stance. Hate is often enabled by religious texts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 minute ago, KristoffWixenschon said: He's choosing to exercise his right of free expression in a sport and country that supports free expression. He has a garbage perspective but we can't force opinions on people. He has the right to refuse, even if I don't agree with him. That's what makes the "west" truly free. I don’t think he should be forced to do anything either. And I agree. Garbage perspective by him and imo his religion. He has the right to refuse to practice of course. He also bears the the persona responsibility of dealing with the backlash of making a willful choice for tacitly supporting non-inclusivity. If he’s ok with that, then great. May he reap what he and his religiosity sows. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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