The deserving(?) downfall of the Vancouver Canucks

[The Lock]

6 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

See, that's the thing, if someone posts something on here that talks about Mike Gillis being a bad GM, I'd really be curious if that person gets the same type of positive reaction. What I'm highlighting is that once a point aligns with people's beliefs, there isn't a complaint even if it's redundant.

Absolutely that is the thing, which is why I don't think it's time to be telling people not to talk about the current fire that's happening, because it's like... happening. I think you're on the right track, just with a conclusion that's a little off from it. I'm assuming you're tired of hearing about it all, which is fine. I understand. It's not an easy time for us at the moment. However, complaining about people complaining is just more complaining in the end. You just become a part of it.

 

I say let people pour onto that fire at the moment because it's our situation at the moment. We're not having a good season. People are going to talk about it because it's relevant to now. Guenthier's attached to the situation we're in, maybe indirectly, but still relevant in that it's salt on the wound.

 

You complaining about it is just you being part of it.

Edited February 9, 2023 by The Lock

[alt kilgore]

12 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

The trade is honestly not that bad. Definitely not as bad as people keep making it out to be.

 

Guenther could be a good player or not. It's still really too early. I've mentioned before that Benning's worst trade is the Forsling one. We could've used that guy. As for Guenther, we have a plethora of wingers. We don't really NEED him.

 

I'm curious to see how OEL or Garland does in this offseason under this coaching staff. If they come back unproductive, then we can start having this discussion again. Garland is doing pretty good in this short stint.

not that bad?   Its one of those trades you have to just laugh about because its so typically Canuck luck awful.

 

As DSVII said, even if you take out Guenther.  Heck, take out the second (Haight) and seventh pick in this years too while your at it.  Its STILL a bad deal.

 

We still sacrificed 6 years in future of shaving 7.3 off your cap for a rapidly declining defenseman who is now more suiited to a 5th spot. 

And one smallish NHL forward.  They both still contribute, and can play, but not worth the cap hit.  So if a comfortable number for OEL is 4 million, and I'm being generous, and Garland, who had JB by the balls as he was going into unrestricted FA,  is also worth more like 4, the difference in their worth and overpayment for the years of their contracts would add up to OEL 6 x 3.3  + Garland 5 x 1 =  $24.8 less cap space to work with until 2026/2027

 

Arizona must have had a party the day of the deal. They still got 3 NHL calibre players for one year, and then cleared 13 million. And no more OEL.  Seriously...which team was the one that touted this deal as a good way to clear cap space again? 

 

Even without any draft picks, just OEL Garland > Roussel, Beagle, and Eriksson, considering all the contracts/terms, would still have been a loss for Benning. 

 

And then there's Guenther, a top ten pick, and possibly Haight as a second round pick. One thing our team is desperate for is prospects after JB scraped the farm clean.   Whomever we had picked in those spots, they were needed here.  He's a winger yes, but he was also the BPA, and its also about accumulating value, even if it ends up in a trade package. The first D available in that draft was taken lower.  Mind you even a first round D like Ceulemans or Lambos @ 25 and 26  would have been nice.

 

This deal was so bad that I can almost imagine Bill Armstrong, Coyotes GM, laughing with his assistants covering the mouthpiece and whispering to them. "Hey....just for fun, lets see if we can get Jimbo to throw in a seventh rounder too!"  

 

 

[RU SERIOUS]

3 hours ago, BlakeQuinnAndEggs said:

I would say they have finally proved that  is their intention by trading their captain who is just entering his prime.

That's like painting your garage door and saying "Honey, the new paint-job on the house looks great"!  It's acceptance & thinking like that - that has allowed this team to float in mediocrity for over a decade!.    I

[BlakeQuinnAndEggs]

1 hour ago, RU SERIOUS said:

That's like painting your garage door and saying "Honey, the new paint-job on the house looks great"!  It's acceptance & thinking like that - that has allowed this team to float in mediocrity for over a decade!.    I

I don't understand..... do you not think we are on our way to a rebuild cause all signs point to it. This is not Jim Benning.

.

[IBatch]

19 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Horvat has signed team friendly contracts throughout his career. The moment that he signed for market value is when the Canucks fans accuse him of cashing out for money. The entitlement in this city is ridiculous.

Lol.   Says who?  Two of his six years he outproduced his deal, the other four under for RFA.   It was a fair deal not "team friendly".   Millers current deal is an example of a team friendly deal (not his next contract).   The sooner folks around Vancouver figure that out (at least they have with Brock) the better.   A second contract is supposed to be max value for the team.    He's on his third contract.   So ... huh?  His UFA deal might look decent for a couple years.   After that well Miller time. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by IBatch

[DefCon1]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:13 PM, Mando27 said:

With ownership like this it's expected. Linden was smart to jump ship when he could, the constant refusal to rebuild the team has cost them another decade of being a middling team. Wonder how the team would have turned out if we rebuilt like Gillis wanted after the finals.

Gillis was a very smart GM and too bad we couldn't rebuild with him. 

[RU SERIOUS]

12 hours ago, BlakeQuinnAndEggs said:

I don't understand..... do you not think we are on our way to a rebuild cause all signs point to it. This is not Jim Benning.

.

NO - at least not yet.  Trading 1 good player does certainly not qualify as a rebuild in anyone's books - except Jim Benning & Aqua-Lini's books.     

 

I'll be patiently waiting to see if JR actually perform the "Major surgery" on this team - which he in fact stated himself was in order and we all know is required.  Once we see substantial & meaningful change beyond 1 player, I might start to believe. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by RU SERIOUS

[combover]

Best part is rock bottom is still to come. 
 

 

[alt kilgore]

11 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

NO - at least not yet.  Trading 1 good player does certainly not qualify as a rebuild in anyone's books - except Jim Benning & Aqua-Lini's books.     

 

I'll be patiently waiting to see if JR actually perform the "Major surgery" on this team - which he in fact stated himself was in order and we all know is required.  Once we see substantial & meaningful change beyond 1 player, I might start to believe. 

 

I agree, no actual "rebuild" has happened just because we said goodbye to Horvat.  And sorry for those who think that is coming, or that the term "major surgery" meant that.   I also don't think that kind of strip down rebuild will even happen.  Not as long as Petey wants to stay here. So not under JR or Alvin.  No matter how much some here are willing to wait another ten years of misery. I respect those with that kind of fortitude.

 

But IMO Benning took us too far over the edge and basically locked us into a retool path.  Now its just a matter of more surgery, to the point that some would say its "major",  that may mean Schenn, Boeser, Myers, and maybe others like Garland, and OEL if at all possible .....and then recovery from the surgery and hope the doctors removed enough of the cancer and the new organ transplants work well enough to bump us into the top half of the NHL in the next season or two. 

 

I wanted a full rebuild for years now.  But I'm past the exhaustion.  A full rebuild would probably eventually get us into contender status (probably without Petey or Hughes, or they will be past their primes). But I'm tired of hoping and waiting. If this retool works, in a couple of years, we may not have reached that prime contender status, but with a little luck, well a lot of luck, we may get to a high second tier level who at least has a shot at the Cup. 

 

 

[Maniwaki Canuck]

"Most hated franchise in the NHL"?  No matter how true the rest of his observations may be, his underlying butthurt motivation shows there.  This guy reeks of Alberta or Toronto.

[DSVII]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:25 PM, BlakeQuinnAndEggs said:

I don't understand..... do you not think we are on our way to a rebuild cause all signs point to it. This is not Jim Benning.

.

With Jim it was an accidental rebuild when he tried to retool. It netted us petey and hughes because he never could succeed at even reaching the mushy middle.

 

In some ways we should be fearful of a more competent team that can successfully execute a flawed vision.

[BlakeQuinnAndEggs]

13 minutes ago, DSVII said:

With Jim it was an accidental rebuild when he tried to retool. It netted us petey and hughes because he never could succeed at even reaching the mushy middle.

 

In some ways we should be fearful of a more competent team that can successfully execute a flawed vision.

JB held on to assets and let them walk for free

 

He would trade away draft picks at will

 

He had no fore sight on his salary structure 

 

 

There is many ways he ruined this team. I dont see any of that with JR and PA

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:21 AM, Dazzle said:

The trade is honestly not that bad. Definitely not as bad as people keep making it out to be.

 

Guenther could be a good player or not. It's still really too early. I've mentioned before that Benning's worst trade is the Forsling one. We could've used that guy. As for Guenther, we have a plethora of wingers. We don't really NEED him.

 

I'm curious to see how OEL or Garland does in this offseason under this coaching staff. If they come back unproductive, then we can start having this discussion again. Garland is doing pretty good in this short stint.

Said this before (see: OEL under this same head coach in Arizona).  Hopefully we get a different result this time.

Edited February 11, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[ToTellTheTruth]

On 2/8/2023 at 1:09 PM, 250Integra said:

Let me sum it up for you.

 

I am of the opinion that there is enough places to point fingers but the only one's and the biggest is this;

The fans that sucked up all the very obvious bad moves and got sucked into buying more and more of the "Sting".

As long as they keep letting themselves be led around by the nose ring, following like lemmings or accepting being treated like mushrooms teams like this will continue.

In the states the arena would be half full with a team like this for this long and management would do something to correct it. Some markets in the states that are not generational might keep getting fooled but it is embarrassing the Vancouver fell into this level.

It is no wonder that Rutherford and Allvin were surprised that this market actually has knowledge and now cares how business is done.

The curtain of fallacy of how a team is run, the supposed mystery has been debunked and fans are now waking up to being suckered for a decade of bad moves, incredibly bad. It took being the worst run franchise in NHL history by one GM for that to happen.

 

While the video hits on some very evident areas it misses on things like the amount of money spent by one GM for the amount of wins. Benning spent over/close to a billion dollars for Hockey Operations, salaries of coaches, GM's, scouts, farm team, players, outside medical contractors, outside marketers/astro surfers and other expenses. In his time here, 2014 to December 5 2021 =  556 games with 242 regulation and OT wins 314 losses. 242/556 = 0.435 win percentage and that is with his first year, mostly Gillis's team still of 48 wins, take that out and 474 games and 194 wins 194/474 = 0.409 win percentage.

 

Video shows the number of first round picks, it doesn't do justice to the missed/blown picks but does mention the one traded possible Guenther, the other is a NJD selected Russian RHD defenceman Mukhamadullin, albeit a prospect yet.

 

No GM in NHL history had as many top ten and first round picks that are not here any longer in such a short tenure, essentially 2 top six picks gone for nothing, might as well not happened, three 1rst's traded away, that is like five years of building with home grown players.

 

The stench of Benning's regime, supported by some fans will linger yet for another 4 years or cost the team more of the future one way or another to fix.

 

Fans got sucked into thinking of individual players rather than the big and really important picture, the team.

 

Now there is a rookie front office that was totally unprepared for an educated (by the school of hard knocks) fan base that will support media that holds their feet to the fire and even occasionally can think like hockey executives thanks to and via the information super highway.

 

But that Benning era should also be square on the fan's shoulders too for being so naïve and gullible!

 

Fooled the fans once shame on you, Fool us twice shame on us!

Edited February 12, 2023 by ToTellTheTruth

[alt kilgore]

5 hours ago, ToTellTheTruth said:

I am of the opinion that there is enough places to point fingers but the only one's and the biggest is this;

The fans that sucked up all the very obvious bad moves and got sucked into buying more and more of the "Sting".

As long as they keep letting themselves be led around by the nose ring, following like lemmings or accepting being treated like mushrooms teams like this will continue.

In the states the arena would be half full with a team like this for this long and management would do something to correct it. Some markets in the states that are not generational might keep getting fooled but it is embarrassing the Vancouver fell into this level.

It is no wonder that Rutherford and Allvin were surprised that this market actually has knowledge and now cares how business is done.

The curtain of fallacy of how a team is run, the supposed mystery has been debunked and fans are now waking up to being suckered for a decade of bad moves, incredibly bad. It took being the worst run franchise in NHL history by one GM for that to happen.

 

While the video hits on some very evident areas it misses on things like the amount of money spent by one GM for the amount of wins. Benning spent over a billion dollars for Hockey Operations, salaries of coaches, GM's, scouts, farm team, players, outside medical contractors, outside marketers/astro surfers and other expenses. In his time here, 2014 to December 5 2021 =  556 games with 242 regulation and OT wins 312 losses. 242/556 = 0.435 win percentage and that is with his first year, mostly Gillis's team still of 48 wins, take that out and 474 games and 194 wins 194/474 = 0.409 win percentage.

 

Video shows the number of first round picks, it doesn't do justice to the missed/blown picks but does mention the one traded possible Guenther, the other is a NJD selected Russian RHD defenceman Mukhamadullin, albeit a prospect yet.

 

No GM in NHL history had as many top ten and first round picks that are not here any longer in such a short tenure, essentially 2 top six picks gone for nothing, might as well not happened, three 1rst's traded away, that is like five years of building with home grown players.

 

The stench of Benning's regime, supported by some fans will linger yet for another 4 years or cost the team more of the future one way or another to fix.

 

Fans got sucked into thinking of individual players rather than the big and really important picture, the team.

 

Now there is a rookie front office that was totally unprepared for an educated (by the school of hard knocks) fan base that will support media that holds their feet to the fire and even occasionally can think like hockey executives thanks to and via the information super highway.

 

But that Benning era should also be square on the fan's shoulders too for being so naïve and gullible!

 

Fooled the fans once shame on you, Fool us twice shame on us!

 

Lots of good points.

But I have to counter on the implication that its the fans fault. For one thing, it wasn't all fans. I was calling for a rebuild early on, and some others.  I was one of the few supporters of the late great Jason Botchford and his literal screaming about the need for a rebuild "We need an army!".  Many hear thought Botch was being too mean to Benning.

 

But even I was on board when Benning came aboard.  Why wouldn't I and other fans?  You have to trust that ownership has interviewed candidates, counciled with hockey experts, and hired the best person for the job.  He was from the successful Bruins organization who just whooped our azz.

 

So when Benning, the one with the hockey cred, seemingly came to the conclusion, after a few days on the job, that he could turn the team around quickly, with just a few tweeks, what's not to like?  Woo Hoo! Even if there was some nagging uncomfortable sensation in the back hairs of the neck.

 

The main point is that this is a dictatorship.  Even if too many fans are complacent. There is nothing we can do. Sorry but there won't be any mass exodus of fans. Not in Vancouver with our only true major sports franchise. And its hockey. So once again....in Jim we (have to) trust.   Of course we can b%&$# and moan about it to our hearts content in here, thank gawd for that!

[Baggins]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:22 PM, Dazzle said:

Horvat has signed team friendly contracts throughout his career. The moment that he signed for market value is when the Canucks fans accuse him of cashing out for money. The entitlement in this city is ridiculous.

Horvat only signed two contracts here and the first was the elc max plus bonuses. Not much choice there. I didn't see Horvats second contract as team friendly and he held out till September to get it. He signed 6 years at $5.5m after a 52 pt season. Given his age I'd call it fair with the team hoping he gets better to make it a decent or possibly even a good deal. But there's no guarantee of that happeneing. Many thought Boeser's last deal was good. I thought it depended heavily on improvement to be good. It didn't play oiut well. Neither deal in my view was really team friendly. Both were risk/reward.

[alt kilgore]

18 hours ago, Baggins said:

Horvat only signed two contracts here and the first was the elc max plus bonuses. Not much choice there. I didn't see Horvats second contract as team friendly and he held out till September to get it. He signed 6 years at $5.5m after a 52 pt season. Given his age I'd call it fair with the team hoping he gets better to make it a decent or possibly even a good deal. But there's no guarantee of that happeneing. Many thought Boeser's last deal was good. I thought it depended heavily on improvement to be good. It didn't play oiut well. Neither deal in my view was really team friendly. Both were risk/reward.

I had got to the point where I thought Horvat had to go anyways, just to shake things up. Change the culture. But I'd have been okay if he'd have stayed for a decent cap hit and term.

 

I'm pleased with how JR dealt with it.  Sticking to his guns about taking into account Bo's previous season's output averages.  Bo's always been about a 50, give or take 10, point player. And I suspect he'll settle back down to that again.

 

The last estimate of his final offer were surmised at being "under 8 million" by Dhaliwal, if you can believe him.  I'm actually pretty stoked that JR didn't bend and give Bo the 8+ x 8 he wanted.  Even 7. One can argue about the wisdom of signing Miller, but its done, and adding another high priced aging, long running, vet contract would have killed this teams plans for a retool, rebuild, whatever.

 

I get that pride is involved. And maybe Bo just couldn't take accepting an offer lower than Miller, but the fact is he could have stayed in BC with his family, who have grown up here, for a potential....for arguments sake lets make it "only" 7 million x 8 = $56 million dollar bonanza.  Much more than enough to live comfortably for the rest of his life and his family for generations. But he chose to uproot his family and travel across the continent for an extra $12 million to throw on top of the pile.  I'm not criticizing him, he's doing what he thinks is best for his family. But he had a choice.

[Fred65]

56 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I had got to the point where I thought Horvat had to go anyways, just to shake things up. Change the culture. But I'd have been okay if he'd have stayed for a decent cap hit and term.

 

I'm pleased with how JR dealt with it.  Sticking to his guns about taking into account Bo's previous season's output averages.  Bo's always been about a 50, give or take 10, point player. And I suspect he'll settle back down to that again.

 

The last estimate of his final offer were surmised at being "under 8 million" by Dhaliwal, if you can believe him.  I'm actually pretty stoked that JR didn't bend and give Bo the 8+ x 8 he wanted.  Even 7. One can argue about the wisdom of signing Miller, but its done, and adding another high priced aging, long running, vet contract would have killed this teams plans for a retool, rebuild, whatever.

 

I get that pride is involved. And maybe Bo just couldn't take accepting an offer lower than Miller, but the fact is he could have stayed in BC with his family, who have grown up here, for a potential....for arguments sake lets make it "only" 7 million x 8 = $56 million dollar bonanza.  Much more than enough to live comfortably for the rest of his life and his family for generations. But he chose to uproot his family and travel across the continent for an extra $12 million to throw on top of the pile.  I'm not criticizing him, he's doing what he thinks is best for his family. But he had a choice.

The strange thing is the difference between Bo and JT is half that difference is eated up with taxes. The difference is not that much

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

The strange thing is the difference between Bo and JT is half that difference is eated up with taxes. The difference is not that much

Teams don't care about players taxes. They only car about how much cap space they take up.

[Fred65]

39 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Teams don't care about players taxes. They only car about how much cap space they take up.

Mypoint was not what the team thinks but the suggested Horvat/Miller jealousy over who's paid the most ?