2 year Re-Tool (Is it possible?)

[Devron]

Absolutely. This is actually the only time it’s made sense to re-tool. We should have did a full rebuild a long time ago. It did not make sense to re-tool back then.

 

You don’t rebuild with Pettersson, Hughes, Demko. I still have faith in Podz and Hogz. 
 

The ground work has started. It has been good that we are tanking this year. Gives us a bit of a reset 

[EdgarM]

2 minutes ago, Devron said:

Absolutely. This is actually the only time it’s made sense to re-tool. We should have did a full rebuild a long time ago. It did not make sense to re-tool back then.

 

You don’t rebuild with Pettersson, Hughes, Demko. I still have faith in Podz and Hogz. 
 

The ground work has started. It has been good that we are tanking this year. Gives us a bit of a reset 

I agree but I also think we tried to take short cuts in the past and we neglected the team in the drafting and player development part. I think the minor league team needs to be totally on board as well. There needs to be a game plan from start to finish.

In cutting corners, we see what we got in return in a team not playing like a "team" and the "character" of the current players is suspect.

I am looking forward to see how things progress in the next couple of years,

[CanucksJay]

16 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I think a 2 year retool is possible if we can shed the line up to its bear bones as you indicated above. This and get a good pick next year. 

Then the job will be to fill those ? positions with high character, big bodied players similar to what Seattle and Vegas have. Man I wish we could have acquired Tuch when he was available.

The big ask will be to find 2 top 4 d's who can play with Hughes and OEL. These will be key in any kind of success. I would hope that whatever we get for our trades we can at least get one of these guys. 

I wouldn't expect to contend in 2 years but at least start to get experience playing in the playoffs every year in that time. 

With the new direction of having more consistent, structured play, I suspect in 2 years this will be common place and this team will be competing even without a complete Cup contending line up in place.

I hope so. 

As @Ghostsof1915suggested, signing Livingstone would be huge. He fits the age group / timeline of what management wants to do which is get NHL ready prospects in the Horvat trade. We got Tanev for free. This could be like a repeat of that. And if we could get a great young RD back for Horvat, we've pretty much fixed the D side. 

 

I'm worried because so many things have to go right. 

 

I agree. Imagine we had Tuch instead of Virtanen.... Makes me sick. 

 

[Devron]

2 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I agree but I also think we tried to take short cuts in the past and we neglected the team in the drafting and player development part. I think the minor league team needs to be totally on board as well. There needs to be a game plan from start to finish.

In cutting corners, we see what we got in return in a team not playing like a "team" and the "character" of the current players is suspect.

I am looking forward to see how things progress in the next couple of years,

Yup. I don’t wanna make it sound like it will be easy but it can be done. Where in the past it was basically impossible to re-tool but they tried anyways.

 

The minor league actually looks legit right now which I’ve never seen before as long as I’ve been a Canucks fan. So that’s looking like a huge step forward for us. There has been mistakes with the management group already but also some home runs. The moves moving forward are crucial if they are to pull this off 

[DSVII]

A retool is such a small bullseye that the room for error is very small. If we had Sakic or Yzerman maybe, but I don't see it happening. 

 

What's the ceiling of a retool anyway? out in the 1st round?

 

 

 

[CanucksJay]

3 minutes ago, Devron said:

Yup. I don’t wanna make it sound like it will be easy but it can be done. Where in the past it was basically impossible to re-tool but they tried anyways.

 

The minor league actually looks legit right now which I’ve never seen before as long as I’ve been a Canucks fan. So that’s looking like a huge step forward for us. There has been mistakes with the management group already but also some home runs. The moves moving forward are crucial if they are to pull this off 

Its pretty funny that when we tried to retool we hit miracles in Petey and Hughes. 

Imagine it was 2 other guys here instead

Wed be utterly hopeless at this point. 

[Devron]

1 minute ago, CanucksJay said:

Its pretty funny that when we tried to retool we hit miracles in Petey and Hughes. 

Imagine it was 2 other guys here instead

Wed be utterly hopeless at this point. 

Good point. Cody glass and Zadina 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Devron

[EdgarM]

4 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Its pretty funny that when we tried to retool we hit miracles in Petey and Hughes. 

Imagine it was 2 other guys here instead

Wed be utterly hopeless at this point. 

I think in having these two it gives us hope that a retool is possible. That and having Demko. Without these three, we would be looking at a total rebuild.

[jyu]

23 minutes ago, DSVII said:

A retool is such a small bullseye that the room for error is very small. If we had Sakic or Yzerman maybe, but I don't see it happening. 

 

What's the ceiling of a retool anyway? out in the 1st round?

 

 

 

Didnt Boston retool after 2013? 
 

The ceiling is a SCF if you see what they did as a retool. 

[Goalie Interference]

1 hour ago, CanucksJay said:

There's also the question of finding 2 defenders that are better than Myers and OEL. As much as we gripe about them, they are the top pairing on our team

This is a good point, and one that sometimes gets forgotten in the talk of rebuilding: we actually have to ice an NHL roster next season. It doesn't have to be good, but it can't be kids from the Abby. No sense spending to dump OEL and Myers when we won't be in a position to compete next year anyway. A year from now, with less time remaining on his contract, Myers will be a more attractive trade target for playoff-bound teams looking for blueline depth.

[Nuxfanabroad]

I've been strolling through this life(last 25 yrs especially) with a lotto 6 in my pocket - always play my kid's Bday #s. One dreams of the fun you'd have, folks you'd help, & stress you'd demolish, if ya just won the damned thing! What are the odds..1 in a million? Yet so MANY play this fantasy, weekly :^)

 

Now what are the odds of a disease or bad luck cutting one down, over a random 25 yr stretch? Don't ASK, & let's not talk about THAT! Don't think neg thoughts..keep walkin'..ohh Shyte! There's a black cat near the sidewalk!

 

It's best to simply enjoy the stroll, whichever direction you're headed. Dreams are fine & dandy - but take pleasure in small things。There's a pretty large gap between hope & expectations. One of them can set the table for disappointment.

 

Then there's a very important question: Do you believe this league is run equally & honestly for each & every team? Good luck with that.

[DSVII]

22 minutes ago, jyu said:

Didnt Boston retool after 2013? 
 

The ceiling is a SCF if you see what they did as a retool. 

I think the caveat there is that it was with an established core that already won a cup. I love Petey, but Hughes and EP40 seem like a less tested foundation for a retool to work, and the habits of a contending team are simply not ingrained in the DNA of this group right now.

 

Believe me I want to be 110% wrong in this, I just dont see the path right now. Especially in a narrow 2 year window. The problems plaguing this team today have been a decade in the making.

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by DSVII

[jyu]

6 minutes ago, DSVII said:

I think the caveat there is that it was with an established core that already won a cup. I love Petey, but Hughes and EP40 seem like a less tested foundation for a retool to work, and the habits of a contending team are simply not ingrained in the DNA of this group right now.

 

Believe me I want to be 110% wrong in this, I just dont see the path right now. Especially in a narrow 2 year window. The problems plaguing this team today have been a decade in the making.

 

I see your point regarding having championship experience in the retool base being a distinction (Bergeron, Marchand, Krejici). And I agree this notion that we come out as a cup contender after a narrow 2 year retool window is ridiculous.

 

Like Boston did, we dig deep into the draft for the next 2-3 years while upgrading the roster via trades/signings. They got a 1RW and 1LD as well as few other roster players through the draft, without ever getting a top 5 pick. Even then, it took them until 2019 to reach the cup final with various signings and trades to upgrade the roster over time. So yeah, we are going to need time. I think 2-3 years to come out as a consistent playoff team is possible though. 

 

Finally about Petey. I look at Bergeron in 2014 and realize that he was probably more recognized as an elite 2 way center with I think two Selkes. But he was 29 whereas Petey is 24. And Petey brings offensive upside that Bergeron doesn't have so there is room for growth in both areas of his game. And even if we were to enter a full fledged rebuild, we might not get a player like Petey. Even the 1st overall doesn't get you such a player. 

 

I think the foundation is good, although yes, it is less tested and lacks a cup winning experience.

 

 

[EdgarM]

39 minutes ago, DSVII said:

I think the caveat there is that it was with an established core that already won a cup. I love Petey, but Hughes and EP40 seem like a less tested foundation for a retool to work, and the habits of a contending team are simply not ingrained in the DNA of this group right now.

 

Believe me I want to be 110% wrong in this, I just dont see the path right now. Especially in a narrow 2 year window. The problems plaguing this team today have been a decade in the making.

 

I think that is why it is so important to get this next step right. There are personnel on this team which stunts the growth of others and right now that looks like maybe Bo as the longest standing player who happens to be the Captain as well. 

Will younger players like Petey and Hughes grow, once they are no longer following the current regime?

That remains to be seen but I think changes have to be made to see if it does or not. What ever we have now obviously is not working so we have nothing to lose really.

I also think players like Schenn need to remain intact so that the foundation is there in order to build upon in the next couple of years.

[BCNeil]

Other teams have done it.  That doesn't mean we will, or that it's likely.  In 2 years we could have a roster with 75% new guys.  Its hard to predict, 

[Phil_314]

Year 1 (this year):

- Trade Miller to NYI for Ryan Pulock (they need scoring, we need defense => I made another proposal recently, can find that and read my explanation)

this year: net - $900k cap; next year and forward: net gain $1.85 mil/ season

- at TDL: Presuming Pat Kane gets moved and they sell pieces, see if they want to buy low on Boeser since he's still young enough to be a big piece on their rebuild at only 25, while we get Connor Murphy (3 yr. * $4.4 mil; net gain: $2.25 mil); alternatively, trade Boeser to Nashville to get an early pick (they're 25th in goals for in the league and their roster is playmakers and grinders) and trade that pick to Chicago for Murphy (net gain: $550k)

- (if the previous Boeser trade to Nashville doesn't happen) trade Connor Garland to Nashville for Colton Sissons+ (net gain: $2.1 mil) 
- Trade Schenn to highest bidder; if he wants to come back, great; if not, re-sign Ethan Bear and Travis Dermott (net loss: $2-3 mil)

- Trade Horvat to highest bidder (preferably to Carolina for package around Kotkaniemi; he's in his 20s and not really the scorer he was projected to be, though his faceoff % looks good and he's getting PK time; Horvat would be an upgrade behind Aho over both Jordan Staal + Stastny [both UFA]); net loss: $4.82 mil/ season due to JK's cap hit, but Horvat's likely getting $7-$9 mil per
Hopefully we gain picks from the Garland, Horvat and Schenn trades

Year 2:

- Hopefully Hoglander and Podkolzin have shown enough to warrant being top-9, if not top-6 F candidates after a year in Abbotsford; if not, sign UFA wingers

- Trade Tyler Myers and Tanner Pearson (if healthy) at TDL for best possible return, both pending UFAs (net gain: $9.25 mil)

- Trade Rathbone (I don't think he has a future here, when both our top-4 LD are offensive)

 

Roster (best case scenario; italic = hoping they work out in that role; "*" = current candidates, can be replaced):

Kuzmenko - Pettersson - Mikheyev

Hoglander - Kotkaniemi - Podkolzin 

Dries* - Sissons - Studnicka*

Joshua - Lazar/ Aman - Lockwood

 

Hughes - Pulock (all-round defender with big shot and shutdown game next to Hughes)
OEL - Murphy (Murphy's defensive game hopefully lets OEL roam more offensively and raise his value)

Dermott - Bear/ Schenn

Demko/ Martin

In short, winger and center depth may take a hit, but defensively we're much stronger with this D-core and these C's who play PK coming in, and perhaps by internal replacement Hoglander/ Podkolzin/ Klimovich?/ Lekkerimaki? could be the wingers that replace the pricey, ineffective ones we currently have.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Phil_314

[Toyotasfan]

Rutherford would actually have to make a trade for anything to actually happen, revolving door coaching isn’t going anywhere.

[IBatch]

Retain on Brock, Myers and Horvat.   Trade Schenn too.    Was Pearson but no point anymore.    Take it on the chin and plan for a re-boot next year.   Zero buyouts.  

 

Edit: And be amazing drafters.   That's what it's going to take in the end. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by IBatch

[VegasCanuck]

4 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

Alright CDC 

 

Say I'm Aquaman and you're the GM 

 

What is your best plan for a 2 year retool and setting us up to be a contender at this point? 

 

We just signed Kuz to a 2 year team friendly deal. 

 

What are the next moves? 

 

I'm a bit of a pessimist so it's hard to see how we are going to upgrade our blue line in the next 2 years with the remaining assets while dropping heavily in offense production. 

 

Remember, we should be emerging in 2 years like NJ or Seattle this year. 

 

Any bright ideas? 

Is this even possible? 

 

I've said a number of times, we have the talent level here to be a serious competitor, but we don't have the RIGHT talent here. We need a couple of trades to round out our lineup and increase our compete level. We are closer than people think, our problems are fixable, but as Rutherford said, the lineup does need major surgery to correct it, and it's complicated right now when there's only 5 or 6 teams who have cap space and about 25 teams trying to figure out how to make trades when no one has space.

[Fan since 82]

I think we've got some really good pieces that we could build a team around that might be able to take one or possibly two runs at the cup in the next 3 to 5 years. I don't think we're in a position to build a team that will be a contender for any length of time. As others have already said, we have very little in the way of prospects and no real organisational depth. Those couple of runs at the cup that I mention above could be easily derailed by just a couple of serious injuries to our really good pieces and then it would have all been for nothing. 

 

A mini rebuild of maybe two to three years where we can maybe get a few extra picks here or there and build up the prospect pool would be the best way to take advantage of the talent that we have in Demko, Petterson, and Hughes. We could possibly contend for five or six years while those guys are in their prime.