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Management On Trades, TDL and Team Revision Fast "Build" if They (Will) Retain

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ToTellTheTruth

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1 hour ago, ToTellTheTruth said:

Not Miller, Schneider?

 

Jirieck, they already have 8 NHL defencemen under 26 yrs old, 4 dmen 22 to 24. 

 

One thing they can't wait on is a veteran center that is winning FO's, scoring 30 goals a year and stays healthy. The ages also work too, JG is 29, Horvat 29.

 

Ya, I thought of Bailey too but I think he is too important in the room. Lamer isn't shy about trading for hungry vets and their defence is deep too. There was some friction in the Dobson negotiations and I think the Romanov trade before the Miller stuff got out was to either have him replace Dobson or as the trade chip for the Canucks because that signing was really out of left field. That and Lamer likes to have cap certainty so a GM that might have wanted to talk to Miller's agent first or they already did. That trade was thought to be all but done when it disappeared.

 

Columbus are in the middle of a rebuild.  Davidson, their president of hockey operations and boss to Kekaleinen was just talking about how it's a process and how the injuries this season has set them back as it has slowed the development of the team as a whole.  They were hoping to be in the hunt late in the season - ie they aren't even yet at the stage of saying make the playoffs.  They are still some years away from being competitive.  Btw last off-season Kekaleinen assured that he's not trading futures for win now players.  Gaudreau was more of an opportunity signing similar to when NYR signed Panarin in free agency early in their rebuild.  


CBJ has drafted for need in the past and Jiricek feels like a pick for need.  

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7 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said:

I said 25 games because I guessed that's approx. the amount of games after the trade deadline. If you move an OEL or Myers or both....you are only really having to live without a direct replacement until the end of the season...you would then bring up young guys or the Burroughs and Stillmans of the world until seasons end...it really doesn't matter at that point.. Then, you have an offseason to work on the back end providing you have some cap space now and maybe got some assets back from other trades. My main point is and was if we are moving guys at the deadline, this year doesn't matter. You start fixing in the off season and looking at next year, starts with the draft and free agency.  None of this happens without cap space to do so.

Im with you until the offseason part. 

Work on the back end with what assets? 

We would have needed to give up assets to get rid of OEL Boeser and Myers. 

All we would be left with is cap space. 

How do you get 2 legit top 4 D men with just cap space? Please don't say ufa because that's what caused all of this mess starting with LE. We then had to pay Arizona to get rid of him Roussel and Beagle. 

Now we need to pay to get rid of OEL. 

Im done trying to use cap space to fix this team. 

Cap space should be used to retain your young stars like Petey, Hughes, even Kuz. 

It should be used to fill out your depth roster

It should not be used to fix huge holes like 2 top 4 D spots or we will likely be looomingtat another buyout in 3/4 years

 

 

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20 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Ok we got the moving ppl out part. 

How do you bring in quality top 4 blue line players when you're essentially trading /giving away our garbage (a little harsh) and have no assets to work with to bring in new talent? 

If it's getting crushed 25 games. Perfect I'm sold. 25 games is nothing. 

How do you fix this after 25 games though? 

How is it addition by subtraction? 

OEL and Myers aren't playing up to their respective cap hits. But they are far better than anyone else on our defence (minus Hughes) 

How do you get rid of those 2 and get better d men? 

 

Getting quality top 4 D men isn't easy or we would have done it by now. 

 

The team must trade the few good assets, the minus, for very young defencemen with a very good trajectory. Guys on a team that already have many young dmen already on the roster, teams that already have contracts signed for term, teams with too many of one type of player like left or right handed yet or teams that need to win now. Again I come around to Columbus the number of RHD they have already under 25 is a GM's dream. Three under contract for years yet, so many they are rumoured to be willing to move last year's 3rd highest scoring dman because they have 8 more RHD in the system under 24 yrs old. But they have very little in the way of veteran centers or 30 goal scoring forwards.

 

Columbus has solid goaltending, uber deep defence but lack scoring and FO winning centers they will have a projected cap space of 20 million and only 3 players needing new contracts. A perfect fit even to the part of not having Horvat coming back to haunt the team or trading within the division.

 

It could be a win win trade SO it will never happen

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Just now, ToTellTheTruth said:

The team must trade the few good assets, the minus, for very young defencemen with a very good trajectory. Guys on a team that already have many young dmen already on the roster, teams that already have contracts signed for term, teams with too many of one type of player like left or right handed yet or teams that need to win now. Again I come around to Columbus the number of RHD they have already under 25 is a GM's dream. Three under contract for years yet, so many they are rumoured to be willing to move last year's 3rd highest scoring dman because they have 8 more RHD in the system under 24 yrs old. But they have very little in the way of veteran centers or 30 goal scoring forwards. Solid goaltending, uber deep defence but lack scoring and FO wining centers with a projected cap space of 20 million and only 3 players needing new contracts. A perfect fit even to the part of not having Horvat coming back to haunt the team or trading within the division. It could be a win win trade SO it will never happen

That sounds great but Horvat will not re-sign in colombus so I can't see them paying that for a rental. 

On the other hand, Miller is locked for 7 years under a fair contract (doesn't have the extra premium colombus pays (i. E. Gaudreau) to get talent. As vilified as management may become , Columbus would be a perfect destination for Miller. 

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16 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said:

I said 25 games because I guessed that's approx. the amount of games after the trade deadline. If you move an OEL or Myers or both....you are only really having to live without a direct replacement until the end of the season...you would then bring up young guys or the Burroughs and Stillmans of the world until seasons end...it really doesn't matter at that point.. Then, you have an offseason to work on the back end providing you have some cap space now and maybe got some assets back from other trades. My main point is and was if we are moving guys at the deadline, this year doesn't matter. You start fixing in the off season and looking at next year, starts with the draft and free agency.  None of this happens without cap space to do so.

OEL and Myers seem to carry much of the blame but the one player that has hurt the team more than Demko's injury is Pearson's absence. 

 

They should not wait for the TDL especially Horvat now because all the world now knows that the Canucks HAVE to trade him so adding retention right now adds the number of suitors.

They could do an end around and retain and trade Miller though. 

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10 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Im with you until the offseason part. 

Work on the back end with what assets? 

We would have needed to give up assets to get rid of OEL Boeser and Myers. 

All we would be left with is cap space. 

How do you get 2 legit top 4 D men with just cap space? Please don't say ufa because that's what caused all of this mess starting with LE. We then had to pay Arizona to get rid of him Roussel and Beagle. 

Now we need to pay to get rid of OEL. 

Im done trying to use cap space to fix this team. 

Cap space should be used to retain your young stars like Petey, Hughes, even Kuz. 

It should be used to fill out your depth roster

It should not be used to fix huge holes like 2 top 4 D spots or we will likely be looomingtat another buyout in 3/4 years

 

 

 

Work on the back end with what assets? If we trade Bo, he should bring a 1st, and a young Dman/really good prospect as well. minimum 2 assets right there.

We would have needed to give up assets to get rid of OEL Boeser and Myers. Not necessarily, likelihood is we get rid of 1. Myers likely, and retaining some salary is more likely IMO.

All we would be left with is cap space. 

How do you get 2 legit top 4 D men with just cap space? Please don't say ufa because that's what caused all of this mess starting with LE. We then had to pay Arizona to get rid of him Roussel and Beagle. - Getting two legit top dmen probably isn't going to happen all in one off season, that's why this blueline isn't quick fix. 

Now we need to pay to get rid of OEL. 

Im done trying to use cap space to fix this team.  - You HAVE to have cap space to fix a team...or a $hit ton of assets. This team has neither, again why it won't be a quick fix. 

Cap space should be used to retain your young stars like Petey, Hughes, even Kuz.  Yes, nobody is saying otherwise. Hughes is signed until 2027 - long time from now the cap situation will look different when that becomes relevant 4 years from now.

It should be used to fill out your depth roster - Yes, much of that cap should be used for that, most of this core is under contract for the next few years though.

It should not be used to fix huge holes like 2 top 4 D spots or we will likely be looomingtat another buyout in 3/4 years

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1 hour ago, CanucksJay said:

Do we need to retain on Pearson if there is a high probability he'll be going on LTIR? 

If he's on LTIR for another season, then we just leave it.  Not ideal, but we wouldn't be able to move him anyways if that were the case.

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I don't think the 3 retention slots restriction is too bad for the Canucks.

 

For this season, Bo is the most likely to have some retention if that helps increase his contract value.  If the Canucks can find a suitor for Boeser, then he can be retained too. I doubt they can trade any of Myers, Pearson, Poolman, etc. to clear space this year for various reasons. There's no other retention on the books right now, just dead cap (as far as I'm aware).

 

Next contract year starting 1 July (2023-2024) they would have 3 retention slots available. Pearson may still not be healthy at that point so I doubt they can trade him. So again it might just be Boeser and Myers. Garland is an option too but I wonder if he may be in a better favored position now that he's back with Tocchet. If OEL's no move is still in effect, then he seems like an unlikely candidate to be dealt anyway. If they can clear an appreciable amount of Boeser's and Myer's cap hits and Poolman and Pearson end up on LTIR, then that might help alleviate a lot of the Canucks' cap concerns and would not take up all retention slots.

 

Ultimately the Canucks cap issues will likely depend on whether Miller can play C because if he can't AND they can't re-sign Bo (which is very likely), then they have WAY too much cap allocated to wingers and no one in the system to play C.

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4 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

That sounds great but Horvat will not re-sign in colombus so I can't see them paying that for a rental. 

On the other hand, Miller is locked for 7 years under a fair contract (doesn't have the extra premium colombus pays (i. E. Gaudreau) to get talent. As vilified as management may become , Columbus would be a perfect destination for Miller. 

Why not? Is there somewhere he will sign? Not Vancouver but where?

 

Yes a perfect fit for Miller with small retention to pry a good large RHD out of them or retain and trade to Winnipeg.

 

Why be worried about the team's reputation now after the last 9 years of chaos. And Miller is from right around Columbus.

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10 minutes ago, ToTellTheTruth said:

When teams trade a player, they can retain, or keep, some of the players' salary and cap hit.  The team keeps a % of both the cap hit and salary for the remainder of the contract. Miller only has one contract right now, the one he is playing under, his next contract isn't in effect until September. So they can retain 50% of the current contract without any of the contract not "legal" or in effect yet.

 

Essentially it isn't about any one particular trade just that trades can happen using retention. Retention adds value to trades. Retention doesn't require having empty cap space just not taking back more than retained.

 

It can be done for 3 trades until those contracts expire.

Canucks can retain up to $12.3 million

 

IF they retained 12.3 million that would mean they opened up 12.3 million in empty cap space to be used for new players. 

You may be right. The fact is, we just don’t know. This scenario has never been tested.

 

And, unfortunately, the CBA doesn’t state anything explicitly either way, when it comes to retaining salary on a player traded with 2 SPCs already signed. I’ve also never come across a reference or reputable piece of journalism that clearly explains the rules around a retained salary transaction involving a player with a signed extension that has yet to come into effect.

 

I’m sure the league has a rule, internally, anyway, and likely this has been shared with all the teams. But until such a trade actually happens, we won’t really know (publicly) how it all works.

 

I’ve seen both sides argued. More often, however, I’ve seen people take the view that, since both contracts are being traded with the player, salary retention applies to both.
 

That said, the most common answer I’ve been given on this question is a simple “I don’t know.” 

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10 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said:

 

Work on the back end with what assets? If we trade Bo, he should bring a 1st, and a young Dman/really good prospect as well. minimum 2 assets right there.

We would have needed to give up assets to get rid of OEL Boeser and Myers. Not necessarily, likelihood is we get rid of 1. Myers likely, and retaining some salary is more likely IMO.

All we would be left with is cap space. 

How do you get 2 legit top 4 D men with just cap space? Please don't say ufa because that's what caused all of this mess starting with LE. We then had to pay Arizona to get rid of him Roussel and Beagle. - Getting two legit top dmen probably isn't going to happen all in one off season, that's why this blueline isn't quick fix. 

Now we need to pay to get rid of OEL. 

Im done trying to use cap space to fix this team.  - You HAVE to have cap space to fix a team...or a $hit ton of assets. This team has neither, again why it won't be a quick fix. 

Cap space should be used to retain your young stars like Petey, Hughes, even Kuz.  Yes, nobody is saying otherwise. Hughes is signed until 2027 - long time from now the cap situation will look different when that becomes relevant 4 years from now.

It should be used to fill out your depth roster - Yes, much of that cap should be used for that, most of this core is under contract for the next few years though.

It should not be used to fix huge holes like 2 top 4 D spots or we will likely be looomingtat another buyout in 3/4 years

I like what you are saying but this team doesn't have a clear direction 

 

If Bo can get a 1st and a really good d prospect, chances are, that D prospect won't be useful for at least 2-3 years. The 1st rounder might take even longer

 

So then for the next 2 years at least, we need to field some resemblance of an nhl D corps. 

So then we sign some 3-5 Mil ufas to play defence. 

 

We get pretty much the same result as myers and OEL because they are playing like 3-5m d men but getting paid 6 and 7m +

 

So the on ice product remains the same or worse (because we lost Horvat) 

We then waste 2 prime years of Kuzmenko 

We waste 2-3 prime years of Miller

 

Like why do we have these guys if we know we are going to suck for the foreseeable future? 

 

Why didn't we sell them as well and just build around Petey and Hughes? 

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, ToTellTheTruth said:

Why not? Is there somewhere he will sign? Not Vancouver but where?

 

Yes a perfect fit for Miller with small retention to pry a good large RHD out of them or retain and trade to Winnipeg.

 

Why be worried about the team's reputation now after the last 9 years of chaos. And Miller is from right around Columbus.

Im with you. Hell I'll even go buy a Miller Blue jackets jersey to celebrate. 

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1 minute ago, CanucksJay said:

Im with you. Hell I'll even go buy a Miller Blue jackets jersey to celebrate. 

Wouldn't that actually be funny though? 

Show up at the next canucks game. I'll wear a Miller Blue Jackets jersey and  you wear a Brock Philly jersey and we grab seats behind the bench

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4 hours ago, Maginator said:

Where's the source?

 

Page 4 and there's nothing.

Best we got was a Dhaliwal said so, but I'm confused, I thought we hates the media?

 

It's an interesting discussion point, but I haven't seen anything that suggests they actually said that. I'd be totally cool with them retaining to maximize value. This team desperately needs to win a bunch of transactions coming up if we want this re-tool to be successful.

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