Hits and Misses - Evaluating Rutherford and Allvin

[Smashian Kassian]

I pretty much agree with the OP's analysis.

 

Finding guys like Joshua & Aman out of nowhere is amazing work, the Ethan Bear trade was great getting a guy who can play for next to nothing (and some retention on top), then the Kravtsov trade was a fantastic no-cost move. Mikheyev is a valuable player that has been productive enough for his AAV - and we haven't seen his best yet. 

 

Hronek is TBD, whether Miller works out long term is TBD, Studnicka is TBD (I'd say trending the wrong way). The Dermott trade hasn't worked unfortunately, & through no ones fault really (he looked solid last year).

 

The coaching change might end up being the most important move, atleast it'll have to be for this to go as they think it can. 

 

 

[Drakrami]

Why's this fanbase so obssessed with free stuff and trade wins. I mean you can win 20 trades, and get all the free prospects you want, but if your team sucks what are you holding on to? 

 

According to many fans, we win so many trades over the years. Winning so many trades that we are still at the bottom of the league when it comes to the standings 5-10 years later. 

[wai_lai416]

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Lots has been said about the job that Rutherford and Allvin have done over the last 2 years.  Let's go over all of the hits and misses to see what has actually transpired so we can be objective on what they have accomplished so far...

 

Hits:

 

Andrei Kuzmenko - legit 30-40 goal scorer.  Cost - FREE

Dakota Joshua - solid 4th liner who can move up the lineup.  Cost - FREE

Nils Aman - solid 4C who could move up to 3C.  Cost - FREE

Filip Hronek / Anthony Beauvillier / Aatu Raty / 4th round pick - I lumped this all together as this was the total package received in the Horvat trade.  I think this was a home run trade, others disagree.  We will find out in 2-3 years the real verdict.  Cost - Bo Horvat and a 2nd round pick

3rd round pick - acquired from the Travis Hamonic trade.  Used to draft Elias Pettersson (Dman)

Christian Wolanin - has looked really good with the big club.  Has really helped Abby this year and should also help Abby in their playoff run.  Cost - Michael Amadio

Ethan Bear - hasn't shown a whole lot, but has filled in adequately when needed and the cost to acquire was low.  Not sure if he will be re-signed.  Cost - 5th round pick

Ilya Mikheyev - looked great next to Petey and Kuzy.  Injury derailed his season, but I think he showed us what he can do even playing on one leg.  Cost - FREE

 

Misses:

 

Riley Stillman - didn't do much other than be our tank commander, which you could spin as a positive.  Good news is we flipped him for Josh Bloom.  Cost - 2nd round pick and dumping Dickinson contract

Travis Dermott - could be a solid 3rd pairing guy but injuries have derailed his Canucks career.  May not be re-signed in the summer.  Cost - 3rd round pick

Collin Delia - hasn't really done much and should be replaced in the offseason.  Cost - FREE

 

 

To Be Determined

 

Vitali Kravtsov - TDB.  Could be a gem of a find for the top 6.  Cost - William Lockwood & a 7th round pick

Jack Studnicka - TBD.  Cost - Michael DiPietro and Jonathan Myrenberg

Josh Bloom - TBD.  Cost - Riley Stillman

Arshdeep Bains - TBD.  Cost - FREE

Filip Johansson - TBD.  Cost - FREE

Kirill Kudryavtsev - TBD.  Cost - drafted 208th overall

Jonathan Lekkerimaki - TBD.  Cost - drafted 15th overall

 

Overall, I would give the management group a B+.  Alot more hits than misses.  Lots of guys are still in the "to be determined" group, so the grade could change.  If you are in the camp that we lost the Horvat trade, then your grade will be lower I am sure...

 

i dont disagree with your take on almost everything on that list.. but personally i'll only give it a C+.. the way they handled the whole boudreau thing since end of last season really left a sour taste in my mouth and alot of casual fans.. the way they were gas lighting boudreau every step of the way and then hanging him by the corpse was nothing but disrespect not just from the fans and media point of view.. i'm sure around the league too..

 

i don't hate what we got back for horvat in terms of value i think it's really good.. but for me if they moved horvat they should have moved Miller also. it's fine and all they want to "retool" instead of "rebuild" we have enough core players to rebuild around, the package for horvat + whatever we would have gotten for Miller we could easily either draft and revamp our prospect pool the next couple years.. or move miller for more "young core" pieces to build around.. coz frankly i still don't see this team competing as is the next 2 years.. miller will be 32 turning 33 if we are to be competing in 3 years.. he might be regulated to a 2w/3w or 3c by then as he's already a 2w/2c now so 3 years later very possible.. if we would have done that.. we'd be swimming in cap space instead of where we are now.. we'll be over the cap if we have a full roster and those LTIR players doesn't stay LTIR. we are currently a non playoff team in the bottom 3rd of the league but capped.. people keep thinking moving caps will be easy and cheap.. i think the opposite.. a lot of teams didn't get much for eating caps from other teams.. but they are only eating caps for 1/4th of a season in most of the cases.. they ain't like us where we have to move cap just to get under the salary cap.. teams would be more incline to ask for a heavy add just to move caps.. myers at 1mil hit 6mil cap is enticing for bottom feeders to reach the cap floor.. but really it's just chicago and anaheim.. if i was a betting man i'm going to say both those teams are on his 10 team NTC.. teams that are not on his NTC.. chances are they wont be willing to take myers at 6mil.. maybe 4mil they would consider.. but all that depends on what they have for the right side.. as right now all we have is honrek.. we dont really have much option on RD atm and we can't do anything on july 1st given our cap situation..

 

there's also a lot of mystery with regards to handling of the pearson injury... no one knows what exactly happened other than them but 5+ surgery for something that wasn't that serious to he might now play next season or ever again.

 

i would have given them a higher grade if they moved horvat and miller out.. and did a retool kinda like the rangers.. sell off most of their asset.. get a bunch of draft picks and most importantly cap space and then build around their core players with the cap space and draft pick.. rangers draft picks didn't quite work out the way they expected.. but if they were competent.. they would have been even scarier than colorado.. kakko and lafreniere is looking much better offensively despite still playing a 3rd line role.. imagine they reach their potential.

[spook007]

2 hours ago, Dazzle said:

We threw a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks as a team that really hasn't achieved crap under their watch.

 

No matter how many hits they've had, which is not insignificant, there is no way in hell that this management gets a B+.

Achieved crap on their watch...?

 

What did you expect?

[Canuck Surfer]

Nice thread.

 

I personally did not like when we traded Schneider.  Wanted to give Lou the freedom he clearly wanted; not that I disliked the return (Horvat). So I gave it a pass, rather than an endorsement (I call a ''leave alone.''). I also was not thrilled when we re-signed Miller.  But gave that a leave alone because we traded Horvat & I liked the return also. Maybe they know better than me who is a better keep, Bo or JT? For the record I criticized the Miller incoming trade, still do. It did not get a leave alone, it was a move that should not have been made IMO.

 

We did not have a core when we traded for Miller. EP and Hughes were not established, in their prime.  I did not want to spend a first and a 3rd.  Then we traded for OEL with a 1st and 2knd; and I hated that trade even more.  Like only trading away Cam Neely. We traded away $28 mill in bad cap, and took on $40 Mill plus in bad cap, called it a win?  And STILL we did not have our core established. So we were not going to win, which bore out, and took on bad cap.

 

I LOVED the Hronek acquisition.  I do believe we have a core now>> EP, Demko & Hughes, now Hronek. It has its risks our new RHD is not one. His contract expires RFA, we will have him for years. I see us mitigating those risks.  We did not have a surplus of youth ELC's and prospects coming. That was & is the risk. However, we have started collecting assets. That we have Kuzmenko, Mikheyev + acquired Beauvillier, put Hogz & Podz back on the farm?  Meant we were both developing rather than relying on our two best prospects. And now have surplus wingers.  So I can see a trade for a winger clearing cap everyone is panicked about. Hronek is EXACTLY one of the two D our system was desperately short of. A good (not great) two way D, who is in the tier behind Hughes among great young puck moving D's in the league. I have followed him for years. He has the best shot from the point on our blue line. The best since Edler or Sami Salo. Moves and handles the puck as good as Erhoff. 

 

What we need now according to the Scotty Bowman roster building outline?

 

More speed and size in depth roles.  Hogz & Podz can cover both up front! Plus 6 or 7 other min contract guys fighting for roster spots incl on D.

A defensive Centre.  

A power forward, Podkolzin is a prime candidate already in our system.

A stalwart defensive D.

 

To my thinking we are two critical pieces away from being a great team. Also need a backup G, Silovs is a candidate. But defensive D; see Tanev making less than $5 Mill. Colorado only paying two 2knds for Devon Toews. Tampa did not gut their team for Cernak. I believe the opportunity will surface to resolve our D over the next 15 months. Our window starts October 2024.

 

We have excess wingers and a Lotto pick this year. I think we will be drafting a C, this year is full of them. Not RHD, which is also why I am ok getting PH. Even keeping OEL, cap problems themselves are actually very good after next season. We could also trade Beauvillier who's stock increased with EP, for another first at the draft! Can be ok interim with a Boeser or Myers trade. Look good with both.

 

I am with @JamesB.  I am buying!

 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Nice thread.

 

I personally did not like when we traded Schneider.  Wanted to give Lou the freedom he clearly wanted; not that I disliked the return (Horvat). So I gave it a pass, rather than an endorsement (I call a ''leave alone.''). I also was not thrilled when we re-signed Miller.  But gave that a leave alone because we traded Horvat & I liked the return also. Maybe they know better than me who is a better keep, Bo or JT? For the record I criticized the Miller incoming trade, still do. It did not get a leave alone, it was a move that should not have been made IMO.

 

We did not have a core when we traded for Miller. EP and Hughes were not established, in their prime.  I did not want to spend a first and a 3rd.  Then we traded for OEL with a 1st and 2knd; and I hated that trade even more.  Like only trading away Cam Neely. We traded away $28 mill in bad cap, and took on $40 Mill plus in bad cap, called it a win?  And STILL we did not have our core established. So we were not going to win, which bore out, and took on bad cap.

 

I LOVED the Hronek acquisition.  I do believe we have a core now>> EP, Demko & Hughes, now Hronek. It has its risks our new RHD is not one. His contract expires RFA, we will have him for years. I see us mitigating those risks.  We did not have a surplus of youth ELC's and prospects coming. That was & is the risk. However, we have started collecting assets. That we have Kuzmenko, Mikheyev + acquired Beauvillier, put Hogz & Podz back on the farm?  Meant we were both developing rather than relying on our two best prospects. And now have surplus wingers.  So I can see a trade for a winger clearing cap everyone is panicked about. Hronek is EXACTLY one of the two D our system was desperately short of. A good (not great) two way D, who is in the tier behind Hughes among great young puck moving D's in the league. I have followed him for years. He has the best shot from the point on our blue line. The best since Edler or Sami Salo. Moves and handles the puck as good as Erhoff. 

 

What we need now according to the Scotty Bowman roster building outline?

 

More speed and size in depth roles.  Hogz & Podz can cover both up front! Plus 6 or 7 other min contract guys fighting for roster spots incl on D.

A defensive Centre.  

A power forward, Podkolzin is a prime candidate already in our system.

A stalwart defensive D.

 

To my thinking we are two critical pieces away from being a great team. Also need a backup G, Silovs is a candidate. But defensive D; see Tanev making less than $5 Mill. Colorado only paying two 2knds for Devon Toews. Tampa did not gut their team for Cernak. I believe the opportunity will surface to resolve our D over the next 15 months. Our window starts October 2024.

 

We have excess wingers and a Lotto pick this year. I think we will be drafting a C, this year is full of them. Not RHD, which is also why I am ok getting PH. Even keeping OEL, cap problems themselves are actually very good after next season. We could also trade Beauvillier who's stock increased with EP, for another first at the draft! Can be ok interim with a Boeser or Myers trade. Look good with both.

 

I am with @JamesB.  I am buying!

 

Good read.   Miller without context, was a great trade.   Amazing really, he's core, has been since he came.   Sure he's the old guy on the team, most cup winners have a couple, sometimes even loaded with 30 plus year old core guys.   We didn't consider Bieksa, Kesler, Luongo, Sedins not core when they did their best work 29-33 did we.     Miller should remain a core player for us until he's a third liner.    Just like Landeskog although his injury might be tough to recover from - it's ok to have guys five years older than your best players entering their primes.    The cost was excellent,  Miller has more than earned his pay, underpaid really,  and his next deal was on the low side given comps and how close things are now for cap going up.    11 years ... If JT plays it all out, that would be something.    Have zero issue with him, or having him on the team.   If it wasn't him it would be someone else, and LE yuck.   Rather go with the devil we know, and glad he plays with some mean/emotion.   As for the timing for sure that's up to debate.    Felt JB was one year off on a lot of his deals, and his timing. 

 

This is one of the youngest teams in the league now.   Management has done a fabulous job of that - went from 9th 3rd.    A big bite of the elephant.  

 

Where their remaining elephant lies, is whom do they trade to fix their cap issues, while thinking 3-4 years down the road.     Have an excess of mid pay/range wingers.    One of them needs to go.   Garland, AB or Brock.    Think Mikheyev is safe, same with Kuzmenko (for now).    Who are they going to keep for those years and whom are they going to eventually trade.    Team needs playoff reps.   Ideally next year.    

Edited March 14, 2023 by IBatch

[DownUndaCanuck]

I think it's still very early to judge them, but so far at the end of the day, we're still in a terrible position in the standings. I know a 12 month turn-around was too much to be expected, and they've done a lot of good so far, but their direction is just a bit all over the place.

 

For example, let a younger Bo Horvat go, re-sign an older JT Miller, throw away top picks to acquire a younger RD in Hronek and target young projects like Stillman, Kravstov, Studnicka and Bear, but then lock up a (albeit slightly) older Kuzmenko.

 

I see the vision of retooling and I think this term differs depending on who you ask, but trading high first and second round picks in the deepest draft in years is a bold move to say we want to win now/soon. Because of this, they should be judged, and judged harshly, if we don't win now/soon. Trading a mid-round first in a deep draft is basically a top-10 pick in any other draft. That 2nd we gave to Detroit would be a first in any other draft. Therefore, we just threw away two first round picks for a top young RD. Not a bad trade, don't get me wrong, but it's a bold one to say we don't want to win in 4-5 years time, we want to make the playoffs next season. Alright then. That's how Allvin should be judged.

 

The goal should have been to make the playoffs this year but Allvin has taken his time to get warmed into his position, but the moves he's made has put a stamp on the team now. We've got the coach he wants, no more excuses there. We've got a lot of young projects to work on. We've re-moulded the top-6 forward group. We've finally changed the defence a bit (only took them over a year and it's still pretty average). Allvin and JR should be judged for this season's poor performance, but they've made their big moves now - trading Bo, swapping BB for Tocchet and spending picks to acquire Hronek. Now we see what happens. The rest of the year is obviously a write-off (although they should still be judged for this), but really it comes down to how we fare next season. Now we're icing a team built by Allvin and JR, not JB, their careers should be determined on how we fare next year - not in 4-5 years time. They want to win now, they've spent a lot of value to win next year, they should be judged harshly if they don't do it. If we're in a playoff position next year then great, all kudos to Allvin for his ballsy moves, but if we're still on the outside looking in (and we've traded away futures for it), then Allvin should be judged accordingly.

 

Personally, I don't see this team playoff-ready yet. When you watch teams like Carolina, Vegas and even NYI, we've got such weak depth compared to them. Our bottom-6 forward group are basically AHLers, even when healthy they're suspect projects acquired from other teams. Our defencemen are still very weak apart from Hughes and Hronek. Our goalie is going to be the one who covers a lot of these errors but that's just a lazy excuse for leaving the defence untouched. If we want to ice a playoff team, management need to make a couple of big moves in the off-season yet. We're still way too heavy on wing, with even more acquisitions instead of subtractions so far, we still don't have a 3rd line center and just traded away our 4C, and our bottom-4 defencemen are still very average.

 

I'm all about giving management a go, but how long do you waste? I think this coming off-season is the key for Allvin and JR, because if we're not in a playoff spot next season they have failed us.

[spook007]

2 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I think it's still very early to judge them, but so far at the end of the day, we're still in a terrible position in the standings. I know a 12 month turn-around was too much to be expected, and they've done a lot of good so far, but their direction is just a bit all over the place.

 

For example, let a younger Bo Horvat go, re-sign an older JT Miller, throw away top picks to acquire a younger RD in Hronek and target young projects like Stillman, Kravstov, Studnicka and Bear, but then lock up a (albeit slightly) older Kuzmenko.

 

I see the vision of retooling and I think this term differs depending on who you ask, but trading high first and second round picks in the deepest draft in years is a bold move to say we want to win now/soon. Because of this, they should be judged, and judged harshly, if we don't win now/soon. Trading a mid-round first in a deep draft is basically a top-10 pick in any other draft. That 2nd we gave to Detroit would be a first in any other draft. Therefore, we just threw away two first round picks for a top young RD. Not a bad trade, don't get me wrong, but it's a bold one to say we don't want to win in 4-5 years time, we want to make the playoffs next season. Alright then. That's how Allvin should be judged.

 

The goal should have been to make the playoffs this year but Allvin has taken his time to get warmed into his position, but the moves he's made has put a stamp on the team now. We've got the coach he wants, no more excuses there. We've got a lot of young projects to work on. We've re-moulded the top-6 forward group. We've finally changed the defence a bit (only took them over a year and it's still pretty average). Allvin and JR should be judged for this season's poor performance, but they've made their big moves now - trading Bo, swapping BB for Tocchet and spending picks to acquire Hronek. Now we see what happens. The rest of the year is obviously a write-off (although they should still be judged for this), but really it comes down to how we fare next season. Now we're icing a team built by Allvin and JR, not JB, their careers should be determined on how we fare next year - not in 4-5 years time. They want to win now, they've spent a lot of value to win next year, they should be judged harshly if they don't do it. If we're in a playoff position next year then great, all kudos to Allvin for his ballsy moves, but if we're still on the outside looking in (and we've traded away futures for it), then Allvin should be judged accordingly.

 

Personally, I don't see this team playoff-ready yet. When you watch teams like Carolina, Vegas and even NYI, we've got such weak depth compared to them. Our bottom-6 forward group are basically AHLers, even when healthy they're suspect projects acquired from other teams. Our defencemen are still very weak apart from Hughes and Hronek. Our goalie is going to be the one who covers a lot of these errors but that's just a lazy excuse for leaving the defence untouched. If we want to ice a playoff team, management need to make a couple of big moves in the off-season yet. We're still way too heavy on wing, with even more acquisitions instead of subtractions so far, we still don't have a 3rd line center and just traded away our 4C, and our bottom-4 defencemen are still very average.

 

I'm all about giving management a go, but how long do you waste? I think this coming off-season is the key for Allvin and JR, because if we're not in a playoff spot next season they have failed us.

Kuzmenko was great bit of business no matter how you slice it... a free 30+ goalscorer. and now signed for 2 years for only $5M/year 

 

They want the team to compete, now... Not in 3-5 years, maybe.

Win, doubt next year, but once Myers is shifted in a year, then the real push should start. 

Nobody can guarantee success, as this season showed. Demko went down, and the season drowned with him. But if the core pieces can stay healthy, or at least relatively healthy, and Hronek plays like a good rhd, there is no reason, why this team won't be in the play offs next season.

 

We've been un happy about the lack of RHD in our defence for donkeys years now, and unless he turns out to be another Gudbransson, Hronek is exactly what this team requires... and to call a mid first and second around the 40 mark two top picks, is maybe just slightly misleading. 

How on earth were we going to acquire a player like Hronek otherwise?

 

Finally, its all very good to say JR & PA should be judge for this season, but ever since Bruce got canned and the team started to play with structure, the arrow has pointed North, so maybe, just maybe we should hold on to our judgements until next season unfolds. 

If we are in the same position next season, then we can start wielding the knives, but Allvin has not even been here for 14 months yet... I don't know, how quick you expected this to be turned around, but big changes has happened already, and only contracts have prevented even bigger changes, so think a bit of patience is required.

 

Do agree though, that major injuries aside, unless the team makes the play offs its a fail...

 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I think it's still very early to judge them, but so far at the end of the day, we're still in a terrible position in the standings. I know a 12 month turn-around was too much to be expected, and they've done a lot of good so far, but their direction is just a bit all over the place.

 

For example, let a younger Bo Horvat go, re-sign an older JT Miller, throw away top picks to acquire a younger RD in Hronek and target young projects like Stillman, Kravstov, Studnicka and Bear, but then lock up a (albeit slightly) older Kuzmenko.

 

I see the vision of retooling and I think this term differs depending on who you ask, but trading high first and second round picks in the deepest draft in years is a bold move to say we want to win now/soon. Because of this, they should be judged, and judged harshly, if we don't win now/soon. Trading a mid-round first in a deep draft is basically a top-10 pick in any other draft. That 2nd we gave to Detroit would be a first in any other draft. Therefore, we just threw away two first round picks for a top young RD. Not a bad trade, don't get me wrong, but it's a bold one to say we don't want to win in 4-5 years time, we want to make the playoffs next season. Alright then. That's how Allvin should be judged.

 

The goal should have been to make the playoffs this year but Allvin has taken his time to get warmed into his position, but the moves he's made has put a stamp on the team now. We've got the coach he wants, no more excuses there. We've got a lot of young projects to work on. We've re-moulded the top-6 forward group. We've finally changed the defence a bit (only took them over a year and it's still pretty average). Allvin and JR should be judged for this season's poor performance, but they've made their big moves now - trading Bo, swapping BB for Tocchet and spending picks to acquire Hronek. Now we see what happens. The rest of the year is obviously a write-off (although they should still be judged for this), but really it comes down to how we fare next season. Now we're icing a team built by Allvin and JR, not JB, their careers should be determined on how we fare next year - not in 4-5 years time. They want to win now, they've spent a lot of value to win next year, they should be judged harshly if they don't do it. If we're in a playoff position next year then great, all kudos to Allvin for his ballsy moves, but if we're still on the outside looking in (and we've traded away futures for it), then Allvin should be judged accordingly.

 

Personally, I don't see this team playoff-ready yet. When you watch teams like Carolina, Vegas and even NYI, we've got such weak depth compared to them. Our bottom-6 forward group are basically AHLers, even when healthy they're suspect projects acquired from other teams. Our defencemen are still very weak apart from Hughes and Hronek. Our goalie is going to be the one who covers a lot of these errors but that's just a lazy excuse for leaving the defence untouched. If we want to ice a playoff team, management need to make a couple of big moves in the off-season yet. We're still way too heavy on wing, with even more acquisitions instead of subtractions so far, we still don't have a 3rd line center and just traded away our 4C, and our bottom-4 defencemen are still very average.

 

I'm all about giving management a go, but how long do you waste? I think this coming off-season is the key for Allvin and JR, because if we're not in a playoff spot next season they have failed us.

Spook did a great job of providing a little more context.   

 

Get your frustration.   Thing is the key metric was always going to be around EP and QHs.   Absolutely get the ideas around rebuilding behind them as the key focus.    Problem with that is - in this universe anyways, not something that's going to happen yet anyways.    QHs interview shifting my perspective on this, otherwise i'd be saying almost the same things you did.    They don't want to stick around for a rebuild.   And he's excited to have another player who can take a huge part of the slack off (and for Quin especially ... Tochett is playing him like Al Mac, Pronger, Lidstrom,  EK, Doughty, Chara and Weber - as in 28 plus minutes a game.   And he didn't even show excitement - but his words were clear - a rebuild is not at all in his wheelhouse in Vancouver right now. 

 

Owners get brought up too.   Can't speak for them, but as for QHs and even EP (at the all-star game he said we needed better defenseman, in a carefully worded way) they've said it.   If they are saying it they mean it too.  

 

Would you want a full rebuild with QHs and EP traded at the deadline and this years draft?    That's what we'd be looking at.    The idea of a rebuild behind EP and QHs evaporated.     It could come back like a sneaky overhand right and knock the team into smitherings in a couple seasons if it doesn't work.  

 

Believe management did a good job overall given the circumstances.   Get wounds were made (which are already quickly healing) by trading Horvat and not Miller etc.    And we have forward depth not many teams do even after trading Horvat.  NYI has an old core.   Depth?  Not sure about that.   Vegas too now, Eichel kind of evaporated that for them...They are in their competing stage for sure. 

 

We are a very young team.   Been built for 3-4 years down the road even as a re-fool.   A rebuild would have been fine too.   I'm not sure which direction was best.   At least this way they've mitigated and kept that option on the table for later.    QHs and Demko.   EP, i bet he signs this summer - or at least best the organization will try hard to sign him. 

 

 

 

 

 

[GB5]

12 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Filip Hronek / Anthony Beauvillier / Aatu Raty / 4th round pick - I lumped this all together as this was the total package received in the Horvat trade.  I think this was a home run trade, others disagree.  We will find out in 2-3 years the real verdict.  Cost - Bo Horvat and a 2nd round pick

3rd round pick - acquired from the Travis Hamonic trade.  Used to draft Elias Pettersson (Dman)

I like your analysis and am not trying to pick it apart but I would wait on Hronek to play a  few games before calling this trade a hit.

 

I do agree that it has the potential to be a hit but can't say for sure yet.

 

One other note on Nils Aman, I is only moving up to 3C out of necessity but is not really a legitimate middle pairing center. They let Lammikko go who actually had better defensive and offensive numbers than Aman last year.

Edited March 14, 2023 by GB5

[ilduce39]

Hard to give them a grade yet without seeing this offseason.  So far they bought a too heavily into the Bruce bump, neglected the defence and have now traded away their strength at the C position. 
 

With that said, Pro scouting looks a lot more promising aside from the fact their first plan for backup goaltending was a big flop.
 

Not sure about the amateur scouting yet.

 

Contracts are fine.  Miller and Boeser probably should have been traded / not signed but their actual deals aren’t bad for what the players had accomplished. 

Trades have been a little rushed - some nice value deals for prospects / but the timing of their two signature deals in Bo and Hronek were odd IMO.  
 

Will really need to see how Hronek fits in and what happens with Raty / where that NY 1st ends up. 
 

I like Tocchet and Colliton.  I’m probably most impressed with the underlying organizational commitment to structure and “playing the right way” or whatever.  It’s a pretty nebulous thing to say, but it seems like a tangible shift from previous management.  Maybe a bonus of having a president + GM and a bit more robust and defined supporting cast behind the scenes.
 

Overall, I think they *could* salvage a strong grade but they’re walking a tightrope right now.
 

I’d have to give them a C for doing some nice things / having some promise but missing on the main points out of the gate. Could easily be a strong B with a good offseason.

Edited March 14, 2023 by ilduce39

[Dazzle]

6 hours ago, spook007 said:

Achieved crap on their watch...?

 

What did you expect?

They said they were a few pieces away from the playoffs - wrong. Very wrong.

 

They traded a 1st, and at least a couple of 2nds all the while being at the bottom of the league. Look around and you'll see no other bottom feeding team did the same thing. Everyone else COLLECTED picks.

[IBatch]

28 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

They said they were a few pieces away from the playoffs - wrong. Very wrong.

 

They traded a 1st, and at least a couple of 2nds all the while being at the bottom of the league. Look around and you'll see no other bottom feeding team did the same thing. Everyone else COLLECTED picks.

We are not ARI, ANA or CHI though are we.   ARI ... Keller is still there.   Player of the week last week too.   OTT added.  St. Louis is breaking the band up while they can.   Smart.    We collected younger players.   It's not so simple as just acquiring picks, that is unless you want to see Demko, QHs and EP traded before they even get an honest chance? 

[Eddie]

I think the key point here is the last month or so they have gone pretty much all in on next season.  Hiring Tochet now and trading for compete now pieces with futures. 

By Xmas next year we will see if this strategy finally looks to pan out for once or it's the same old Canucks story with half the core underperforming and us being out of the playoff race by Xmas in which case they will be gone I think. 

 

Lekkermaki is likely a bust at this point - tough to come back from missing basically a whole season as a 18/19 year old and the next big thing will be who we draft 8-14th this year and how they develop out the gates  :/  A team that can't draft is very unlikely to be competitive. And I don't see much improvement being made there. Its been the organization's Achilles heal for nearly 20 years now. 

 

The jury is still very much out for me given the above - they have made some decent minor-ish moves for supporting players and reclamation projects, but the Horvat trade is unclear where we end up till next year and how those pieces can develop and perform. 

 

 

 

 

[HKSR]

13 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Lots has been said about the job that Rutherford and Allvin have done over the last 2 years.  Let's go over all of the hits and misses to see what has actually transpired so we can be objective on what they have accomplished so far...

 

Hits:

 

Andrei Kuzmenko - legit 30-40 goal scorer.  Cost - FREE

Dakota Joshua - solid 4th liner who can move up the lineup.  Cost - FREE

Nils Aman - solid 4C who could move up to 3C.  Cost - FREE

Filip Hronek / Anthony Beauvillier / Aatu Raty / 4th round pick - I lumped this all together as this was the total package received in the Horvat trade.  I think this was a home run trade, others disagree.  We will find out in 2-3 years the real verdict.  Cost - Bo Horvat and a 2nd round pick

3rd round pick - acquired from the Travis Hamonic trade.  Used to draft Elias Pettersson (Dman)

Christian Wolanin - has looked really good with the big club.  Has really helped Abby this year and should also help Abby in their playoff run.  Cost - Michael Amadio

Ethan Bear - hasn't shown a whole lot, but has filled in adequately when needed and the cost to acquire was low.  Not sure if he will be re-signed.  Cost - 5th round pick

Ilya Mikheyev - looked great next to Petey and Kuzy.  Injury derailed his season, but I think he showed us what he can do even playing on one leg.  Cost - FREE

 

Misses:

 

Riley Stillman - didn't do much other than be our tank commander, which you could spin as a positive.  Good news is we flipped him for Josh Bloom.  Cost - 2nd round pick and dumping Dickinson contract

Travis Dermott - could be a solid 3rd pairing guy but injuries have derailed his Canucks career.  May not be re-signed in the summer.  Cost - 3rd round pick

Collin Delia - hasn't really done much and should be replaced in the offseason.  Cost - FREE

 

 

To Be Determined

 

Vitali Kravtsov - TDB.  Could be a gem of a find for the top 6.  Cost - William Lockwood & a 7th round pick

Jack Studnicka - TBD.  Cost - Michael DiPietro and Jonathan Myrenberg

Josh Bloom - TBD.  Cost - Riley Stillman

Arshdeep Bains - TBD.  Cost - FREE

Filip Johansson - TBD.  Cost - FREE

Kirill Kudryavtsev - TBD.  Cost - drafted 208th overall

Jonathan Lekkerimaki - TBD.  Cost - drafted 15th overall

 

Overall, I would give the management group a B+.  Alot more hits than misses.  Lots of guys are still in the "to be determined" group, so the grade could change.  If you are in the camp that we lost the Horvat trade, then your grade will be lower I am sure...

 

What I feel I need to give them credit for is identifying pro talent.  That's why I feel quite confident about Hronek.  Even Dermott classified as a 'miss' seemed to be an effective defender until he got injured.

 

What I feel about Benning was he and his team were not very good at identifying pro talent.  Established or close to established NHL guys they brought in were quite often 'misses'.  He was better at drafting than acquiring NHL proven players.

[Alflives]

16 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I think the key point here is the last month or so they have gone pretty much all in on next season.  Hiring Tochet now and trading for compete now pieces with futures. 

By Xmas next year we will see if this strategy finally looks to pan out for once or it's the same old Canucks story with half the core underperforming and us being out of the playoff race by Xmas in which case they will be gone I think. 

 

Lekkermaki is likely a bust at this point - tough to come back from missing basically a whole season as a 18/19 year old and the next big thing will be who we draft 8-14th this year and how they develop out the gates  :/  A team that can't draft is very unlikely to be competitive. And I don't see much improvement being made there. Its been the organization's Achilles heal for nearly 20 years now. 

 

The jury is still very much out for me given the above - they have made some decent minor-ish moves for supporting players and reclamation projects, but the Horvat trade is unclear where we end up till next year and how those pieces can develop and perform. 

 

 

 

 

Hronek is a win now and a win in the future piece. Mikeyev is a win now and a win in the future piece. Management is building their core group, while also building their supporting cast. Kuzmenko is win now and win in the future. 
which player did we add who is only a win now guy? 

[spook007]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

They said they were a few pieces away from the playoffs - wrong. Very wrong.

 

They traded a 1st, and at least a couple of 2nds all the while being at the bottom of the league. Look around and you'll see no other bottom feeding team did the same thing. Everyone else COLLECTED picks.

Only real reason we're bottom of the league is Demko injured, Garbage defensive structure, No RHD....

Well PA has had less than 14 months to change it around, and he has shifted a lot around... 

I'd say next season will be the measuring stick (-Myers), of where this team really is, provided we don't enter injury hell...

 

[GB5]

54 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Lekkermaki is likely a bust at this point

Wow, pretty tough on the kid aren't you?

 

His draft +1 season hasn't blown anyone's socks off but no one is expecting him to make the Canucks right away either. I wouldn't use the "b" word on any draft pick until at least 4-5 years after they are drafted.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

We are not ARI, ANA or CHI though are we.   ARI ... Keller is still there.   Player of the week last week too.   OTT added.  St. Louis is breaking the band up while they can.   Smart.    We collected younger players.   It's not so simple as just acquiring picks, that is unless you want to see Demko, QHs and EP traded before they even get an honest chance? 

Ottawa isn't a bottom feeder.  They're clearly a team on an upward trajectory despite a very uneasy ownership situation.  They're still fighting to make the playoffs.

 

We are Philly.  A team with a low overall age because of its bottom six, tied down by a bunch of anchor contracts.  Strange deadline moves that got pundits scratching their heads.

[ilduce39]

9 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Ottawa isn't a bottom feeder.  They're clearly a team on an upward trajectory despite a very uneasy ownership situation.  They're still fighting to make the playoffs.

 

We are Philly.  A team with a low overall age because of its bottom six, tied down by a bunch of anchor contracts.  Strange deadline moves that got pundits scratching their heads.

Top 7 by points:
 

Petey - 24

Kuz - 27

Beau - 25

Miller - 30

Mikheyev - 28

Brock - 26

Garland - 27

 

Demko - 27

 

What’s our average age?  26? Not exactly far off.
 

We aren’t a baby top 6 but there’s plenty of tread on all the tires and our most important piece is also our youngest.   
 

That’s also not counting guys like Pods and Hogs who could very well be slotted in if some of those guys are traded.