Canucks chances to make playoffs finally hits ZERO 0.00% - All but technically FINISHED for the season.

[higgyfan]

57 minutes ago, Canuck You said:

Gillis brought in players like Hamuis , Lappy, Torress, Ehrhoff, Higgy.......who were all instrumental in that run.

Gifted Sedins, Kes, Burr, Samuelson, Edler, Bieksa, Hansen, Mitchell, Schneider, Lou... + AV.

[spook007]

1 hour ago, lmm said:

yes but isn't the prez involved in other things

Didn't Gillis work to get the Canucks a better schedule?

and hasn't that collapsed since he left

(take next week as an example)

 

I would think a good scouting GM should also have the task of finding like minded, skilled scouts

that was not Gillis' forte, he was an agent, and he brought in Gilman, that most fans were happy with

Gillis did fail at reshaping the scouting staff

Benning was the scout, but he failed at picking/ retaining quality scouts 

 

if you are a great typist, you don't become president and retain your spot in the typing pool

Gillis failed at drafting ( ie hiring better scouts), but I'd still say a man, who has a forte, doesn't just suddenly drop using the gift, because he becomes a leader. 
Yes he should perhaps trust the scouts he hired, but I'm not sure, he didn't...

He wanted to see the prospects himself, and if you have an eye for a player, I think thats pretty fair... 

 

He trusted his scouts enough to take Petey?

[Hairy Kneel]

Looking back on it

We've had our fair share of dumbasses running the show. Steamer could never move up because he didn't have the 'administrative capability', or whatever. But after some of these mistakes and dumb contracts. I don't really see how it could have gotten any worse. 

All our good players fell to us from the top tier of the drafts. Easy pickens I think.

Ypu know, we're really due for a good top guy around here. So many duds. 

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, spook007 said:

Yes I remember with anger, how they suddenly looked like a SC contender at the end off the season.

Also remember Crawford hoping Canucks would drop to the bottom and draft Matthews, whom he knew from Switzerland.... But a last swan song for the Sedins scuppered that idea... and left us with OJ instead... It could hardly have gone much worse...

No doubt...and we slipped from PLD to OJ.   That draft all Benning was talking about pre-draft was exactly the type of player he was.    Wasn't our best moment.   MT just scored 20 or something goals in 22ish games and we didn't draft him.    The only part i didn't mind about that was I wasn't a big fan of his Dad.    Back when he played for WNP, seemed like he'd only drop them with Murzyn who of course was a gamer but never threw a punch.   Just got pounded on.     But would shy away from any of our guys that could actually fight.   Apple didn't fall far from the tree. 

 

It was a swing and a miss for JB.   WJ's often miss the mark.   Hope we don't do that anytime soon again (base a players value on one tournament).   Fins won ... looking at that draft again where would those guys go in a re-draft? 

Edited February 16, 2023 by IBatch

[Bounce000]

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

I'm thinking a GM is way too busy to be a scout too.  Benning, sadly, decided his "stink eye" was so good that he could watch a prospect for a few games and then make a decision to overrule what scouts (who had been tracking the prospects for years) preferred. Like OJ. and then the almost error of passing on Petey for Glass. 

Only pick GMs usually get that involved with are the first rounder.   JB was convinced going into the draft EP was the guy.   It was his best pick.   

[IBatch]

17 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

Looking back on it

We've had our fair share of dumbasses running the show. Steamer could never move up because he didn't have the 'administrative capability', or whatever. But after some of these mistakes and dumb contracts. I don't really see how it could have gotten any worse. 

All our good players fell to us from the top tier of the drafts. Easy pickens I think.

Ypu know, we're really due for a good top guy around here. So many duds. 

EP wasn't easy pickings (not many had him top ten and those that did was around 9)  Neither was Brock ; of course not a high end pick and now he's way overpaid..... or Demko or McAaan.  OJ whiff.   Podz maybe  a whiff too.   Even though he was ranked as high as 3rd and "dropped on our lap".     Hughes well he worked out but wasn't the consensus either, just around where he should have gone.     I'm glad we kept slipping in the lottery - time the hockey gods and the universe paid us back.   In what some (ok now a lot are despite early season warnings about these kids not being developed enough due to covid - everyone seems to be on the hype machine now - scouts said "this is an above average draft based on the strength of the top end players, however development makes it very tough to rank this anything but an above average draft " fast forward a couple months " deepest draft since 1979 lol kind of if you buy into the hyperbole.   A second rounder is like "a 15th overall in a normal year" i've read CDCers say that.   Good grief.    We will either hit or miss.   Not all these top ten guys are going to make the NHL and or make an impact. 

[EP Phone Home]

With that and Pearson, Mik and now OEL (hopefully shut down for the year) injured long term. we should have some cap space to use to take on some bad expiring deals for other teams so we can accumulate picks and prospects. Why the hell not? This season is a third straight write off anyways. Let’s expedite this rebuild and be the junkyard (we are already a tire fire) of bad contracts like AZ has done and get picks and prospects, instead of recklessly spending it in free agency in the summer. Let’s get creative for once. We have apparently a very smart FO so let’s get going here.  

[spook007]

13 minutes ago, IBatch said:

EP wasn't easy pickings (not many had him top ten and those that did was around 9)  Neither was Brock ; of course not a high end pick and now he's way overpaid..... or Demko or McAaan.  OJ whiff.   Podz maybe  a whiff too.   Even though he was ranked as high as 3rd and "dropped on our lap".     Hughes well he worked out but wasn't the consensus either, just around where he should have gone.     I'm glad we kept slipping in the lottery - time the hockey gods and the universe paid us back.   In what some (ok now a lot are despite early season warnings about these kids not being developed enough due to covid - everyone seems to be on the hype machine now - scouts said "this is an above average draft based on the strength of the top end players, however development makes it very tough to rank this anything but an above average draft " fast forward a couple months " deepest draft since 1979 lol kind of if you buy into the hyperbole.   A second rounder is like "a 15th overall in a normal year" i've read CDCers say that.   Good grief.    We will either hit or miss.   Not all these top ten guys are going to make the NHL and or make an impact. 

Only the ones we choose 

[IBatch]

12 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Only the ones we choose 

Well.  Darn.   Better hope some of our later rounds start finally catching up! 

[Fred65]

On the bright side. I believe since Christmas Vcr is the worse team in the entire NHL

Edited February 16, 2023 by Fred65

[ilduce39]

One thing Benning did that current group didn’t was prioritize having two capable NHL goaltenders.  IMO the biggest weakness of the team this year. 
 

Spare me the posts about the rest of the roster - I know.  But simply blaming Benning gets the current management off the hook for that error (at least regarding this year’s failure - which might turn out for the best anyways.)

[ShawnAntoski]

8 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

so again the past 8-9 years when tampa was competitive.. what did their prospect pool look like? trash.. grats he hit on players 10 years ago when tampa was still a tanking team. so why are we not complaining about briebois prospect pool during the time when his team is competitive? oh right most team that are competitive for sustain amount of years tend to have little to no prospect drafted. Did Gillis personally go watch every single drafted pick and decides this is the guy i want? the scouting departent left behind by past management did and recommend told him who to pick. would he know right off the bat the player he was recommended to draft would turn out to be a dud?? prolly not for 4-5 years based on where they were picking.. he wouldn't even have time to replace the scouting department because he wouldn't even know his scouting department recommended him all duds.

 

gillis biggest failure was to recognize his scouting department sucked early on and replace them. not his drafting sucks because he wasn't the one that scouted and decided to draft so and so. compared to benning? gillis failure is minuscle compared to benning.. benning literally sucked at everything including drafting and set this franchise so far back they might end up tearing it right down to the ground if this current management can't convince EP to stay. 

My main reason for looking past your 9 year limit, is because it was mostly Yzerman and Lawton that built up the roster and Brisebois didn’t become the GM until 2018.  His first draft was 2019.  Basically, Tampa has a better drafting & development program vs the Canucks and they have the Cups to prove it.

 

Agree to disagree on Gillis cause he was the GM & PoHO and the choice of who to ultimately draft, is STILL on him and if he decides to go with a scout, the choice is still his.  As for the bad scouting department that is also a part of his legacy for not recognizing it and fixing it.   

Edited February 17, 2023 by ShawnAntoski

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Only pick GMs usually get that involved with are the first rounder.   JB was convinced going into the draft EP was the guy.   It was his best pick.   

It’s been posted multiple times in several threads the history of the Petey pick. And Benning was on Glass. 

[EddieVedder]

Even if we win every remaining game?

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, Alflives said:

It’s been posted multiple times in several threads the history of the Petey pick. And Benning was on Glass. 

Lol.  Posted sure.   But like Timra, I know the history of EPs draft year - as soon as they got the tip and Delorme went to watch him play, EP became their man.   That was early on in the draft year.    Glass and Valardi were the CDC's coveted picks - myself included.   Didn't like the EP pick at all.   159lbs, and off board for a 5th. 

 

Edit:  Didn't like the Hughes pick either, Bouchard or Dobson for me.   Too small.    OJ wasn't even on my radar - PLD was the guy Benning wouldn't shut up about, and was ranked right around where we were supposed to go.   MT was ranked 2-3.   What a joke that was.   I'd have drafted Chychrun way before any other D based on a year prior he was considered a first overall, and already had a man body to play right away if he could.    

 

Point is the GM has a lot of input into the first rounder, after that it's usually left to the scouting staff.  JB obviously wasn't a normal GM, watching tape, was very active with the process "what about Lind?", that year was supposed to be gone around where we picked Brock.   Hogs was also a late first rounder ranked, as was Gadjovich by some.

 

It's early yet, but so far JB, compared to his peers over the same time period, once average drafting position is considered, came out above average, and that doesn't factor in having all his picks.   Traded two firsts.   Down one second overall (need to add the ones we actually got back ourselves, there were several).   

 

In the end I suspect that's going to change once the Miller and OEL picks are playing in the NHL.    And that's a huge reason why we are in the pickle we are now.   Imagine if instead he hoarded picks?   Bet our D would be fine.  

 

Edit:  EPs rookie year, he was on THN's cover, as the main article they did pages of going over his history, as a person, player and the process the Canucks had in "discovering" him.     It wasn't Delorme.   It was our roots and former staff that did it.    Kudos to Delorme for going there and watching.   They kept it under wraps as to not draw attention.   3 games was enough to convince them he was their guy.    One of the neatest parts of the article was comparing him to Guy Lafleur as in growing up in a remote area without special coaching and skills training but unlimited ice time to hone his skills on his own.    The Alien moniker fits because he's self taught, and does things differently.    We can't take that away from JB.   His staff convinced him.    And he trusted that.    The only what if I have is if we won the lottery.   Consensus number 1-2 was Patrick and Hershier.   Would we have gone that far off board?   I'd imagine the CDC would have lost their minds if we took a 9-15th consensus guy with our very first, first overall ... EP at 5 was also a bit surprising at the time ...  no team had him expect maybe the Rangers in the top ten).  All of those teams admitted they completely whiffed on EP other than the Rangers who said they had some interest.    In a re-draft Makar-EP 1-2. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by IBatch

[Westcoasting]

19 hours ago, Alflives said:

It’s been posted multiple times in several threads the history of the Petey pick. And Benning was on Glass. 

You’re absolutely right! Chris Gear even had a article on this very thing about how a good scout sticks his neck out to argue endlessly for a skinny kid who’s going to make it against an already built player who others see as the best pick. And guess who’s son was a scout and lived in Portland where Cody Glass played… it was a divisive draft and the side who’s chose and insisted on Pettersson were all gone before Benning was finally let go . 

[Toews]

11 hours ago, IBatch said:

Lol.  Posted sure.   But like Timra, I know the history of EPs draft year - as soon as they got the tip and Delorme went to watch him play, EP became their man.   That was early on in the draft year.    Glass and Valardi were the CDC's coveted picks - myself included.   Didn't like the EP pick at all.   159lbs, and off board for a 5th. 

Linden was quoted as saying that it was Brackett's show and they had EP second in the draft right after Makar. The quote from Benning stated that Delorme was the one who first brought up Pettersson. Personally I can't say I give Delorme too much credit, he may have been first to the party but its hardly like the Edler pick where they found him in some remote area in Sweden. EP was already making a name for himself in Allsvenskan in his D-1 year. Delorme was also the guy in charge for all those years under Gillis and drafted jack squat for us despite having complete autonomy over the scouting department. The fact that he is still in this organization to this day is just baffling to me.

[Mackcanuck]

Our special teams PK are the tank commander

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Mackcanuck

[DSVII]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:58 AM, Alflives said:

A GM should not manage down. He should focus on hiring the best scouts and then give them whatever they need to do their job the best. 

More than that. A GM should not insist on being the smartest guy in the room and force a qualified head scout like Brackett out because he wasn't willing to give the team autonomy to work.

 

https://theathletic.com/1845528/2020/05/29/autonomy-and-a-breakdown-in-trust-why-judd-brackett-is-leaving-the-canucks/

 

Quote

From 2017 through to the club’s most recent draft in 2019, the Canucks’ approach at the draft table shifted. Brackett’s input into the process resonated more loudly in shaping the flow of scouting meetings and the ultimate composition of the draft list going forward.

 

There’s a sharp contrast that’s immediately evident when you look at the club’s three late-round picks in 2016 — mostly overagers or toolsy players who struggled to produce at the junior level — with what came after it in 2017, 2018 and 2019. There was a renewed emphasis on high-end skill and production. It was evident throughout the club’s draft order.

 

Much has been made locally of the debate about the fifth overall pick in 2017. The Canucks selected Elias Pettersson, he changed everything in Vancouver, and the rest is history.

 

Credible whispers have persisted, however, that Benning preferred Cody Glass. There are internal voices who believe that, if Benning had his way, Glass would’ve been the Canucks’ pick.

 

It’s a bit of a misnomer to look at draft discussions or list construction in this manner. It’s too simplistic.

 

The process of draft preparation and building a list is very rarely as black and white as one player versus another player. More often than not, this kind of analysis is a trap that clouds the issue rather than clarifies it.

 

The fact remains that Glass was never ahead of Pettersson on the Canucks’ draft list, though both prospects were highly regarded.

In the summer of 2018, Trevor Linden departed the organization. It was framed as amicable. It wasn’t.

 

And on Day 2 of the 2019 draft, Brackett was reportedly “stripped of his authority,” according to TSN 1040’s Matt Sekeres.

On Friday’s conference call, we posed the question of what occurred on Day 2 of the draft to Benning and he didn’t seem to be sure about precisely what we were getting at.

 

“After Day 1, we had a meeting like we always do after the first day of the draft and we talked about what we want to do going into Day 2,” Benning said. “We really liked Nils Hoglander a lot and we were hoping he was going to be there for us and he ended up being there for us, if that’s what you’re talking about. I don’t know what else there is to talk about.”

 

Based on multiple conversations, it does seem as if the list was amended following the first day of the draft. Hoglander was bumped up the list. This isn’t uncommon.

 

Benning supposedly pushed hard and was set on taking Hoglander in the second round if he was available. The list was amended.

It’s hard to square how this relatively commonplace incident could be construed as Brackett being “stripped of his authority.” Perhaps it was just a bright, shining indicator light revealing that the draft process of the Linden era had changed. Or, admittedly, perhaps there’s more to this story.

 

What is clear, though, is that by mid-July — consistent with Sekeres’ timeline — the industry began to wonder if Brackett was on his way out in Vancouver.

 

Negotiations between Brackett and the club continued into the early parts of winter. Eventually the Canucks, as Sportsnet 650’s Satiar Shah first reported, tendered a two-year offer, which Brackett declined.

 

“It started earlier in the year. We had offered him a new two-year extension, he rejected it,” Benning said. “And in rejecting it, he wanted certain things — conditions — that he has, you know, he has full autonomy in his roles, but he asked for some things that I wanted to be involved in and wasn’t willing to give up.”

 

As Brackett has now confirmed, the specific items that Brackett wanted in negotiations pertained to autonomy of personnel and process.

The club parted ways with four scouts in the summer of 2019, including Doug Gasper, Dan Palango, Chris McDonald and Paul Gallagher and hired three additional scouts. Brackett is believed to have had input on the incoming hires that replaced those scouts, but the decision the club made to let go of four members of the amateur scouting staff looms large in the wake of Brackett’s pointed comments on Friday about having input on amateur scouting personnel.

 

Brackett responded to multiple text message inquiries from The Athletic with a link to his prepared statement on Twitter.

In early January, the Brackett story came to the fore in public when “The Province’s” Patrick Johnston surfaced the subject during the Canucks’ amateur scouting meetings in Florida. Talks had sputtered by that point and trust continued to break down between the two sides.

Ironically enough Benning traded away every 1st round pick after he let Brackett leave. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by DSVII