Devron Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Just now, lmm said: maybe Schenn is trying to tank his trade value maybe he is just thinking about babies There’s always the human side of the game. I don’t think it would be on purpose but subconsciously sure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 20 minutes ago, Phil_314 said: You lost me at Schenn not belonging in the top-4. Livingstone would be a good add, whether he makes the team is another question, so let's be real here and not etch his name in stone among our top-4. Regarding Graves, he gets top-4/ 1st pair PK deployment in NJ on an upstart team, if they want to re-sign him I can't see him leaving (much less for a bottom-feeder like ourselves) so why do you think we can land him? This isn't fantasy or NHL 23, you can't just scoop any player you want because they're available, they have to want to be on your team. I have no idea what you are trying to say. The first sentence doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the rest of your post. Schenn doesn’t belong in a top four role, at least not if you want to be a good team. He is a 3rd pairing guy at this point in his career, and is really useful in that spot. Just because we might not be able to fully retool our D in one offseason, it still doesn’t mean the guys we slot in there by default because we don’t have a better option really belong in a top four role. Myers, Stillman, Poolman, Dermott, Bear, Schenn, OEL right now are all 3rd pairing level guys at best. I have hope that with the right partner OEL can become a 2nd pairing guy again. His drop off was so steep this year, I don’t even know if he is healthy. Livingstone if we got him should also be pencilled in on a 3rd pair, or even a #7 so he has a year of playing maybe 40-60 games filling in for injuries instead of going from an easy college schedule right to a full 82 game grind. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 20 minutes ago, lmm said: Livingston is winning the Calder, Hart and Norris next season, it's just a matter of if it is with us btw who is this guy? You don't know? He's Rory 2.0!!!!! #Vote4Rory 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsbutcher Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 OEL out for weeks, good news 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Provost said: I have no idea what you are trying to say. The first sentence doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the rest of your post. Schenn doesn’t belong in a top four role, at least not if you want to be a good team. He is a 3rd pairing guy at this point in his career, and is really useful in that spot. Just because we might not be able to fully retool our D in one offseason, it still doesn’t mean the guys we slot in there by default because we don’t have a better option really belong in a top four role. Myers, Stillman, Poolman, Dermott, Bear, Schenn, OEL right now are all 3rd pairing level guys at best. I have hope that with the right partner OEL can become a 2nd pairing guy again. His drop off was so steep this year, I don’t even know if he is healthy. Livingstone if we got him should also be pencilled in on a 3rd pair, or even a #7 so he has a year of playing maybe 40-60 games filling in for injuries instead of going from an easy college schedule right to a full 82 game grind. I probably should have formatted it differently and put it in a separate row, but the Schenn comment was about something else poster Petey said. I get that in our mishmash group we likely have many 3rd pair guys, and that is sad and I want improvement as much as anyone else. Fact of the matter is though, practically speaking (a.k.a. without gutting our already bleak future) how do we fix it, and how much of the status quo would you be willing to work with? Sometimes teams just need to throw pieces at the roster and see what sticks best, around the functional pieces. Case in point, look at the Oilers; it's great that now they have Hyman/ Nuge/ Kane alongside Leon and Connor in their top-6, but before that (and even now) do you think they don't try McLeod/ Holloway/ Kostin/ Puljujarvi/ Yamamoto (and before when it was Puljujarvi/ Kassian, etc.)? Of course they do, because it doesn't make sense to have underachieving projects on the payroll who don't play, but (before Hyman and Kane arrived) they tried their best to pair them alongside the functional guys because you still need to put your best 12 up front and best 6 on the back end. Same with their blueline, before Ceci arrived to form their shutdown pair with Nurse they still needed to put guys out; same with their 2nd pair, which had Kris Russell recently and he was strictly a shot blocker but didn't help Barrie AT ALL with puck-moving. You still need to ice your best lineup, and yes "by default" if there's nothing else available. The alternative is simply unrealistic (also re: Livingstone I'd be down to start him in the AHL). Edited February 18 by Phil_314 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 44 minutes ago, Phil_314 said: You lost me at Schenn not belonging in the top-4. Livingstone would be a good add, whether he makes the team is another question, so let's be real here and not etch his name in stone among our top-4. Regarding Graves, he gets top-4/ 1st pair PK deployment in NJ on an upstart team, if they want to re-sign him I can't see him leaving (much less for a bottom-feeder like ourselves) so why do you think we can land him? This isn't fantasy or NHL 23, you can't just scoop any player you want because they're available, they have to want to be on your team. Why do you feel Schenn belongs in the top 4? He's a bottom pairing Dman who is being forced to play top 4 minutes because we have nobody else to fill the hole. Same with Myers, OEL and Bear. Schenn would play alot better if he was used on the 3rd pairing and playing less minutes and be a top PK'er. As for Graves, sure he may not come here. New Jersey has Hughes and Nemec coming up next year, so they may move away from Graves to make room for the young guys. I'm not saying Graves is a lock to come to Vancouver, but that is the type of player we need in our top 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, Nuckin Kingsly said: Lol that’s what you took out of it? Just because you are depth in one team, doesn’t mean that’s the player you will become or are. Bobrovski, recchi, samsonov, just to make a few that we’re waiver pickups. Not even depth players. He is a top four dman on some teams, and especially ours… you think we will just acquire a whole bunch of stud dmen within the year? With where we are with our cap? No… he’s a reliable defenceman that can be used accordingly I'm not saying he isn't a reliable Dman and isn't useful. What I am saying is he doesn't belong on the top pairing with Hughes, which is exactly where he is playing tonight. He is a useful Dman who is a bottom pairing guy who can move up to the 2nd pairing if we need him too. But he isn't a top 4 guy. We have lots of bottom pairing Dmen. We don't need to pay Bear $2.5 million to play that role. We can bring Schenn back for half that amount and have Livingstone rotating on the 3rd pairing as well. Livingstone looks to be a guy who can jump into the NHL right away. He is from BC. We need to prioritize to sign him as soon as his season in the NCAA is over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bell Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Good for Wolanin. In typical Canuck fashion their season is done now time to take all Abby's good player's and tank their season too/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: Bear shouldn't be anywhere near the top 4. Neither should Myers, OEL or Schenn. This is why our defence is so bad. We need legit top 4 Dmen. I don't want to pay Bear $2.5 million so he can play with Hughes and fill a spot. He shouldn't be in that position. JR needs to completely overhaul the D this summer. An OEL buyout would be the start of that. Moving on from Myers, Dermott and Bear continues that plan. The only 2 guys I would actually keep on the roster are Hughes and Stillman and maybe Schenn if he wants to come back. Stillman and Schenn are your bottom pairing guys. So we need THREE top 4 Dmen. We probably can't get all 3 in one summer, so most likely we have to run with Myers for one more year and then use that money in the summer of 2024. For this summer, we need to bring in Jake Livingstone and sign one UFA guy. I'd go hard after Ryan Graves. He would replace OEL on the second pairing. They you need to make a trade. Boeser, Hoglander, the Islanders 1st round pick are all in play. JR needs to hit a home run on a trade that brings in another top 4 Dman. This is right. But Allvin will take 2 years to accomplish this. 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: Bear was the 7th Dman on Carolina but we are supposed to pay him $2.5 million to play with Hughes on the top pairing? That doesn't make any sense. Bear is a bottom pairing Dman. We don't need to pay him $2.5 million to be a 5/6 guy... Bear went thru arbitration last year. His QO was $2.4 (which was on a contract he signed with the Oilers) and he signed a 1 year contract for $2.2 with Carolina after arbitration and hardly played. He was traded to Van with $400k retained, hence his $1.8M cap hit. I think you are right that Bear is going to want $2.5M. Allvin needs to be disciplined. He can get serviceable bottom pair players for $1M. Dermott (1.5) and Stillman (1.35) are at the high end. I would expect both Bear and Dermott to not be qualified. Stillman has one more year on his present contract. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 3 minutes ago, Bell said: Good for Wolanin. In typical Canuck fashion their season is done now time to take all Abby's good player's and tank their season too/ You need to reward guys like him and Pederson when they’re playing at the level they were. It sucks that Abby loses good players but it ensures they’ll be able to sign good ones in the future. Players wanna go where they’re given opportunities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktcy2 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Dermott, bear, Stillman etc. are guys that don’t move the needle at all. They are just third pairing guys on a bad team and basically 7/8 on a good team. We only have one good top 4 d man on this team. It’s sad 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesB Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 3 hours ago, Maniwaki Canuck said: He [Wolanin] deserved to make the team out of camp. 2 hours ago, Phil_314 said: What about Bear? PS. I've reduced my frequency of tuning in to games lately so this positive talk about Stillman is news to me, has he been that good? My thoughts. 1. Agree with @Maniwaki Canuck. Wolanin had an excellent pre-season and I thought he deserved to make the team to start the season. He has been excellent all year and I am surprised he was not given a look earlier. Of course, he is an "offensive defenceman" and with Hughes and OEL on the left side there was not a lot of room for him on the team until OEL was injured. Also, right now I want Abby to win and the big team to lose, and bringing up Wolanin hurts both those objectives. But he certainly deserves a shot in the NHL. 2. In response to @Phil_314, Stillman struggled early in the year and took a lot of criticism on CDC. He has been better lately but it is still a stretch to call him "good". Based on the numbers and the eye test his recent play suggests that he might be (barely) a legitimate third pairing NHL D on a decent team. A second pairing of Stillman and Myers is still a scary prospect (but a good prospect for team tank). He is still pretty young (24) and is signed for one more year on a cheap contract and then is an RFA. I didn't like the trade that brought him to the Canucks but he might turn out to be useful down the road. 3. Dermott has been disappointing. He has had one injury problem after another and I am not sure he was every 100% this year. At no time this year did he actually look good. With the benefit of hindsight, the Canucks would have been better off keeping the 3rd round pick but, at the time, it seemed like a reasonable trade. 4. Obviously OEL is untradeable. Buying him out this summer would be a bad idea. It would generate a significant cap space gain next season but the Canucks would be paying a big cap penalty for a long time after that. Also, while OEL is obviously not worth his cap hit, he is can still be a useful (3rd pairing D, 2nd unit PP) player. The trouble is that he has been asked to do too much. He often been embarrassed playing against top forwards (especially fast ones) but he would be a very good 3rd pairing LD. The Canucks should retain him for one more year before seriously considering a buyout. Each extra year cuts down the buyout length and cost a lot. 5. Bear has been a good acquisition. The problem is that he is an RFA this summer and has arbitration rights. That is one reason Carolina was willing to trade him for such a small return. The Canucks would love to keep him at his current cap hit of 1.8 million but would not be happy to pay him something on the order of 3 to 4 million. They will try to re-sign him but will not want to go to arbitration. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguez Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Happy Wolanin is getting a shot,hope he makes an impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 20 minutes ago, ktcy2 said: Dermott, bear, Stillman etc. are guys that don’t move the needle at all. They are just third pairing guys on a bad team and basically 7/8 on a good team. We only have one good top 4 d man on this team. It’s sad Yup. We need to buyout OEL and trade Myers at the 2024 TDL. Let the rest of those bottom D go as free agents. Just build around Hughes. Hughes, Livingston New, New New, New New 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 22 minutes ago, JamesB said: My thoughts. 1. Agree with @Maniwaki Canuck. Wolanin had an excellent pre-season and I thought he deserved to make the team to start the season. He has been excellent all year and I am surprised he was not given a look earlier. Of course, he is an "offensive defenceman" and with Hughes and OEL on the left side there was not a lot of room for him on the team until OEL was injured. Also, right now I want Abby to win and the big team to lose, and bringing up Wolanin hurts both those objectives. But he certainly deserves a shot in the NHL. 2. In response to @Phil_314, Stillman struggled early in the year and took a lot of criticism on CDC. He has been better lately but it is still a stretch to call him "good". Based on the numbers and the eye test his recent play suggests that he might be (barely) a legitimate third pairing NHL D on a decent team. A second pairing of Stillman and Myers is still a scary prospect (but a good prospect for team tank). He is still pretty young (24) and is signed for one more year on a cheap contract and then is an RFA. I didn't like the trade that brought him to the Canucks but he might turn out to be useful down the road. 3. Dermott has been disappointing. He has had one injury problem after another and I am not sure he was every 100% this year. At no time this year did he actually look good. With the benefit of hindsight, the Canucks would have been better off keeping the 3rd round pick but, at the time, it seemed like a reasonable trade. 4. Obviously OEL is untradeable. Buying him out this summer would be a bad idea. It would generate a significant cap space gain next season but the Canucks would be paying a big cap penalty for a long time after that. Also, while OEL is obviously not worth his cap hit, he is can still be a useful (3rd pairing D, 2nd unit PP) player. The trouble is that he has been asked to do too much. He often been embarrassed playing against top forwards (especially fast ones) but he would be a very good 3rd pairing LD. The Canucks should retain him for one more year before seriously considering a buyout. Each extra year cuts down the buyout length and cost a lot. 5. Bear has been a good acquisition. The problem is that he is an RFA this summer and has arbitration rights. That is one reason Carolina was willing to trade him for such a small return. The Canucks would love to keep him at his current cap hit of 1.8 million but would not be happy to pay him something on the order of 3 to 4 million. They will try to re-sign him but will not want to go to arbitration. In regards to OEL, buying him out one year later does not save us any money. In fact , it is actually worse. Let's look at this in more detail. If we keep OEL next year, then he is on the books for $7.26 million. He would be taking a spot on the 3rd pairing at that cost. It would severely hinder any improvement we can make to our D with that massive cap hit being paid to a 3rd pairing guy. If we choose to go this route, then next year we are doomed to another tank year with a horrible defence that can't be fixed. Also, if we choose this route and then buy out OEL in the summer of 2024, the cap hit is as follows: 2024-25 $8,000,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 $5,944,444 $2,028,889 $276,667 2025-26 $5,250,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 $3,194,444 $4,448,889 $606,667 2026-27 $5,250,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 $3,194,444 $4,448,889 $606,667 2027-28 $0 $0 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 -$2,055,556 $1,808,889 $246,667 2028-29 $0 $0 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 -$2,055,556 $1,808,889 $246,667 2029-30 $0 $0 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 -$2,055,556 $1,808,889 $246,667 So, in 2024 his cap hit is over $2 million on the buyout, then $4.4 million for 2 years, then another $1.8 million for 3 more years. So, to summarize, if we are keeping OEL next year and buying him out in the summer of 2024 we would need to pay him his full pop of $7.26 million next year PLUS an additional $16,353,334 over the following 6 years, so a total of $23,613,334 over a 7-year period. Conversely, if we simply buy him out this summer of 2023, almost his entire cap hit is wiped out for next year. We can then use that money and that roster spot to get a legit top 4 Dman in his place. We can maybe have somewhat of a reasonable defence next year and our team can take the next step. The cost for buying him out this summer is as follows: 2023-24 $10,500,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 $8,083,333 $146,667 $20,000 2024-25 $8,000,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 $5,583,333 $2,346,667 $320,000 2025-26 $5,250,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 $2,833,333 $4,766,667 $650,000 2026-27 $5,250,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 $2,833,333 $4,766,667 $650,000 2027-28 $0 $0 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 -$2,416,667 $2,126,667 $290,000 2028-29 $0 $0 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 -$2,416,667 $2,126,667 $290,000 2029-30 $0 $0 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 -$2,416,667 $2,126,667 $290,000 2030-31 $0 $0 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 -$2,416,667 $2,126,667 $290,000 The total cost to buy out OEL this summer of 2023 is $20,533,336 over an 8-year period. So, we actually save $3,079,998 if we buyout OEL this summer versus waiting one more year. The only difference is the buyout lasts one year longer. So, by buying out OEL this summer versus in summer of 2024, we save over $3 million, and we are able to start fixing our defence one year sooner. If we need to replace OEL next year with a $5 million Dman, then obviously the cost for the replacement adds an extra $2 million to the overall cost, but that is negligible compared to being able to fix our defence one year sooner. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: In regards to OEL, buying him out one year later does not save us any money. In fact , it is actually worse. Let's look at this in more detail. If we keep OEL next year, then he is on the books for $7.26 million. He would be taking a spot on the 3rd pairing at that cost. It would severely hinder any improvement we can make to our D with that massive cap hit being paid to a 3rd pairing guy. If we choose to go this route, then next year we are doomed to another tank year with a horrible defence that can't be fixed. Also, if we choose this route and then buy out OEL in the summer of 2024, the cap hit is as follows: 2024-25 $8,000,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 $5,944,444 $2,028,889 $276,667 2025-26 $5,250,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 $3,194,444 $4,448,889 $606,667 2026-27 $5,250,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 $3,194,444 $4,448,889 $606,667 2027-28 $0 $0 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 -$2,055,556 $1,808,889 $246,667 2028-29 $0 $0 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 -$2,055,556 $1,808,889 $246,667 2029-30 $0 $0 $0 $2,055,556 $2,055,556 -$2,055,556 $1,808,889 $246,667 So, in 2024 his cap hit is over $2 million on the buyout, then $4.4 million for 2 years, then another $1.8 million for 3 more years. So, to summarize, if we are keeping OEL next year and buying him out in the summer of 2024 we would need to pay him his full pop of $7.26 million next year PLUS an additional $16,353,334 over the following 6 years, so a total of $23,613,334 over a 7-year period. Conversely, if we simply buy him out this summer of 2023, almost his entire cap hit is wiped out for next year. We can then use that money and that roster spot to get a legit top 4 Dman in his place. We can maybe have somewhat of a reasonable defence next year and our team can take the next step. The cost for buying him out this summer is as follows: 2023-24 $10,500,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 $8,083,333 $146,667 $20,000 2024-25 $8,000,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 $5,583,333 $2,346,667 $320,000 2025-26 $5,250,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 $2,833,333 $4,766,667 $650,000 2026-27 $5,250,000 $8,250,000 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 $2,833,333 $4,766,667 $650,000 2027-28 $0 $0 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 -$2,416,667 $2,126,667 $290,000 2028-29 $0 $0 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 -$2,416,667 $2,126,667 $290,000 2029-30 $0 $0 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 -$2,416,667 $2,126,667 $290,000 2030-31 $0 $0 $0 $2,416,667 $2,416,667 -$2,416,667 $2,126,667 $290,000 The total cost to buy out OEL this summer of 2023 is $20,533,336 over an 8-year period. So, we actually save $3,079,998 if we buyout OEL this summer versus waiting one more year. The only difference is the buyout lasts one year longer. So, by buying out OEL this summer versus in summer of 2024, we save over $3 million, and we are able to start fixing our defence one year sooner. If we need to replace OEL next year with a $5 million Dman, then obviously the cost for the replacement adds an extra $2 million to the overall cost, but that is negligible compared to being able to fix our defence one year sooner. I doubt our owner will cut the cheque to buyout OEL, but he bloody well should. He’s the one who was pushing Benning to make these win now trades. He should be there to fix that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RU SERIOUS Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Never thought I would see the day that Stillman has more value than Dermott. The trade that didn't make sense at all was trading a 3rd round pick for Dermott... Wonder who came up with those two "Whiz-Bang" trades???? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Alflives said: I doubt our owner will cut the cheque to buyout OEL, but he bloody well should. He’s the one who was pushing Benning to make these win now trades. He should be there to fix that one. Aquilini will have to cut a cheque regardless. Either he pays OEL another $29,040,000 over the newt 4 years, or he can write him a cheque in the summer for $20,533,336 and get rid of him in 5 months. Edited February 18 by Elias Pettersson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 minute ago, RU SERIOUS said: Wonder who came up with those two "Whiz-Bang" trades???? Hopefully we learned where our club truly is and trade high picks for attempts at quick fixes (bringing in 25 year old players as the key to a trade return) is over. The return on the Bo trade might indicate a switch in philosophy of direction. Futures will be the key, and they will be kept. I didn’t like we gave up our recently acquired 3rd for Dermott, or gave up a s3cond to dumperoo Dickinson so we could bring in Stillman. Or was that how we got Bear? Or did that get us both? Regardless, it wasn’t what we should have been doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Aquilini will have to cut a cheque regardless. Either he pays OEL another $29,040,000 over the newt 4 years, or he can write him a cheque in the summer for $20,533,336 and get rid of him in 5 months. Good point. Can we buyout two players? We could do OEL and Garland. Garland signed as a U26 so isn’t his buyout very team friendly? We could clear 12 mil for next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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