Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

[DEBATE] JT Miller or Bo Horvat? Who you got?

Rate this topic


Elias Pettersson

JT Miller or Bo Horvat? Who you got?  

121 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Metal Face Doom said:

Too many ifs.  You're supposed to be paid based off of past performance, what you're doing currently, and consistency.   Bo is having a career year.  Based off his crazy shooting % this year, this season is most probably an outlier.

IF Miller played like he did last year, that contract would be much easier for fans to swallow.  Don't you think he had a career year in 21-22?  

 

Horvat has been a consistent player in the bumper role.  His hands have been gold this year, but he has always shown he could pot goals.

  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hindsight is 50/50.    Went with trading them both.   Because well we need to rebuild or at least call the re-tool what it is.    If I had to pick one it would be Miller - only because I want a change in leadership, and if Horvat stayed that wouldn't have happened. 

  • elephant 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

Funny thing is, Petterson in his career is a +28 and has never had a negative +- season. 

Thats pretty impressive and why I'd be ok signing him long term for a lot of money. 

 

Horvat during that same span is - 19

Yes. Pettersson is one of those rare elite defensive and offensive player.

 

Elite defensive players without elite offensive abilities, playing on a bad team and/or used in tough match up roles, typically hover around the even mark. On a season where the stars align and everything goes right, they may put up a monster positive number but generally they put up decent +/- stat given the situation that they play under (bad team + match ups).

 

Elite defensive players with elite offensive skills, somehow manage to put up positive numbers despite playing on a poor team. And that's Pettersson.

 

Must admit though that the first few seasons, Petey played with quite a bit of sheltering. But the turning point was two seasons ago, in which he started to evolve his game. And we are seeing the proof of his evolution this season. 

 

Took some time but I think Petey is trending towards top 5 two way player in the league. Who we get as 2C behind him will decide quite a bit of how far we will go led by Petey-Hughes. Or if we somehow get an elite offensive 1C to play ahead of him... that would be gold.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Hindsight is 50/50.    Went with trading them both.   Because well we need to rebuild or at least call the re-tool what it is.    If I had to pick one it would be Miller - only because I want a change in leadership, and if Horvat stayed that wouldn't have happened. 

pretty well my exact reasoning too.  IMO the best thing for the organization going forward would have been to trade Boeser, Miller, and Horvat. Not re-signed any of them. With those three assets a good GM could have wrangled a shot or two more at Bedard among other things. 

But hindsight and all that.  Who could have predicted Bo's jump?...or Boeser's fall? ....or Millers's antics?.....okay, forget about the last one.

 

I'm not upset we re-signed Miller.  Just that the organization was never quite ready for him yet in their development or retool. But I'll take it. He's a great addition. And I also believe that not only will Tocchet help his emotional game, but Bo leaving will have a good side benefit for JT stepping up.

 

Put it this way...even if one could argue that Bo was younger, was more mentally stable, better face off man, and one thought that edged out Miller's positives of consistency of production, passion for the game, creativity and power.....I think its like sometimes a team needs a goalie change for the sake of change to wake the team up. We desperately needed a culture change here, and trading your high scoring, long running, captain away will certainly do that.

  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no point trading the younger center and keeping a 30 year old who's 8M deal expires in their late 30s if we're trying to get younger and rebuild. You could have argued that Bo being 27 may have still fit with an older retool but even then he doesn't really, but Miller certainly doesn't. 

 

We need to trade both. I doubt management will because they won't be able to flip an 8M contract and will turn around and say it's to protect Petey and give him support.

 

The best move for this franchise would be to dump Miller to a team who needs a scorer and just roll with a dead bunch of AHL centers for now, we can sign a UFA 2C in the offseason if we want but we shouldn't be looking to win any time soon and losing teams shouldn't have 8x7 contracts, let alone two of them...

  • Vintage 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

There is no point trading the younger center and keeping a 30 year old who's 8M deal expires in their late 30s if we're trying to get younger and rebuild. You could have argued that Bo being 27 may have still fit with an older retool but even then he doesn't really, but Miller certainly doesn't. 

 

We need to trade both. I doubt management will because they won't be able to flip an 8M contract and will turn around and say it's to protect Petey and give him support.

 

The best move for this franchise would be to dump Miller to a team who needs a scorer and just roll with a dead bunch of AHL centers for now, we can sign a UFA 2C in the offseason if we want but we shouldn't be looking to win any time soon and losing teams shouldn't have 8x7 contracts, let alone two of them...

There is one clear-cut candidate for a 2C free agent: Alex Kerfoot.  Local kid, can sign him to a 5x5 or something.  Barbashev and Cooper are decent options too.  But after that, you only have old vets.  Pavelski, Killorn, Toews...  you could sign any of these guys to a 2-3 year deal with a NMC and just ride out the bad years.

 

But look at LA and how they've turned things around quickly.  When they returned to the postseason last year, their entire cup-winning core was still intact.  They lost Brown this year and will lose Quick next, but success, loyalty and patience gave the Kings a chance to be competitive again.  The first step is to get more picks and draft smart.

  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

Miller

 

Has outperformed his cap hit every year, not just his contract year

Hits more

Drives play

proven PPG player 

plays all situations 

He cares a lot

Mentor for Podz

He cares so much he attacks his goalie and doesnt backcheck.

I like miller but lets get real- hes not what you want if you want to build a contender 

  • There it is 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

How is that?  The “eye test”?

throw out each player’s career seasons and since Miller came to us he’s by far the better player statistically.  

lol have you even compared their number age by age? probably not coz horvat is trash now that he's dumparoo to islanders

 

horvat at age 26 vs Miller at age 26 when he first came to Vancouver.. let's compare

 

Horvat 26 31 goals in 70 games as a 2nd line center.. Miller 26 27 goals in 69 games as the top line center so tell me again how Miller is by far the better player statistically? Miller's linemate EP and Boeser. Horvat's linemate garland and pearson? Miller stats is inflated by EP who is a superior finisher to finish off miller's pass and a superior playmaker to setup Miller.

 

let's look back even further.. horvat literally out performed Miller every single season at the same age and out scored him every single season.. the only time Miller was better than Horvat at any age was 26 years old when he gotten more "points" but horvat still out scored him.. and he's destroying him at age 27 comparison..

 

but the canucks fan are too thick and dense to look at the 2 player age by age comparison. Miller took off at age 26 in points.. Horvat took off at age 26 in goals.. but nah Miller is by far the better player even though stats shows otherwise. 

 

Miller getting better from 26-27-28 = he'll get better and better

 

Horvat getting better from 26-27 = he will come back to earth and suck at 28

  • Wat 1
  • There it is 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/6/2023 at 10:50 AM, kilgore said:

pretty well my exact reasoning too.  IMO the best thing for the organization going forward would have been to trade Boeser, Miller, and Horvat. Not re-signed any of them. With those three assets a good GM could have wrangled a shot or two more at Bedard among other things. 

But hindsight and all that.  Who could have predicted Bo's jump?...or Boeser's fall? ....or Millers's antics?.....okay, forget about the last one.

 

I'm not upset we re-signed Miller.  Just that the organization was never quite ready for him yet in their development or retool. But I'll take it. He's a great addition. And I also believe that not only will Tocchet help his emotional game, but Bo leaving will have a good side benefit for JT stepping up.

 

Put it this way...even if one could argue that Bo was younger, was more mentally stable, better face off man, and one thought that edged out Miller's positives of consistency of production, passion for the game, creativity and power.....I think its like sometimes a team needs a goalie change for the sake of change to wake the team up. We desperately needed a culture change here, and trading your high scoring, long running, captain away will certainly do that.

Great point.

 

Bo’s leadership wasn’t working. Some fans want to criticize management for letting Bo walk….maybe this is why he wasn’t worth $8M to us?  

  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol have you even compared their number age by age? probably not coz horvat is trash now that he's dumparoo to islanders

 

horvat at age 26 vs Miller at age 26 when he first came to Vancouver.. let's compare

 

Horvat 26 31 goals in 70 games as a 2nd line center.. Miller 26 27 goals in 69 games as the top line center so tell me again how Miller is by far the better player statistically? Miller's linemate EP and Boeser. Horvat's linemate garland and pearson? Miller stats is inflated by EP who is a superior finisher to finish off miller's pass and a superior playmaker to setup Miller.

 

let's look back even further.. horvat literally out performed Miller every single season at the same age and out scored him every single season.. the only time Miller was better than Horvat at any age was 26 years old when he gotten more "points" but horvat still out scored him.. and he's destroying him at age 27 comparison..

 

but the canucks fan are too thick and dense to look at the 2 player age by age comparison. Miller took off at age 26 in points.. Horvat took off at age 26 in goals.. but nah Miller is by far the better player even though stats shows otherwise. 

 

Miller getting better from 26-27-28 = he'll get better and better

 

Horvat getting better from 26-27 = he will come back to earth and suck at 28

Yes. You’re a genius for checking their ages, and leaving out their cap hits.  :rolleyes:
 

One is an established PPG player, and one is not. Get back to me when Horvat has averaged a PPG over three seasons. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Yes. You’re a genius for checking their ages, and leaving out their cap hits.  :rolleyes:
 

One is an established PPG player, and one is not. Get back to me when Horvat has averaged a PPG over three seasons. 

blah blah blah you love miller you hate bo good for you i don't care

 

oh we are going to use average now? bo is average .44 goals/game over the last 2.5 season? ya let's ignore the age. why not compare what a 30 year old is doing and an 22 year old..

 

smart ass they are both in the mid 5s this season so what their cap hit is in the future and what they are doing is irrelevant..

 

both contract will not age well but im willing to bet Miller's contract will age worse than Horvat.. at least Islanders are paying 8.5mil for horvat to be a 1c.. we are paying Miller 8mil to be a 2c? 2w? 

 

and stop quoting me i never started any convo with you nor do i want to start any with you.

  • Wat 1
  • There it is 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

blah blah blah you love miller you hate bo good for you i don't care

 

oh we are going to use average now? bo is average .44 goals/game over the last 2.5 season? ya let's ignore the age. why not compare what a 30 year old is doing and an 22 year old..

 

smart ass they are both in the mid 5s this season so what their cap hit is in the future and what they are doing is irrelevant..

 

both contract will not age well but im willing to bet Miller's contract will age worse than Horvat.. at least Islanders are paying 8.5mil for horvat to be a 1c.. we are paying Miller 8mil to be a 2c? 2w? 

 

and stop quoting me i never started any convo with you nor do i want to start any with you.

Both are great hockey players. I don’t love either of them, which is why my posts aren’t emotional, rambling rants. You’ve been whining about this trade since it happened, and don’t seem capable of discussing it logically. I usually ignore you, but passively calling other fans dense for not comparing the two players ages is beyond ridiculous. Your sense of smugness is unearned. ‘lol’
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

blah blah blah you love miller you hate bo good for you i don't care

 

oh we are going to use average now? bo is average .44 goals/game over the last 2.5 season? ya let's ignore the age. why not compare what a 30 year old is doing and an 22 year old..

 

smart ass they are both in the mid 5s this season so what their cap hit is in the future and what they are doing is irrelevant..

 

both contract will not age well but im willing to bet Miller's contract will age worse than Horvat.. at least Islanders are paying 8.5mil for horvat to be a 1c.. we are paying Miller 8mil to be a 2c? 2w? 

 

and stop quoting me i never started any convo with you nor do i want to start any with you.

If the age were more than a mere 2 years apart, I could see what you're saying; however, 2 years is not really that massive of a different, especially not massive enough to start calling people out for not including it as a factor.

 

Both players are likely in their primes. Bo might have a career year which is why he got the contract he did (otherwise, he'd be making less than Miller probably). It's pretty comparable overall. I only voted for Bo in the poll because of those 2 years, but considering that might be the only factor... it's not exactly a lights out argument if 2 years difference is ultimately what makes a decision. If anything it shows how similar in skill the players are.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, The Lock said:

If the age were more than a mere 2 years apart, I could see what you're saying; however, 2 years is not really that massive of a different, especially not massive enough to start calling people out for not including it as a factor.

 

Both players are likely in their primes. Bo might have a career year which is why he got the contract he did (otherwise, he'd be making less than Miller probably). It's pretty comparable overall. I only voted for Bo in the poll because of those 2 years, but considering that might be the only factor... it's not exactly a lights out argument if 2 years difference is ultimately what makes a decision. If anything it shows how similar in skill the players are.

So if miller contract expired at the age of 27 instead of at the age of 29 you’ll be saying the same thing? It’s just the timing of the contract expiring. 2 years is a huge difference lol 2 years ago Jack Hughes was almost called a bust and can’t live up to his #1 overall status. One is in the middle of his prime when his contract is up vs one is at the start of his prime 

  • Wat 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...