[DEBATE] JT Miller or Bo Horvat? Who you got?

[The Lock]

21 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

So if miller contract expired at the age of 27 instead of at the age of 29 you’ll be saying the same thing? It’s just the timing of the contract expiring. 2 years is a huge difference lol 2 years ago Jack Hughes was almost called a bust and can’t live up to his #1 overall status. One is in the middle of his prime when his contract is up vs one is at the start of his prime 

I'm saying there's not much different between the 2 contracts even right now with age. A 2 year difference hardly is the definition of "middle of one's prime" and "start of one's prime". Every player is different.

 

Stop treating this like it's some magical number where immediately someone turns 27 and it's like "oh you're at your prime now!" Stop putting tangibles to what's effectively intangible.

 

Let me ask you this: how old are you? What if I literally told you when you turn a certain age you'd better be at your prime, or you better be married, or you better be retired? How would you like to be treated the exact same way you are right now treating these players?

 

Edit: And yes, I understand in the hockey world things move faster, but I also understand that we've seen players literally in their 40's still playing. We even see Pavelski putting up a career year after we thought he was done. We see Virtanen getting kick out of the Swiss league at the age of 26. It's a stupid argument to place 2 years as being the "middle" and the "start" of one's prime.

Edited February 9, 2023 by The Lock

[wai_lai416]

10 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I'm saying there's not much different between the 2 contracts even right now with age. A 2 year difference hardly is the definition of "middle of one's prime" and "start of one's prime". Every player is different.

 

Stop treating this like it's some magical number where immediately someone turns 27 and it's like "oh you're at your prime now!" Stop putting tangibles to what's effectively intangible.

 

Let me ask you this: how old are you? What if I literally told you when you turn a certain age you'd better be at your prime, or you better be married, or you better be retired? How would you like to be treated the exact same way you are right now treating these players?

 

Edit: And yes, I understand in the hockey world things move faster, but I also understand that we've seen players literally in their 40's still playing. We even see Pavelski putting up a career year after we thought he was done. We see Virtanen getting kick out of the Swiss league at the age of 26. It's a stupid argument to place 2 years as being the "middle" and the "start" of one's prime.

You guys are literally the one that are putting bo in that category. a lot of people are predicting bo already hit his ceiling and will be nothing more than a 50-60 point guy his avg from years ago. It’s literally facts most athlete in the nhl perform at peak performance during the age 26-30. Of coz there’s outlier to the rule. But it’s funny you guys are hellbent on thinking bo is an exception to the rules and he can’t improve and perform from 26-30 and he will be the player he was from 22-25

[Ted Lasso]

33 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

You guys are literally the one that are putting bo in that category. a lot of people are predicting bo already hit his ceiling and will be nothing more than a 50-60 point guy his avg from years ago. It’s literally facts most athlete in the nhl perform at peak performance during the age 26-30. Of coz there’s outlier to the rule. But it’s funny you guys are hellbent on thinking bo is an exception to the rules and he can’t improve and perform from 26-30 and he will be the player he was from 22-25

condensed argument:

 

“I miss my Bo Bo!” 

[wai_lai416]

24 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

condensed argument:

 

“I miss my Bo Bo!” 

muted stop f*king quoting me you are annoying as f*k and i don't give a f Bo is traded get rid of Miller while at it both of them are not what this team needs and neither will be able to contribute when this team is ready

[Ted Lasso]

28 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

muted stop f*king quoting me you are annoying as f*k and i don't give a f Bo is traded get rid of Miller while at it both of them are not what this team needs and neither will be able to contribute when this team is ready

A waimbulance has been dispatched to your location. Please stay on the line. 

[Baggins]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

You guys are literally the one that are putting bo in that category. a lot of people are predicting bo already hit his ceiling and will be nothing more than a 50-60 point guy his avg from years ago. It’s literally facts most athlete in the nhl perform at peak performance during the age 26-30. Of coz there’s outlier to the rule. But it’s funny you guys are hellbent on thinking bo is an exception to the rules and he can’t improve and perform from 26-30 and he will be the player he was from 22-25

At 26 Kesler scored 41 goals (tied with Danny for team lead). He never hit 30 goals in a season before or after that season. On the upside that season came right after re-signing rather than in a contract year. One offs do happen. Bo may or may not be having a one off season. Nobody can say with any certainty that it is or isn't a one off. Only time will tell. But one thing of note is Kesler was asked about his increased goal scoring that season and he said he spent a lot of time shooting pucks in that offseason. Bo gave the same answer when asked earlier this season about his increased scoring. 

 

I'll add this, no one can predict when a players decline will come either. Martin St Louis was a late bloomer that stayed very productive through his 30's. He retired at 40 after a 50+ pt season. I doubt anybody would have predicted that 5' 8" St Louis would be well over a point per game at 37 (60 pts in 48 games). There's quite a few highly productive older players in the league right now. While others peak at 28 and are done before age 35. 

[wai_lai416]

40 minutes ago, Baggins said:

At 26 Kesler scored 41 goals (tied with Danny for team lead). He never hit 30 goals in a season before or after that season. On the upside that season came right after re-signing rather than in a contract year. One offs do happen. Bo may or may not be having a one off season. Nobody can say with any certainty that it is or isn't a one off. Only time will tell. But one thing of note is Kesler was asked about his increased goal scoring that season and he said he spent a lot of time shooting pucks in that offseason. Bo gave the same answer when asked earlier this season about his increased scoring. 

 

I'll add this, no one can predict when a players decline will come either. Martin St Louis was a late bloomer that stayed very productive through his 30's. He retired at 40 after a 50+ pt season. I doubt anybody would have predicted that 5' 8" St Louis would be well over a point per game at 37 (60 pts in 48 games). There's quite a few highly productive older players in the league right now. While others peak at 28 and are done before age 35. 

is kesler in general fits the criteria but i think the issue with him was he have never been a 30+ goal scorer his entire career and injury really derailed him. bo have been a 30+ goal scorer and in the shortened season been trending to around 35 goals a few times while i don't think he'll be a 50 goal scorer i certainly think he could be around 40 goals a season if given an opportunity. and he's going to get exactly that playing on the top line with barzal.. this year for sure is an anomoly with horvat as he'll prolly hit 45 goals and a ppg guy. i see bo more of a 40 goal 75ish guy if playing on a top line i mean i could be wrong.. but everyone here that wanted to dump bo seems to think he's 100% going to be a 50-60 point after this season. is bo worth his 8.5mil contract? no i don't think so but i think Islander overpaid and know they have to overpay in order to get a guy that have no roots with the team . i wanted bo signed back in the summer for 7mil and prolly would have gotten it done too if the canucks were willing to go to that number back in the summer. but no a good chunk thinks he should be signed to a bargain price like RNH. Nugent hopkin is performing well above his pay this season.. but really his stats is inflated by playing on the top PP and occasionally with draisital the past couple years, and he prolly knows he was overpaid on his last contract.. if the management locked up bo for 7mil back in the summer his contract would have looked like a steal right now. i didn't like the Miller signing for several reason first off if the management was looking at retooling Miller doesn't exactly fit the timeline. a retool is going to take at least 2+ years for guys like pearson myers etc to come off.. Miller would be 31.. so what is the point of miller at the tail end of his prime paid 8mil? 2nd if EP is pegged to be the 1C on the team i would have preferred horvat as a 2c instead of Miller as a 2c again this was based on last summer before horvat's outbreak when we coulda have him for prolly 7mil. horvat at 7mil vs Miller at 8mil as a 2c i take horvat any day of the week based on his ability outside of scoring. Miller is a liability if he's not scoring. 

 

again i don't think bo will sustain his 22% shooting % 16-17 is more reasonable and no that's not high if u compare some of the goals leader in recent years. with increase offensive chance playing as the defacto top line with barzal he'll prolly get more pucks on the net. who knows maybe bo will become a ppg guy in the right situation.. Miller got that chance at 26 looks like bo is getting that chance at 27. only difference is millers contract expires when he's 29 so you get to look at it for couple of years vs Horvat's contract expires at 27. timing worked out for horvat. 

 

take out horvat's *career season* he's still avging 30+ goals over 82 games the last couple season. take out Miller's "career season" he's not quite at a ppg. he's avg close to 75 points over 82. and let's just say they were both worth 7mil. i take horvat 30 point 60 65 points as a 2c vs Miller 75 points as a 1c. why? horvat is producing as a 2C. can Miller produce his 75+ point pace as a 2c if EP takes over the top line which is the plan? i don't think so. 

 

horvat's gone now it is what it is. but i still prefer Miller shipped out as well because he does not fit in the "retool" timeline and there's probably going to be a lot more losing next season too.. his angry tantrum rubs a lot of people the wrong way and he'll probably be angry often when the team is "losing" 

[The Lock]

13 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

You guys are literally the one that are putting bo in that category. a lot of people are predicting bo already hit his ceiling and will be nothing more than a 50-60 point guy his avg from years ago. It’s literally facts most athlete in the nhl perform at peak performance during the age 26-30. Of coz there’s outlier to the rule. But it’s funny you guys are hellbent on thinking bo is an exception to the rules and he can’t improve and perform from 26-30 and he will be the player he was from 22-25

I haven't put Bo into any category. Please, give me the exact quote where I've said such a thing. You literally just said "peak performance during the age of 26-30"... that then includes both Bo and Miller does it not? Does it matter beyond that? Doesn't that mean both of them are in their primes?

 

And what rules is Bo an exception to? Your rules?

 

You're clearly emotionally attached to your opinion here. Even if it's just for a moment, put yourself in our shoes. I know it's probably hard since you're so emotionally attached here, but try it. Come up with points against your bias. Challenge yourself. Maybe you come up with nothing new. Maybe you solidify your opinion. Maybe you start to see where people might not agree with your opinion. Try it.

Edited February 9, 2023 by The Lock

[Ted Lasso]

6 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

is kesler in general fits the criteria but i think the issue with him was he have never been a 30+ goal scorer his entire career and injury really derailed him. bo have been a 30+ goal scorer and in the shortened season been trending to around 35 goals a few times while i don't think he'll be a 50 goal scorer i certainly think he could be around 40 goals a season if given an opportunity. and he's going to get exactly that playing on the top line with barzal.. this year for sure is an anomoly with horvat as he'll prolly hit 45 goals and a ppg guy. i see bo more of a 40 goal 75ish guy if playing on a top line i mean i could be wrong.. but everyone here that wanted to dump bo seems to think he's 100% going to be a 50-60 point after this season. is bo worth his 8.5mil contract? no i don't think so but i think Islander overpaid and know they have to overpay in order to get a guy that have no roots with the team . i wanted bo signed back in the summer for 7mil and prolly would have gotten it done too if the canucks were willing to go to that number back in the summer. but no a good chunk thinks he should be signed to a bargain price like RNH. Nugent hopkin is performing well above his pay this season.. but really his stats is inflated by playing on the top PP and occasionally with draisital the past couple years, and he prolly knows he was overpaid on his last contract.. if the management locked up bo for 7mil back in the summer his contract would have looked like a steal right now. i didn't like the Miller signing for several reason first off if the management was looking at retooling Miller doesn't exactly fit the timeline. a retool is going to take at least 2+ years for guys like pearson myers etc to come off.. Miller would be 31.. so what is the point of miller at the tail end of his prime paid 8mil? 2nd if EP is pegged to be the 1C on the team i would have preferred horvat as a 2c instead of Miller as a 2c again this was based on last summer before horvat's outbreak when we coulda have him for prolly 7mil. horvat at 7mil vs Miller at 8mil as a 2c i take horvat any day of the week based on his ability outside of scoring. Miller is a liability if he's not scoring. 

 

again i don't think bo will sustain his 22% shooting % 16-17 is more reasonable and no that's not high if u compare some of the goals leader in recent years. with increase offensive chance playing as the defacto top line with barzal he'll prolly get more pucks on the net. who knows maybe bo will become a ppg guy in the right situation.. Miller got that chance at 26 looks like bo is getting that chance at 27. only difference is millers contract expires when he's 29 so you get to look at it for couple of years vs Horvat's contract expires at 27. timing worked out for horvat. 

 

take out horvat's *career season* he's still avging 30+ goals over 82 games the last couple season. take out Miller's "career season" he's not quite at a ppg. he's avg close to 75 points over 82. and let's just say they were both worth 7mil. i take horvat 30 point 60 65 points as a 2c vs Miller 75 points as a 1c. why? horvat is producing as a 2C. can Miller produce his 75+ point pace as a 2c if EP takes over the top line which is the plan? i don't think so. 

 

horvat's gone now it is what it is. but i still prefer Miller shipped out as well because he does not fit in the "retool" timeline and there's probably going to be a lot more losing next season too.. his angry tantrum rubs a lot of people the wrong way and he'll probably be angry often when the team is "losing" 

[wai_lai416]

7 hours ago, The Lock said:

I haven't put Bo into any category. Please, give me the exact quote where I've said such a thing. You literally just said "peak performance during the age of 26-30"... that then includes both Bo and Miller does it not? Does it matter beyond that? Doesn't that mean both of them are in their primes?

 

And what rules is Bo an exception to? Your rules?

 

You're clearly emotionally attached to your opinion here. Even if it's just for a moment, put yourself in our shoes. I know it's probably hard since you're so emotionally attached here, but try it. Come up with points against your bias. Challenge yourself. Maybe you come up with nothing new. Maybe you solidify your opinion. Maybe you start to see where people might not agree with your opinion. Try it.

again a good chunk of you guys hae different standards when it comes to bo vs miller. what rule? a lot of you have decided bo is at best a 60 point guy and he's not allowed to improve so therefore he will be back to being a 60 point or worse guy, while miller improved year to year from 26-28 when he used to be a 50 point guy. this have nothing to do with emotional attachment or not. i've accepted Bo would move and i've always said if bo is move Miller also needs to be moved as it makes 0 sense to retool around a player that'll be 30+ while paid the highest or 2nd highest on the team. do i think bo is worth 8mil+ a season? no. should he be re-signed at 8mil+? no only if they moved miller. did management botch the whole thing? yes. prolly could have gotten the deal done for 6.5-7mil back int he summer before the season started. again if the plan is for EP to be the 1C.. Horvat back in the summer at 6.5-7mil makes way more sense as a 2c than Miller will ever be as a 2c at 8mil.

[Baratheon]

7 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

[The Lock]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

again a good chunk of you guys hae different standards when it comes to bo vs miller. what rule? a lot of you have decided bo is at best a 60 point guy and he's not allowed to improve so therefore he will be back to being a 60 point or worse guy, while miller improved year to year from 26-28 when he used to be a 50 point guy. this have nothing to do with emotional attachment or not. i've accepted Bo would move and i've always said if bo is move Miller also needs to be moved as it makes 0 sense to retool around a player that'll be 30+ while paid the highest or 2nd highest on the team. do i think bo is worth 8mil+ a season? no. should he be re-signed at 8mil+? no only if they moved miller. did management botch the whole thing? yes. prolly could have gotten the deal done for 6.5-7mil back int he summer before the season started. again if the plan is for EP to be the 1C.. Horvat back in the summer at 6.5-7mil makes way more sense as a 2c than Miller will ever be as a 2c at 8mil.

You didn't even consider what I said, did you?

 

I've told you I don't have a favourite. I even said, Bo is having a career year.

 

Seriously, look back at my posts.

 

When did I saiy that I have decided Bo is best a 60 point guy? If anything, I told Alf in another thread that he's going to eat those words that you're literally accusing me of. I've literally defended Bo through thick and thin this entire time; yet, you're not listening to me. I've literally told others that Bo's on pace for a 50 GOAL season, not points, goals. I'm saying Miller and Bo are roughty equal. I'm saying that 2 years isn't that big of a deal with these contracts.

 

Yet, you want to go on about things I've never even said. If you have to make up what I've said... clearly, you aren't listening. Again, I urge you: look at other peoples' perspectives. Rather than sitting in your own bubble going "how dare people offend my lord and saviour Bo", maybe actually see the stance of people?

 

I'm tired of you telling me things I never said. You are 100% emotionally attached here otherwise you would see reasoning better. Just... read other peoples posts. Clearly, you aren't. You're just making up what other people are saying and defending what you are saying other people are saying. You're not even defending against other peoples' arguments. You're just defending against your own make believe world of what you think other people are saying.

Edited February 10, 2023 by The Lock

[wai_lai416]

30 minutes ago, The Lock said:

You didn't even consider what I said, did you?

 

I've told you I don't have a favourite. I even said, Bo is having a career year.

 

Seriously, look back at my posts.

 

When did I saiy that I have decided Bo is best a 60 point guy? If anything, I told Alf in another thread that he's going to eat those words that you're literally accusing me of. I've literally defended Bo through thick and thin this entire time; yet, you're not listening to me. I've literally told others that Bo's on pace for a 50 GOAL season, not points, goals. I'm saying Miller and Bo are roughty equal. I'm saying that 2 years isn't that big of a deal with these contracts.

 

Yet, you want to go on about things I've never even said. If you have to make up what I've said... clearly, you aren't listening. Again, I urge you: look at other peoples' perspectives. Rather than sitting in your own bubble going "how dare people offend my lord and saviour Bo", maybe actually see the stance of people?

 

I'm tired of you telling me things I never said. You are 100% emotionally attached here otherwise you would see reasoning better. Just... read other peoples posts. Clearly, you aren't. You're just making up what other people are saying and defending what you are saying other people are saying. You're not even defending against other peoples' arguments. You're just defending against your own make believe world of what you think other people are saying.

I haven’t said YOU specifically? Nor have I ever quoted YOU? So you represent the entire population? You are literally picking at bone just for the sake of starting an argument 

Edited February 10, 2023 by wai_lai416

[Ted Lasso]

.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Kenny Powers

[Baggins]

14 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

is kesler in general fits the criteria but i think the issue with him was he have never been a 30+ goal scorer his entire career and injury really derailed him. bo have been a 30+ goal scorer and in the shortened season been trending to around 35 goals a few times while i don't think he'll be a 50 goal scorer i certainly think he could be around 40 goals a season if given an opportunity. and he's going to get exactly that playing on the top line with barzal.. this year for sure is an anomoly with horvat as he'll prolly hit 45 goals and a ppg guy. i see bo more of a 40 goal 75ish guy if playing on a top line i mean i could be wrong.. but everyone here that wanted to dump bo seems to think he's 100% going to be a 50-60 point after this season. is bo worth his 8.5mil contract? no i don't think so but i think Islander overpaid and know they have to overpay in order to get a guy that have no roots with the team . i wanted bo signed back in the summer for 7mil and prolly would have gotten it done too if the canucks were willing to go to that number back in the summer. but no a good chunk thinks he should be signed to a bargain price like RNH. Nugent hopkin is performing well above his pay this season.. but really his stats is inflated by playing on the top PP and occasionally with draisital the past couple years, and he prolly knows he was overpaid on his last contract.. if the management locked up bo for 7mil back in the summer his contract would have looked like a steal right now. i didn't like the Miller signing for several reason first off if the management was looking at retooling Miller doesn't exactly fit the timeline. a retool is going to take at least 2+ years for guys like pearson myers etc to come off.. Miller would be 31.. so what is the point of miller at the tail end of his prime paid 8mil? 2nd if EP is pegged to be the 1C on the team i would have preferred horvat as a 2c instead of Miller as a 2c again this was based on last summer before horvat's outbreak when we coulda have him for prolly 7mil. horvat at 7mil vs Miller at 8mil as a 2c i take horvat any day of the week based on his ability outside of scoring. Miller is a liability if he's not scoring. 

 

again i don't think bo will sustain his 22% shooting % 16-17 is more reasonable and no that's not high if u compare some of the goals leader in recent years. with increase offensive chance playing as the defacto top line with barzal he'll prolly get more pucks on the net. who knows maybe bo will become a ppg guy in the right situation.. Miller got that chance at 26 looks like bo is getting that chance at 27. only difference is millers contract expires when he's 29 so you get to look at it for couple of years vs Horvat's contract expires at 27. timing worked out for horvat. 

 

take out horvat's *career season* he's still avging 30+ goals over 82 games the last couple season. take out Miller's "career season" he's not quite at a ppg. he's avg close to 75 points over 82. and let's just say they were both worth 7mil. i take horvat 30 point 60 65 points as a 2c vs Miller 75 points as a 1c. why? horvat is producing as a 2C. can Miller produce his 75+ point pace as a 2c if EP takes over the top line which is the plan? i don't think so. 

 

horvat's gone now it is what it is. but i still prefer Miller shipped out as well because he does not fit in the "retool" timeline and there's probably going to be a lot more losing next season too.. his angry tantrum rubs a lot of people the wrong way and he'll probably be angry often when the team is "losing" 

Why does it not surprise the me parallel went over your head. You're right, Kesler was never a 30 goal scorer yet he hit 40+ after spending a great deal of time shooting pucks in the offseason. Horvat has never been a 40 goal scorer, yet he is on pace for 50+ after spending a great deal of time shooting pucks in the offseason. See the parallel?

 

Take out Millers "career season" and he's 0.97 pts per game his previous two seasons

Take out Horvats "career season" and he's 0.72 pts per game his previous two seasons

 

Possibly the weirdest stat is over the past 3 seasons combined Bo leads the Canucks in shots on goal with 646. The guy hampered offensively by being in a defensive role. Miller is 2nd at 615 and has played 10 more games than Bo.

 

How exactly is Miller a liability if not scoring? He's more agressive, hits more, and has more takeaways. He must be doing something right when not scoring to have more takeaways than Bo. He even spends more time per game on the PK than Bo. We need more aggressive forwards not more nice guys. This season Bo has been hitting even less than usual. Garland and Petey have more hits per 60 minutes this season than Bo. He dropped down the the Boeser level of hitting this season.

[iinatcc]

In a world where OEL, Tyler Myers, or Garland's contract didn't exist I would have gone for both

 

My rationale is that if let's say Elias Pettersson demands 11 Million in his next extension

A 8.5 Million Horvat and a 8 Million Miller still is quite good for as far as forwards are concerned

 

In comparison it wouldn't be too far off the contract Tampa is paying Point, Stamkos, and Kucherov 

It's just a matter of moving the other inefficient contracts. 

 

 

[wai_lai416]

4 minutes ago, Baggins said:

How exactly is Miller a liability if not scoring? He's more agressive, hits more, and has more takeaways. He must be doing something right when not scoring to have more takeaways than Bo. He even spends more time per game on the PK than Bo. We need more aggressive forwards not more nice guys. This season Bo has been hitting even less than usual. Garland and Petey have more hits per 60 minutes this season than Bo. He dropped down the the Boeser level of hitting this season.

how is he not a liability if he's not scoring? being agressive in the offensive zone only? great he has more takeaways only double to triple the giveaways yearly.. and good chunk of his giveaways are grade A chance the other way more often than not ends up being in our net.. there are lots of centers that play the top 2 line doesn't hit either? so are we going to call bergeron not effective because he barely hits too? he has 5 more hits than bo. and in general the 3rd and 4th liners centers will have more hits than the top 2 line centers as they are suppose to be grinding and pinning teams in their own zone. how often do you see the center charge in and hit someone on the forecheck? that's usually the wingers job.. there are lots of center on the top 2 line in the league that doesn't have much hits it's not just bo.

[Baggins]

15 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

how is he not a liability if he's not scoring? being agressive in the offensive zone only? great he has more takeaways only double to triple the giveaways yearly.. and good chunk of his giveaways are grade A chance the other way more often than not ends up being in our net.. there are lots of centers that play the top 2 line doesn't hit either? so are we going to call bergeron not effective because he barely hits too? he has 5 more hits than bo. and in general the 3rd and 4th liners centers will have more hits than the top 2 line centers as they are suppose to be grinding and pinning teams in their own zone. how often do you see the center charge in and hit someone on the forecheck? that's usually the wingers job.. there are lots of center on the top 2 line in the league that doesn't have much hits it's not just bo.

Sure sparky, Miller never hits in the D zone. Except that's simply not true. Unfortunately the stats don't show where a players hits occur. So lets address your giveaways/takeaways claim. This season....

 

Miller 1.90 GA per 60 minutes - 1.96 TA per 60 minutes

Petey 1.92 GA per 60 minutes - 2.04 TA per 60 minutes

Garland 2.07 GA per 60 minutes - 1.99 TA per 60 minutes

Podkozlin 2.69 GA per 60 minutes (team worst) - 0.97 TA per 60 minutes

 

Millers previous 3 seasons combined average here is: 2.07 GA per 60 and 1.96 TA per 60. Meaning his GA rate this season is actually a little lower and his TA rate the same. 

 

Miller has not had a single season here where his giveaways were double his takeaways nevermind triple. His worst season here he had 50% more giveaways than takeaways and his best season 50% more takeaways than giveaways. I suspect you're one of those that watches a player you don't like (Miller) looking for mistakes so you can go "See, he sucks!" while ignoring anything good he does. Then makes up claims like doesn't backcheck, no good defensively, doulbe to triple the giveaways compared to his takeaways.  

 

Blocked shots per 60 minutes played this season

Miller 1.90

Horvat 1.76

Another weird stat considering Miller doesn't do anything defensively.

 

You really do seem to clutch at any straw to pump Bo's his tires while clutching at straws to put Miller down. Nobody is saying Horvat is a bad player. He's not. But you seem hellbent that Horvat is god and Miller garbage. Neither is true. Both have strengths, both have weaknesses, and both are good players. My preference would have been keeping both. Having 3 top 6 C's is a real luxury should one get injured. But if only one of Miller/Horvat could be kept, my choice would be Miller. I simply think Miller brings more to the table.

[wai_lai416]

4 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Sure sparky, Miller never hits in the D zone. Except that's simply not true. Unfortunately the stats don't show where a players hits occur. So lets address your giveaways/takeaways claim. This season....

 

Miller 1.90 GA per 60 minutes - 1.96 TA per 60 minutes

Petey 1.92 GA per 60 minutes - 2.04 TA per 60 minutes

Garland 2.07 GA per 60 minutes - 1.99 TA per 60 minutes

Podkozlin 2.69 GA per 60 minutes (team worst) - 0.97 TA per 60 minutes

 

Millers previous 3 seasons combined average here is: 2.07 GA per 60 and 1.96 TA per 60. Meaning his GA rate this season is actually a little lower and his TA rate the same. 

 

Miller has not had a single season here where his giveaways were double his takeaways nevermind triple. His worst season here he had 50% more giveaways than takeaways and his best season 50% more takeaways than giveaways. I suspect you're one of those that watches a player you don't like (Miller) looking for mistakes so you can go "See, he sucks!" while ignoring anything good he does. Then makes up claims like doesn't backcheck, no good defensively, doulbe to triple the giveaways compared to his takeaways.  

 

Blocked shots per 60 minutes played this season

Miller 1.90

Horvat 1.76

Another weird stat considering Miller doesn't do anything defensively.

 

You really do seem to clutch at any straw to pump Bo's his tires while clutching at straws to put Miller down. Nobody is saying Horvat is a bad player. He's not. But you seem hellbent that Horvat is god and Miller garbage. Neither is true. Both have strengths, both have weaknesses, and both are good players. My preference would have been keeping both. Having 3 top 6 C's is a real luxury should one get injured. But if only one of Miller/Horvat could be kept, my choice would be Miller. I simply think Miller brings more to the table.

lol i should have said he doubles/triples the takeaway of Bo and almost double the giveaway of any forwards on the team.. when you are leading the team in giveaway as a forward?? something is not right.. when the league leader is literally all defenceman in giveaways.. on the team yearly.. this is literally the only season the forwards other than JT is giving away the puck as often.. majority of them they are under 0.5 giveaway per game..

 

and for whatever it's worth the last 3 years combined including this one.. the team scored 155 goals when Miller is on the ice.. by comparison when horvat is on the ice the team scored 140 goals.. this is just even strength.. not a whole lot of difference.. but they've given up 159 goals when miller is on the ice vs 140 when horvat is on the ice.. i didn't include PK otherwise that gap is even bigger.. in the last 4 seasons Miller when on the ice is at 3.56 ga/60 vs 3.1 ga/60 for bo. but it must be everyone else fault because Miller is doing his job defensively hitting and blocking shots right?

 

and it's not all about stats.. it's about the bloody eye test. Miller have been one of the worse if not the worse forward defensively out of the top 6... he was bad enough to be removed as a center.. bad enough to be removed as the primary PK center.. 

 

no one said anything about Miller is trash and Bo is god. offensively Miller is slightly better as he can pass and shoot where bo is only a good shooter not so much a passer.. Defensively Bo ain't great but he's much more reliable than Miller.. how many overtime game this year did Miller get little to no minutes in OT? plenty.. that's how much of a liability he is when you have to bench one of ur better offensive player in OT. do i want either player at their new cap hit? no.. but if they would have actually negotiated with bo back in the summer and got him to sign at 7mil or sub 7? i would have taken bo over Miller any day.. not because miller is trash.. it's HE DOESN'T FIT THIS TEAMS BLOODY TIMELINE.. whether it's a retool or rebuild.. by the time we wait out the myers the pearson the whatever else contracts Miller will be 31 turning 32 in the season.. so why are we paying top money for a guy that just doesn't fit the timeline of the team? we are really paying 8mil for a guy to mentor the "kids". If they moved Miller last year i have no issue with them moving Bo too this year.. but keeping Miller and then moving bo for a retool makes absolutely no sense and should have been the other way around. Horvat at least can play matchup or shutdown if he's not the top line.. Miller can't exactly play that role if the plan was for EP to take over as the 1C.

 

doesn't really matter what Miller brings to the table if he can't be trusted to be on the ice with the game on the line.. he was like that under green he was like that under boudreau. of coz maybe tochette can get thru to him and Miller becomes better consistently. so far he looked good that block shot at the end of the game was great but will he do it consistently moving forward remains to be seen. it might be just him trying to impress the new coaching staff so they get off his ass about his lazy giveaways and defence prior to tochette, but if he can do that consistently and stop throwing tantrums on the ice? then he can shut me up as there wouldn't be any bones for me to pick on.