[DEBATE] JT Miller or Bo Horvat? Who you got?

[Ghostsof1915]

Trade both. But don't expect a huge haul from JT. Rumours of last year, are just that, rumours. The return might have been the Canucks asking price, and got shot down.

 

[FinchBird]

The only way it makes any sense to move Miller is if Canucks win the draft lotto!

[Maginator]

Bottom line is Miller can drive play and create chances whereas Bo cannot. 

 

Lots of right place right time goals for Bo and bumper shots on the PP.

 

Miller will come back to life with Tocchet.

[BPA]

Both.

 

We need the $$ for Petey and Bedard.

 

[jyu]

1 hour ago, combover said:

Trade em both 

 

 

if I had to keep one it would be the better more complete player so easily horvat.

 

 

 

 

 

Agree but on the flip side, if we are going to trade one, might as well  trade the player that will get you more return. 
 

We could end up having 3 NHL players from this trade while keeping Miller who is cheaper and brings scoring. 
 

I voted trade both. 

[CanucksJay]

1 hour ago, Slegr said:

Honestly, if Tocchet can have a system where Miller plays better defensively than what Bruce allowed, JT Miller is better dollars. He has better speed, is more offensively dynamic and had more pushback, as well as passion. Sure he get whiney at times, but I’d rather have someone who whines a bit and wears real passion on his sleeve than Bo Horvat who displays no passion whatsoever. Horvat has been overrated in terms of his two-way game - his best +\- year is a +3, and he’s played like 7 seasons. He’s not as naturally skilled, and while he did become a beast in the play-ins / playoffs, he hasn’t shown enough of that to warrant the contract that he got.

Agreed. 

A great 2 way player who isn't just a defensive specialist will still have good +- numbers because the stat is a direct measure of a player's line compared to the opposing line. 

Sure some defensive gaffes by his teammates may affect his numbers but when looking in the big picture, my guess is that the really good 2 way players have a good career +- stat. 

Horvat by the way is - 66 and his best ever was a +3 this year and last year. 

Someone like Bergeron my guess would be the other way like +70 ish

JT Miller is +25

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by CanucksJay

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

Hard to say, really.

Before this season, I would have said Miller has a slightly better chance at career longevity and maintaining his offensive production, just because I saw his scoring and playstyle over the coming years as less demanding and less likely to be impacted by age related decline, even despite him being 2 years older.
 

But Bo’s recent work on his shot and deflections has given him the ability to score more goals with less effort, compared to his previous years, so that, coupled with his faceoff utility (a skill that tends not to decline, and in some cases improves over the late-20s-30s), I think Horvat may now hold more value later into his career than I’d thought previously.

 

It’s a tossup. All I really know is that, like almost every player in the 27+ age group, they’re both highly unlikely to provide value equal to their longterm deals. Just how much “negative value” they become over the back halves of those extensions is really tough to predict (other than that I’d bet both of them end up being “bad contracts”).

 

TL:DR: I’m team “trade both.”  

[NewbieCanuckFan]

51 minutes ago, Maginator said:

Bottom line is Miller can drive play and create chances whereas Bo cannot. 

 

Lots of right place right time goals for Bo and bumper shots on the PP.

 

Miller will come back to life with Tocchet.

One can only hope Tocchet won't be like George Romero with OEL.

[Bathgate]

I voted Miller, since I feel the team can't have only ep40 as only high-end center.

[Metal Face Doom]

JT Miller.  He is a more dynamic player.  People are quick to throw out labels because of personal bias and him wearing his emotions on his sleeve but in actuality, we don't really know anything about the locker room dynamics.  From what he's shown after a 99 point season, he's a better signing than Bo at 8x8.5.

[Alflives]

Bo only getting 14% of the vote.  His selfish stat padding play, soft don’t defend your teammates leadership, and obvious pursuit of the biggest payday possible sure makes fans realize what is most important to Bo. Hard to believe that guy was our Captain. 

[jyu]

47 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Agreed. 

A great 2 way player who isn't just a defensive specialist will still have good +- numbers because the stat is a direct measure of a player's line compared to the opposing line. 

Sure some defensive gaffes by his teammates may affect his numbers but when looking in the big picture, my guess is that the really good 2 way players have a good career +- stat. 

Horvat by the way is - 66 and his best ever was a +3 this year and last year. 

Someone like Bergeron my guess would be the other way like +70 ish

JT Miller is +25

 

Take -30 out from Bo's 2nd season, where he was thrusted into a tough situation. That was the season in which the Canucks officially started sucking (2016 finishing 2nd worst I think in the league). He is -35 over his career sans that season, which is not too bad for a player on a losing team. Even Bergeron poster -28 in his third season. 

 

I agree with what you are saying in general though. Bo is an average defensive player.

 

+/- is not a best measure for defensive abilities, but if it is over nearly 10 seasons of data, then it can delineate the strong defensive players from the average ones.

 

[GB5]

This reminds me of the Luongo/Schneider episodes..

 

Eventually they were both moved, maybe that happens again.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

I hate how Canucks fans just trash former players as soon as they're traded away.  Horvat has always been a solid finisher, and he is elite this season.  He has succeeded Joe Pavelski as the best bumper in the league.  It is a very unique position that requires an incredibly quick thinking and skills in tight spaces.  Can anyone name a more clinical player in the high slot area, with or without the puck?  Most of Horvat's goals he is barely facing the net.  

 

Contrast that with Miller, who has been as effective as Horvat on the POWER PLAY, but has been god-awful in 5v5 situations.  Miller's two-way game is practically nonexistent.  He is a pure offensive playmaker who seems to only produce on the PP.  His temper doesn't seem to match his work ethic either.

 

We all know Miller isn't worth the money he is about to earn.  If he was, we wouldn't even be thinking about trading him away.  Is Horvat worth the contract?  It really depends on how well he fits into the Isles system.  If he can pot 40+ goals a season, nobody in New York will complain about the cap hit.

[goog16]

Both of them at that salary is a hard no from me...I just hope we can trade Miller before his new contract kicks in!!!

Edited February 6, 2023 by goog16

[Metal Face Doom]

32 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

I hate how Canucks fans just trash former players as soon as they're traded away.  Horvat has always been a solid finisher, and he is elite this season.  He has succeeded Joe Pavelski as the best bumper in the league.  It is a very unique position that requires an incredibly quick thinking and skills in tight spaces.  Can anyone name a more clinical player in the high slot area, with or without the puck?  Most of Horvat's goals he is barely facing the net.  

 

Contrast that with Miller, who has been as effective as Horvat on the POWER PLAY, but has been god-awful in 5v5 situations.  Miller's two-way game is practically nonexistent.  He is a pure offensive playmaker who seems to only produce on the PP.  His temper doesn't seem to match his work ethic either.

 

We all know Miller isn't worth the money he is about to earn.  If he was, we wouldn't even be thinking about trading him away.  Is Horvat worth the contract?  It really depends on how well he fits into the Isles system.  If he can pot 40+ goals a season, nobody in New York will complain about the cap hit.

Too many ifs.  You're supposed to be paid based off of past performance, what you're doing currently, and consistency.   Bo is having a career year.  Based off his crazy shooting % this year, this season is most probably an outlier.

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

Agreed. 

A great 2 way player who isn't just a defensive specialist will still have good +- numbers because the stat is a direct measure of a player's line compared to the opposing line. 

Sure some defensive gaffes by his teammates may affect his numbers but when looking in the big picture, my guess is that the really good 2 way players have a good career +- stat. 

Horvat by the way is - 66 and his best ever was a +3 this year and last year. 

Someone like Bergeron my guess would be the other way like +70 ish

JT Miller is +25

 

Patrice Bergeron is a career +275...

[Petterson649]

Dodged a bullet here. Bo will for sure regress to being a 60 point player. Guaranteed.  
 

but if I was forced to pick I would rather have a 60 point Bo vs a 70 point miller given their new contracts. Miller is just a whiny cancerous SOB

[CanucksJay]

3 hours ago, jyu said:

Take -30 out from Bo's 2nd season, where he was thrusted into a tough situation. That was the season in which the Canucks officially started sucking (2016 finishing 2nd worst I think in the league). He is -35 over his career sans that season, which is not too bad for a player on a losing team. Even Bergeron poster -28 in his third season. 

 

I agree with what you are saying in general though. Bo is an average defensive player.

 

+/- is not a best measure for defensive abilities, but if it is over nearly 10 seasons of data, then it can delineate the strong defensive players from the average ones.

 

Funny thing is, Petterson in his career is a +28 and has never had a negative +- season. 

Thats pretty impressive and why I'd be ok signing him long term for a lot of money. 

 

Horvat during that same span is - 19

[cripplereh]

If we could have cleared cap out,Bo all the way.