Exciting years going forward

[jyu]

2 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

 

Agreed. Im of the opinion that this management team has done a very good job, and they are being criticized for a few reasons:

a) Drance has convinced everyone that the key to success is ripping it all down to the studs and starting again (stupid to do when you have 2 franchise players and a potential franchise goalie)

I think you are giving this Drance guy too much credit.

 

IMO, most fans here belong to two groups: 1) about 20-30% of the people want to go for it right away and these are typically people that are in love with Miller and 2) about 40-50% want a short two year retool since Petey, Hughes, Demko are great foundations and the team is too good to bottom out with them on the team and why two year retool? That happens to be when we can free ourselves of most of our cap problems. Then, there are minority that complain at everything no matter what, but only 10-20% belong in this group.  I think majority of the fans acknowledge the potential greatness of 40, 43, and 35 and are not wanting a full fledged rebuild nor do fans think it's possible with those three players on the team. 

 

IMO, most fans like myself realize that there are holes to be filled but we are cap crunched so while the cap problems resolve, we understand that we are not able to sufficiently address those holes to build towards contention. So at least for me, I'm fine with retooling and draft high so that we can get another core player or two over the next two drafts and stockpiling picks, young players, and cap space to acquire any missing pieces in around 2024 when we have identified new core players and are ready to go for it. Those retooling years could also be used to develop younger and cheaper players like Hogs, Podz, Kravs, Kilm, Aman, and Raty to replace the existing more expensive players like Boeser and Garland and fill vacant positions like 3C/4C so that we don't need to acquire those positions from outside by trading away draft capital/young prospects and in general, minimize the number of pieces that need to be acquired from outside.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

c) People are pissed about the last decade and have 0 faith in a retool based on Bennings horrifying retool jobs. Which is so dumb, considering the success that Vegas and Seattle have had - despite not having had 5 years of stocking up on draft picks. 

Benning didn't do a great job but to compare to Seattle and Vegas who paid 650 mil and 500 mil to start with clean cap efficient roster, is a bit unfair IMO.

 

2 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

 

This management team was given a poorly constructed roster with some fantastic building blocks (Petey, Hughes, Demko). Unfortnuately, the roster was also saddled with bad contracts, and to make matters worse, the prospect pool was empty. 

Yes. The current cap problems are mostly inherited from the previous management but the current management have not made it easy on themselves. Re-signing Miller and Boeser for example, Mikheyev and Kuz, now brought in Hronek. Putting aside whether this signings and acquisitions are good or bad (I think mostly good), they did try to do the difficult task of adding high salaried players while being cap crunched. 

 

They could have made it easy on themselves by saying, "we are going to undo the cap problem first and do minimal upgrade on the roster" but they chose the hard way.

 

I commend them for it and wish them good luck. It won't be easy.

 

2 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

 

Here's what they've accomplished:

- Added a ton to the prospect pool in all positions, taking us from probably the worst prospect pool in the league to somewhere in the 15-18 range. We actually have defensemen growing in the system now who can step into our lineup in a few years. Not half bad for one year. And they did this without getting rid of any core players. 

- They recognized that Petey and Miller can be the 1 and 2 C's, so Bo Horvat was the redundant commodity that could bring us in a top-4 RHD (Bo + 2nd for Hronek + Raty + Beauvillier + 4th ended up essentially being the deal)

- Made very smart asset management decisions - refusing to lose anyone without getting at least a pick. Got a pick for Motte, Schenn, Lazar, even Hamonic. They picked up a 1st line winger who can put up 40 goals, in Kuzmenko, without giving up ANY ASSETS. They also picked up Mikheyev, a top6 forward who can kill penalties, again, no cost. 

YEs, very encouraging. They are quite decisive and I like that about this group.

 

2 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

 

People complain: oh we're capped out. We aren't really. We could have moved Garland and Boeser at the deadline with some retention. Mgmnt decided to wait until teams have contracts expiring in the offseason to move them, when it will be way easier to do so. Myers will be moveable once his bonus has been paid and he only costs a new team 1m in salary for his final year. Theres 18m in space there they'll get this offseason. 

There's two sides to this but no one can predict the future, just projections. Last season, they failed to improve the defence and admitted that was because clearing cap was much harder than they thought. 

 

This offseason, hopefully it's a different story and that you are right. We can clear Garland pretty easily I think but he is a good player and you don't want to give assets away cheaply -- that's just not how you build a contender with inefficient moves. Boeser with retention may be tradeable in the offseason or maybe not. Myers will need a sweetener but hopefully his contract is attractive to cap floor teams -- by the way, how many teams are considered cap floor teams next season? Arizona... and?

 

2 hours ago, eeeeergh said:

 

Aaron rome wasnt built in a day. But this is pretty dang impressive for 1 year. 

 

And the Hronek deal was a good one. Top-4 RHD cost that much, sorry. 

 

/End rant

Yes, I think they are making good moves but they are in a tough situation and fans have the right to be concerned. I like their moves but their first offseason was a bit of a disappointment so they haven't fully earned the trust of the fans yet.

 

If they pull off the right moves and clear a lot of cap and upgrade the defence, fans will come around.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by jyu

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Canucks Curse said:

we need a fire dance petition

Just move him to a show that covers the NHL in general, he is too emotionally invested in watching the Canucks crash and burn to be the host of a show called Canucks Hour.  

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, nergish said:

Dude was such a wiener in that Allvin press conference. 

Why would an NHL GM have to justify making a trade for a top-4 RHD to some punk reporter, especially when that has been the glaring team need for literal years.

 

But he kept harping on it, trying to get the man to admit he had "sinned".

 

 

Exactly, why would he need to justify himself to some useless no account parasite puke?

[EdgarM]

46 minutes ago, jyu said:

 

 

Yes. The current cap problems are mostly inherited from the previous management but the current management have not made it easy on themselves. Re-signing Miller and Boeser for example, Mikheyev and Kuz, now brought in Hronek. Putting aside whether this signings and acquisitions are good or bad (I think mostly good), they did try to do the difficult task of adding high salaried players while being cap crunched. 

 

They could have made it easy on themselves by saying, "we are going to undo the cap problem first and do minimal upgrade on the roster" but they chose the hard way.

 

I commend them for it and wish them good luck. It won't be easy.

 

YEs, very encouraging. They are quite decisive and I like that about this group.

 

There's two sides to this but no one can predict the future, just projections. Last season, they failed to improve the defence and admitted that was because clearing cap was much harder than they thought. 

 

This offseason, hopefully it's a different story and that you are right. We can clear Garland pretty easily I think but he is a good player and you don't want to give assets away cheaply -- that's just not how you build a contender with inefficient moves. Boeser with retention may be tradeable in the offseason or maybe not. Myers will need a sweetener but hopefully his contract is attractive to cap floor teams -- by the way, how many teams are considered cap floor teams next season? Arizona... and?

 

Yes, I think they are making good moves but they are in a tough situation and fans have the right to be concerned. I like their moves but their first offseason was a bit of a disappointment so they haven't fully earned the trust of the fans yet.

 

If they pull off the right moves and clear a lot of cap and upgrade the defence, fans will come around.

 

I see the Miller/Boeser  issue ,which was thrown at them , that they tried to do the best with what was given to them.

They offered Miller and Bo reasonable offers. Bo was adamant on his price and Miller took a cut. Pretty obvious on which one to keep as they were not going to be able to keep both. I think you also get a player with more character if they are taking a cut for the "Team".

I think they thought they had more in Boeser. I think they thought once he recovered from injury, his play would improve. I don't think they wanted to keep him, but they also didn't want to give away an asset for free either. I think its smart to hang on to him for now as I think his play will improve playing for Tocchet. 

Their additions are the type of players they want and are at a more reasonable cost too. 

I don't think its a secret that they want to move on from some players but they aren't going to sit back and do nothing while they await to move on from these players. Its going to take time, but they are going to continue to build around the core regardless.

When building a team, its time sensitive, so I am OK with this.

[DefCon1]

5 hours ago, thrago said:

What's your definition of Young? and Gifted?  Cause the ones that are gifted aren't particularly young and the young ones aren't particularly gifted. I'll give my definitions Young 23 or younger. Gifted top 6 forward top 4 defense.

So Pettersson, Hughes, Kravatsov, Raty, Likkermackie, Podkolzin, Hoglander and Rathbone would fit your description. Some are younger and some need more time to develop. Obviously draft picks aren't a guarantee to any bonafide players that will be elite and we got lucky getting Hughes and Pettersson while we missed when we picked Juolevi and Virtanen with our top 5 picks. We got Podkolzin with top 10 pick and how long since the draft has he been developing? So the new management doesn't want to draft the whole damn team, since it will need tons of luck and 10 years to draft and by that time those young elite players like Pettersson and Hughes will be on another team, rinse and repeat. They need to draft but they also need to trade for young players when they can to speed up the process. No cup contending team won a cup without trading some of their picks to get players they need. Think of Chicago who got Hossa and Sharp via trades. LA Kings traded for Jeff Carter and Richards. Tampa traded for McDonaugh. Do you think those teams would win their cups without those trades to complete their team? I would say not a chance. Maybe Hronek will become as valuable as a McDonaugh for us in the future. So people complaining about us giving a mid 1st round pick need to check themselves, we got a valuable piece not a crappy piece which Benning used picks for like OEL trade.

[DefCon1]

5 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Unlike Benning I have confidence that this management group can get us to mediocre. Last guy couldn’t even do that. 
Hopefully next group will decide to try for championship calibre. 

We won't get to mediocre. This new management already got us a defender that Benning couldnt get the last 8 years. Also he got Kuzmenko for free through FA. Plus Beau, Raty, Kravatsov, Bloom, Bear, Joshua, Mikheyev...all within this year. They have made lots of smart additions and quickly fixed mistakes like Stillman. I believe at the pace of the additions and changes they are making that this team could make playoffs either next year or year after at the latest. They will probably trade Boeser and get rid of Myers and makes some trades to add 2 more top 4D. People don't seem to listen to press conferences. The goal of this new management was to turn this team around in 2 to 3 years and they are doing why they said they would do unlike Benning 

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, jyu said:

I think you are giving this Drance guy too much credit.

 

IMO, most fans here belong to two groups: 1) about 20-30% of the people want to go for it right away and these are typically people that are in love with Miller and 2) about 40-50% want a short two year retool since Petey, Hughes, Demko are great foundations and the team is too good to bottom out with them on the team and why two year retool? That happens to be when we can free ourselves of most of our cap problems. Then, there are minority that complain at everything no matter what, but only 10-20% belong in this group.  I think majority of the fans acknowledge the potential greatness of 40, 43, and 35 and are not wanting a full fledged rebuild nor do fans think it's possible with those three players on the team. 

 

IMO, most fans like myself realize that there are holes to be filled but we are cap crunched so while the cap problems resolve, we understand that we are not able to sufficiently address those holes to build towards contention. So at least for me, I'm fine with retooling and draft high so that we can get another core player or two over the next two drafts and stockpiling picks, young players, and cap space to acquire any missing pieces in around 2024 when we have identified new core players and are ready to go for it. Those retooling years could also be used to develop younger and cheaper players like Hogs, Podz, Kravs, Kilm, Aman, and Raty to replace the existing more expensive players like Boeser and Garland and fill vacant positions like 3C/4C so that we don't need to acquire those positions from outside by trading away draft capital/young prospects and in general, minimize the number of pieces that need to be acquired from outside.

 

 

 

Benning didn't do a great job but to compare to Seattle and Vegas who paid 650 mil and 500 mil to start with clean cap efficient roster, is a bit unfair IMO.

 

Yes. The current cap problems are mostly inherited from the previous management but the current management have not made it easy on themselves. Re-signing Miller and Boeser for example, Mikheyev and Kuz, now brought in Hronek. Putting aside whether this signings and acquisitions are good or bad (I think mostly good), they did try to do the difficult task of adding high salaried players while being cap crunched. 

 

They could have made it easy on themselves by saying, "we are going to undo the cap problem first and do minimal upgrade on the roster" but they chose the hard way.

 

I commend them for it and wish them good luck. It won't be easy.

 

YEs, very encouraging. They are quite decisive and I like that about this group.

 

There's two sides to this but no one can predict the future, just projections. Last season, they failed to improve the defence and admitted that was because clearing cap was much harder than they thought. 

 

This offseason, hopefully it's a different story and that you are right. We can clear Garland pretty easily I think but he is a good player and you don't want to give assets away cheaply -- that's just not how you build a contender with inefficient moves. Boeser with retention may be tradeable in the offseason or maybe not. Myers will need a sweetener but hopefully his contract is attractive to cap floor teams -- by the way, how many teams are considered cap floor teams next season? Arizona... and?

 

Yes, I think they are making good moves but they are in a tough situation and fans have the right to be concerned. I like their moves but their first offseason was a bit of a disappointment so they haven't fully earned the trust of the fans yet.

 

If they pull off the right moves and clear a lot of cap and upgrade the defence, fans will come around.

 

Very well said. I agree this would/should be the perfect time to retool/acquire picks and bottom out while the inefficient cap clears itself off the roster. As such management has set itself a near impossible task with all the high money signings they have made. With Miller, Boeser, Kuz, Mik, and Hronek that's nearly $30 in cap they have committed too. It will be the most likely culprit to our undoing. It's going to be nearly impossible to add pieces to this next to last place group of misfits. Namely 4 more defenceman. 

 

Yeah, totally unfair and head in the sand thinking to compare our situations to Vegas or Seattle.

 

This summer is going to tell us a lot. If they can't clear the likes of Boeser and Garland/Myers through hockey trades it's going to be a lot of pain or trading away all of our draft capital to ice what may only be a middling team at best.

 

I will also admit I like some of the moves they have made. Definitely way better than Benning at identifying and bringing in some fringe players who have upside. Will it be enough ... sure doesn't look like it will unfortunately.

[DefCon1]

Benning during his 7 years of being a GM only added:

Pettersson 

Hughes 

Demko

Miller

Podkolzin

Boeser

Garland

OEL - negative 

Myers - negative 

 

 

JR/Alvin in one year added:

Kuzmenko

Hronek

Beauvillier

Kravatsov

Raty

Bear

Joshua

Mikheyev

 

I mean look at what Benning got after all the top 5 drafts, trades, finishing bottom in the standings  the last 7 to 8 years which accumulated to very little when you look at the overall picture. Our prospect pool is bare and we also have no defense at NHL level except Hughes and the 2 anchor boat of contracts that play like AHLers. So am impressed by what the new management have done in little time. Am sure they will trade Boeser and Myers too in offseason.

[MattWN.]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

So the owner is selling? Because while he owns the club no management group will have the freedom to build in a way that many believe is how to create a championship calibre team. 

100%.

 

Our team has been too focused on building "playoff" team, while sacrificing the future. Sustainable champion winning teams are built through the draft. Not through overpaying free agents and trading high picks. The fact that a bottom 5 team 3 of the past 4 years hasn't picked in the first round.. and now including this year has traded 4/6 first round picks... It's pretty jolting when you look at where it's gotten us, and what we've missed out on on those drafts. 

[MattWN.]

11 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Very well said. I agree this would/should be the perfect time to retool/acquire picks and bottom out while the inefficient cap clears itself off the roster. As such management has set itself a near impossible task with all the high money signings they have made. With Miller, Boeser, Kuz, Mik, and Hronek that's nearly $30 in cap they have committed too. It will be the most likely culprit to our undoing. It's going to be nearly impossible to add pieces to this next to last place group of misfits. Namely 4 more defenceman. 

 

Yeah, totally unfair and head in the sand thinking to compare our situations to Vegas or Seattle.

 

This summer is going to tell us a lot. If they can't clear the likes of Boeser and Garland/Myers through hockey trades it's going to be a lot of pain or trading away all of our draft capital to ice what may only be a middling team at best.

 

I will also admit I like some of the moves they have made. Definitely way better than Benning at identifying and bringing in some fringe players who have upside. Will it be enough ... sure doesn't look like it will unfortunately.

100%.

 

I just want this club to stop mortgaging the future just to contend for a playoff spot. This team is so many pieces short of becoming a contender, it feels like such a step backward when we continue to sell the future just to ice a mediocre team. 

 

Somebody quote me and remind me this time next year, but I don't see this roster being in the top half of the standings. We're still a bottom half team. 

[Metal Face Doom]

10 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I’ve been on this forum since Petey was drafted and have seen the pro players Benning brought in.

Besides Miller I struggle to get excited.

 

Now, with PA at the helm since january last year, I got a lot of players to get excited about.

This is just over a year since PA took over. Think about that for a while…

The players I feel excited about and like to see how good they can be as a Canuck is:

Åman

Räty

Mikhejev

Hronek

Beauvillier

Bloom

Kravtsov

Kuzmenko

Bear

 

When did a Canucks GM bring in so many young gifted players that are ready to play(don’t get stuck on Bloom here )?

Then Abbotsford got much better regarding development wich means our prospects can cook for a while and actually get better.

Wonderful times ahead.

So we have a lot of players from 26 and younger.

 

 

Pretty clear direction if you ask me.

[EdgarM]

15 minutes ago, MattWN. said:

100%.

 

I just want this club to stop mortgaging the future just to contend for a playoff spot. This team is so many pieces short of becoming a contender, it feels like such a step backward when we continue to sell the future just to ice a mediocre team. 

 

Somebody quote me and remind me this time next year, but I don't see this roster being in the top half of the standings. We're still a bottom half team. 

I see the team BUILDING for the future as they are acquiring cost effective players who are in the right age range. I don't think you realize that this team has had issues which impeded them from performing to their potential in the past. 

Demko was injured, that was huge. A Team with no culture or character had this team playing like Jekyl and Hyde for a few seasons now. Things seemed to have stabilized and the team is playing more like a team, finally. Having NHL coaches who have won Stanley Cup's probably helps.

"So many pieces short of becoming a contender" can you be more specific? I say that the tougher pieces are already here. Yes we need another top 4 dman and our bottom 6 needs work as does our PKers. We need big, strong, fast checkers , probably a little easier to find then a Petey, Hughes or a Demko for sure.

[Gawdzukes]

45 minutes ago, MattWN. said:

The fact that a bottom 5 team 3 of the past 4 years hasn't picked in the first round.. and now including this year has traded 4/6 first round picks... It's pretty jolting when you look at where it's gotten us, and what we've missed out on on those drafts. 

Staggering

[MattWN.]

16 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I see the team BUILDING for the future as they are acquiring cost effective players who are in the right age range. I don't think you realize that this team has had issues which impeded them from performing to their potential in the past. 

Demko was injured, that was huge. A Team with no culture or character had this team playing like Jekyl and Hyde for a few seasons now. Things seemed to have stabilized and the team is playing more like a team, finally. Having NHL coaches who have won Stanley Cup's probably helps.

"So many pieces short of becoming a contender" can you be more specific? I say that the tougher pieces are already here. Yes we need another top 4 dman and our bottom 6 needs work as does our PKers. We need big, strong, fast checkers , probably a little easier to find then a Petey, Hughes or a Demko for sure.

Not when you consider our roster. We're the most committed cap team, with multiple contracts we're going to end up paying to move.

I would love to hear how you would acquire another top 4 D, and an entire checking line while we're capped out, and have a bottom 5 prospect pool in the league. With Demko 100% healthy we're maybe a wild card team, we're nowhere near a contender. That's my point.

I am so f**king tired selling our future just to MAYBE squeak into the playoffs. It's so short sighted. 

[Kevin Biestra]

11 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I’ve been on this forum since Petey was drafted and have seen the pro players Benning brought in.

Besides Miller I struggle to get excited.

 

When did a Canucks GM bring in so many young gifted players that are ready to play(don’t get stuck on Bloom here )?

 

Jack Milford and Pat Quinn have done quite a bit more than that in the past.

 

Quinn basically built the 1994 team from scratch.  Kirk McLean, Greg Adams, Linden, Bure, Ronning, Odjick, Momesso, Lumme, Diduck, Brown, etc.  And acquired the not super young but not old players like Courtnall and Babych and Murzyn as well.  Literally from scratch.  I actually don't know if there was a single player on the 1994 roster that was there when Quinn took over in 1987.

 

Milford more or less did the same with the 1982 team.  He built a slightly older team - Brodeur, Rota, Boldirev and so on weren't young.  But Smyl, Gradin and many others were.

 

[MattWN.]

1 minute ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Jack Milford and Pat Quinn have done quite a bit more than that in the past.

 

Quinn basically built the 1994 team from scratch.  Kirk McLean, Greg Adams, Linden, Bure, Ronning, Odjick, Momesso, Lumme, Diduck, Brown, etc.  And acquired the not super young but not old players like Courtnall and Babych and Murzyn as well.  Literally from scratch.  I actually don't know if there was a single player on the 1994 roster that was there when Quinn took over in 1987.

 

Milford more or less did the same with the 1982 team.  He built a slightly older team - Brodeur, Rota, Boldirev and so on weren't young.  But Smyl, Gradin and many others were.

 

Burke also was a fantastic builder, putting together that WCE era team. 

He's arguably the main reason this city still has a team. 

 

[Timråfan]

Just now, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Jack Milford and Pat Quinn have done quite a bit more than that in the past.

 

Quinn basically built the 1994 team from scratch.  Kirk McLean, Greg Adams, Linden, Bure, Ronning, Odjick, Momesso, Lumme, Diduck, Brown, etc.  And acquired the not super young but not old players like Courtnall and Babych and Murzyn as well.  Literally from scratch.  I actually don't know if there was a single player on the 1994 roster that was there when Quinn took over in 1987.

 

Milford more or less did the same with the 1982 team.  He built a slightly older team - Brodeur, Rota, Boldirev and so on weren't young.  But Smyl, Gradin and many others were.

 

I talked about the time PA has assembled the new players without including drafting.

 

Did Quinn do a similar upgrade in just over a year? 

[DrJockitch]

1 hour ago, DefCon1 said:

We won't get to mediocre. This new management already got us a defender that Benning couldnt get the last 8 years. Also he got Kuzmenko for free through FA. Plus Beau, Raty, Kravatsov, Bloom, Bear, Joshua, Mikheyev...all within this year. They have made lots of smart additions and quickly fixed mistakes like Stillman. I believe at the pace of the additions and changes they are making that this team could make playoffs either next year or year after at the latest. They will probably trade Boeser and get rid of Myers and makes some trades to add 2 more top 4D. People don't seem to listen to press conferences. The goal of this new management was to turn this team around in 2 to 3 years and they are doing why they said they would do unlike Benning 

That describes mediocre. Team that can scrape into the playoffs if everything goes well and is dependent on goalie getting hot at right time to get anywhere. 
‘Getting rid of Myers is a monumental task other than waiting for his contract to run out. Boesser has had a year of agent and GM working on moving out and we even conceded to retention and have not been able to move him. 
‘We have depleted our cap space and draft capital to make those trades to fill holes and currently are over the cap for next year and in need of a second and third line centre and another top 4 RD to really be a good team. We also have the OEL problem to deal with.   
This management group is carrying out a deeply flawed plan better than the last guy but it is still a deeply flawed plan full of shortcuts that at best gets us to middling. 

[Timråfan]

2 hours ago, jyu said:

Only Miller? What about Hughes, Hoglander, Podkolzin, Toffoli, and Garland? All of these players came since Petey got drafted and were pretty good players.

 

Hoglander and Podz each had very promising first seasons. Toffoli had like 10 points in his first 10 games and that playoffs. Hughes was magic from the start. 

 

Three were drafted and the two other added pro players didn’t even play at the same time.

 

The players PA added play together and aren’t drafted.

[jyu]

Just now, Timråfan said:

Three were drafted and the two other added pro players didn’t even play at the same time.

 

The players PA added play together and aren’t drafted.

Ah that’s what you meant by pro players.