Is the Current Canuck Defence Playoff Team Quality? (My Analysis)

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Bear isn't even worth $1 mil. I'll be outraged if they waste $2.5m on him for 2 or 3 years, What an utter waste of cap space that would be.

He will get better as he goes from 24 to 27 years old, and I don't think that 2.5 will be overpriced for a RD that's going to log 16 mins/night. 

 

For the record, I don't want him back on our team unless our other options don't work out, but he will definitely have some value around the league if we get some term for a cheap enough number. 

[shazzam]

Our D just seems fragile. Even if we make they playoffs, we getting thrown around like a bag of potatoes. We really need the forwards to commit to defending

[Gawdzukes]

31 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

He will get better as he goes from 24 to 27 years old, and I don't think that 2.5 will be overpriced for a RD that's going to log 16 mins/night. 

 

For the record, I don't want him back on our team unless our other options don't work out, but he will definitely have some value around the league if we get some term for a cheap enough number. 

Hmmm, I am very doubtful. Why would you assume he'll get any better? That's a bad bet to make. I would feel he would be like Boeser the second we sign him. Too much money, stuck with a contract for a player no one wants. Anything more than a year is absolutely criminal for that plug imo. I would almost entirely give up on management if they did that with the cap constraints we're under. We are struggling to ice a team under the cap and throwing away $2.5m for 3 years on Bear would be absolutely insane. Just the thought of it has me shaking my head rapidly as I write this.   

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Hmmm, I am very doubtful. Why would you assume he'll get any better? That's a bad bet to make. I would feel he would be like Boeser the second we sign him. Too much money, stuck with a contract for a player no one wants. Anything more than a year is absolutely criminal for that plug imo. I would almost entirely give up on management if they did that with the cap constraints we're under. We are struggling to ice a team under the cap and throwing away $2.5m for 3 years on Bear would be absolutely insane. Just the thought of it has me shaking my head rapidly as I write this.   

What are you thinking for our defense for next year?  

 

Filip Johansson gets a spot? Juulsen? I don't think that McWard is ready, he needs at least one year in the AHL. 

[iinatcc]

Didn't we have the same discussion as last year ? People here saying the D isn't that bad and it turns out it was. I think we have to face facts that the teams Defense is just not good enough. And for anyone saying it's became Demko was hurt, other teams were able to make do for a handful of months with their backup goaltenders (heck Vegas is on their 3rd goalie now in their conference finals)

Edited May 29, 2023 by iinatcc

[BC_Hawk]

7 hours ago, iinatcc said:

Didn't we have the same discussion as last year ? People here saying the D isn't that bad and it turns out it was. I think we have to face facts that the teams Defense is just not good enough. And for anyone saying it's became Demko was hurt, other teams were able to make do for a handful of months with their backup goaltenders (heck Vegas is on their 3rd goalie now in their conference finals)

This is a totally diff conversation; we now have the Top 4 RHD that we coveted last year. Hronek alone makes us way better in my opinion. Combine that with RT's more defensive system, and the team is leaps and bounds better than last year.

 

VancouverHabitant: Your were right, I did miss Filip. He definitely fits into that fight/competition at LHD, hence why I think we can stand pat there this year. We have gobs of developmental/depth guys there to figure something out. 

 

Bear is probably worth 2-2.5m on a 2-3 year deal. I just don't see his fit here anymore, unless they see him as a longterm fixture at 3rdRHD. In that case, you can't pay him more than 1.5m in that role. But, as previously said, I think that just stunts our ability to develop some good young RHD on the go fwd. I would much rather resign Schenn for 2 years, and put him alongside OEL for 23/24. Then, in 24/25 offseason, use Myers $ to sign a big physical RHD to play 2ndRHD. Schenn can then revert to the 3rdLHD or 7th Dman role if are developmental guys are ready to go and beat him out.

 

[iinatcc]

1 hour ago, BC_Hawk said:

This is a totally diff conversation; we now have the Top 4 RHD that we coveted last year. Hronek alone makes us way better in my opinion. Combine that with RT's more defensive system, and the team is leaps and bounds better than last year.

I wouldn't call it leaps and bounds. Hornek will make the D better but not by that much. I just don't see how come we have to be overconfident with this team again (remember how we were do confident the D got an upgrade because of Schmidt?). We already tried to justify the D good enough before the start of the least season because of the teams' GAA once Boudreau took over (which was mostly due to Demko ). 

 

I think every year we try to find a reason to believe this team is better but I think this team has ran out of "benefit of the doubt" card. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by iinatcc

[mll]

1 hour ago, BC_Hawk said:

This is a totally diff conversation; we now have the Top 4 RHD that we coveted last year. Hronek alone makes us way better in my opinion. Combine that with RT's more defensive system, and the team is leaps and bounds better than last year.

 

VancouverHabitant: Your were right, I did miss Filip. He definitely fits into that fight/competition at LHD, hence why I think we can stand pat there this year. We have gobs of developmental/depth guys there to figure something out. 

 

Bear is probably worth 2-2.5m on a 2-3 year deal. I just don't see his fit here anymore, unless they see him as a longterm fixture at 3rdRHD. In that case, you can't pay him more than 1.5m in that role. But, as previously said, I think that just stunts our ability to develop some good young RHD on the go fwd. I would much rather resign Schenn for 2 years, and put him alongside OEL for 23/24. Then, in 24/25 offseason, use Myers $ to sign a big physical RHD to play 2ndRHD. Schenn can then revert to the 3rdLHD or 7th Dman role if are developmental guys are ready to go and beat him out.

 

 

Why would Rutherford mention a 3rd pairing D in his letter to season ticket holders.  Feels like they think he can evolve into a top-4 D.  

 

[Gawdzukes]

9 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

What are you thinking for our defense for next year?  

 

Filip Johansson gets a spot? Juulsen? I don't think that McWard is ready, he needs at least one year in the AHL. 

Yes, either of those two are better. Woo as well is in there. I would gladly play anyone else than sign Bear to a gaudy contract. It would be like paying Hoglander $3mil for 3 years because we don't have a 3rd line RW. Unless Bear wants to sign a one year deal for under $1.5 get rid of him.

 

  

38 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I wouldn't call it leaps and bounds. Hornek will make the D better but not by much. I just don't see how come we have to be overconfident with this team again (remember how we were do confident the D got an upgrade because of Schmidt?). We already tried to justify the D good enough before the start of the least season because of the teams' GAA once Boudreau took over (which was mostly due to Demko ). 

 

I think every year we try to find a reason to believe this team is better but I think this team has ran out of "benefit of the doubt" card. 

Exactly. Why do people keep telling themselves these fables? The defence is a shambles until we see differently. That's like I wonder if Arizona fans are sitting around telling themselves they have a rock solid team and are playoff bound.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[Guest]

@iinatcc @Gawdzukes defence is one dman away from being good enough for the playoffs.  

 

Getting a big defensive PK guy would fix all the issues and OP was trying to illustrate that our number 1 and 2 dman are higher then league average. I agree with Gawdzukes that I don't think Bear is an adequate number 3 dman (he should be a bottom pairing guy, but not on our team).  

 

I'm hitching my wagon to OEL being a strong number 3 guy, and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. He was a huge disappointment last year and our defense and goaltending provided no safety net for him playing badly/injured. 

 

Which brings me back to the need for a big defensive PK guy, who's experienced and can slot into the number 4 position. It's not gonna be easy to get one and might cost money, but that's why we have Allvin and 27 other managers around the team. 

 

What did you guys think of OEL in 2021-22? 

I was extremely impressed with his play, so that might be the biggest disconnect between our views on the defense. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

@iinatcc @Gawdzukes defence is one dman away from being good enough for the playoffs.  

 

Getting a big defensive PK guy would fix all the issues and OP was trying to illustrate that our number 1 and 2 dman are higher then league average. I agree with Gawdzukes that I don't think Bear is an adequate number 3 dman (he should be a bottom pairing guy, but not on our team).  

 

I'm hitching my wagon to OEL being a strong number 3 guy, and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. He was a huge disappointment last year and our defense and goaltending provided no safety net for him playing badly/injured. 

 

Which brings me back to the need for a big defensive PK guy, who's experienced and can slot into the number 4 position. It's not gonna be easy to get one and might cost money, but that's why we have Allvin and 27 other managers around the team. 

 

What did you guys think of OEL in 2021-22? 

I was extremely impressed with his play, so that might be the biggest disconnect between our views on the defense. 

If OEL is committed to being in the best shape of his career, and he’s healthy he could play a key role for us. Like you point out though, without Bear we need a partner for Hughes. Love to get Tanev back.

Hughes, Tanev

OEL, Hronek

 

Or put Tanev with OEL. 
 

Hughes, Hronek

OEL, Tanev

 

Wolanin, Woo as our bottom pairing. 
 

 

[PhillipBlunt]

With a acquisition of Hronek, the defense is definitely better from a point producing perspective (say that three times fast). However, a top four comprised of Hughes, Bear, Hronek and OEL will be eaten alive in the playoffs. 

[Gawdzukes]

3 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

@iinatcc @Gawdzukes defence is one dman away from being good enough for the playoffs.  

 

Getting a big defensive PK guy would fix all the issues and OP was trying to illustrate that our number 1 and 2 dman are higher then league average. I agree with Gawdzukes that I don't think Bear is an adequate number 3 dman (he should be a bottom pairing guy, but not on our team).  

 

I'm hitching my wagon to OEL being a strong number 3 guy, and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. He was a huge disappointment last year and our defense and goaltending provided no safety net for him playing badly/injured. 

 

Which brings me back to the need for a big defensive PK guy, who's experienced and can slot into the number 4 position. It's not gonna be easy to get one and might cost money, but that's why we have Allvin and 27 other managers around the team. 

 

What did you guys think of OEL in 2021-22? 

I was extremely impressed with his play, so that might be the biggest disconnect between our views on the defense. 

Good post Van Habitant. You hit the nail on the head. While I do say our defence was absolutely horrible last year I'm sure it comes off pessimistic or whatever. That's not my intention but I'd rather be correct than all feel goody on an internet forum. However, despite our ineptness of last season like you say we are only a player or two away from making it far better. In that sense defence is easier to fix than forwards. While the players are harder to find you only need 6 dmen as compared to 12 forwards. So one player can completely turn things around.

 

As you say we got two top players in Hughes and Hronek. I thought OEL was good in 22, not quite as good as some say though. If he can return to form we could be in decent shape. I have encouragement from Tocchet's comments at the end of the year where he says OEL is walking around with a gleam in his eye like he is very focused and going to rebound strongly. We'll see what happens there as it will determine a lot of our success or failure. If we can clear cap and bring in one more guy it could make all the difference. Mayfield or Gudas to play with Hughes are my top choices barring a trade for a more long term partner. Justin Holl is also a name I've heard tossed around. Maybe a guy like Clifton but I would like someone bigger. Not sure what the Bruins and Orlov are planning to do.

 

The biggest difference we have is I'm not going to anoint these guys as playoff worthy until they actually show they are. Currently they are not. Rolling it back with Bear will just mean the season is over before it starts unfortunately. We all saw how terrible he was. He was a dart throw and a throw away from another team. He's replacement level. Allvin and his 27 assistants.  That made me chuckle.

[BC_Hawk]

1 hour ago, VancouverHabitant said:

@iinatcc @Gawdzukes defence is one dman away from being good enough for the playoffs.  

 

Getting a big defensive PK guy would fix all the issues and OP was trying to illustrate that our number 1 and 2 dman are higher then league average. I agree with Gawdzukes that I don't think Bear is an adequate number 3 dman (he should be a bottom pairing guy, but not on our team).  

 

I'm hitching my wagon to OEL being a strong number 3 guy, and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. He was a huge disappointment last year and our defense and goaltending provided no safety net for him playing badly/injured. 

 

Which brings me back to the need for a big defensive PK guy, who's experienced and can slot into the number 4 position. It's not gonna be easy to get one and might cost money, but that's why we have Allvin and 27 other managers around the team. 

 

What did you guys think of OEL in 2021-22? 

I was extremely impressed with his play, so that might be the biggest disconnect between our views on the defense. 

We are perfectly aligned on this; we still need a big defensive 2nd pair RHD. Before Hronek, we needed a top 2 and top 4 RHD.

 

Unfortunately we have Myers which doesn't fit that mold and is sucking up 6m; that is the money that we should use to fill that spot WHEN we can open it up without penalty. With 23/24 being another building year, why retain salary, give up assets or accrue cap penalty on a buy out if all we need to do is wait a year. Once again, if we can offload him for nothing and/or get rid of Boeser, I am all over doing it this year. I have little faith in either of those things happening though.

 

I don't get where people are saying us fans are creating "fables". This is NOT the same D nor system as we started with in 22/23. I for one had been calling the FO out for screwing up the 2022 offseason and not addressing RHD. They made the big move for Hronek, now need to address one more RHD ONCE we have the cap space to do it. 

[BC_Hawk]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

If OEL is committed to being in the best shape of his career, and he’s healthy he could play a key role for us. Like you point out though, without Bear we need a partner for Hughes. Love to get Tanev back.

Hughes, Tanev

OEL, Hronek

 

Or put Tanev with OEL. 
 

Hughes, Hronek

OEL, Tanev

 

Wolanin, Woo as our bottom pairing. 
 

 

IF Tanev is willing to sign a reasonable 1/2 year contract, I am all over it. I see him replacing Schenn as a stop gap in the top4 until we can free up Myers $ to get another RHD. If the deal is 2 years, he can fillout teh 3rd pair spot in 24/25. 

[BC_Hawk]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

With a acquisition of Hronek, the defense is definitely better from a point producing perspective (say that three times fast). However, a top four comprised of Hughes, Bear, Hronek and OEL will be eaten alive in the playoffs. 

Bear, Top 4,and Playoffs are non-compatible terms.

[higgyfan]

35 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

With a acquisition of Hronek, the defense is definitely better from a point producing perspective (say that three times fast). However, a top four comprised of Hughes, Bear, Hronek and OEL will be eaten alive in the playoffs. 

I agree with you on the current situation, but we are still an entire offseason away from the final product.  If

the management can acquire (via trade or UFA) a physically strong, defensive RD veteran, it could change

the Hughes situation quickly.  The biggest change we need to see is OEL returning to his strong play in

his 1st season.  I am hopeful that Hronek will have a positive affect on OEL; which would also cut down on

Hughes' ice time.

 

Gudas, Mayfield, Clifton, Holl, Schenn are the most likely (affordable) UFAs to partner with Hughes.  I'm

not sure that Bear is the guy to rely on 100%, but if they do sign him, I would hope that they have someone

else that could 'share' the role.

[Gawdzukes]

47 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

We are perfectly aligned on this; we still need a big defensive 2nd pair RHD. Before Hronek, we needed a top 2 and top 4 RHD.

 

Unfortunately we have Myers which doesn't fit that mold and is sucking up 6m; that is the money that we should use to fill that spot WHEN we can open it up without penalty. With 23/24 being another building year, why retain salary, give up assets or accrue cap penalty on a buy out if all we need to do is wait a year. Once again, if we can offload him for nothing and/or get rid of Boeser, I am all over doing it this year. I have little faith in either of those things happening though.

 

I don't get where people are saying us fans are creating "fables". This is NOT the same D nor system as we started with in 22/23. I for one had been calling the FO out for screwing up the 2022 offseason and not addressing RHD. They made the big move for Hronek, now need to address one more RHD ONCE we have the cap space to do it. 

When I say that (fables) I mean we haven't even seen Hronek play in a meaningful game yet. Isn't it a bit early to say that our defence went from atrocious and giving up the 9th most goals in the league to playoff caliber without them actually having played a game or even had a practice yet? It seems to be what people do every year and then make excuses as to why their predictions didn't come true.

 

I mean we have no real insight into what OEL we get yet. Myers is still on the team. We currently don't have a bottom pairing set in any way, shape, or form, and we currently don't have a partner for Hughes. So far we have 50% of the starting D set. To me that would seem very presumptuous to just proclaim all of our problems are solved and we're a top defensive team all of the sudden without doing much of anything to improve it besides Hronek, who is more of an offensive defenceman. 

 

I guess in some people's mind's Hronek is Scott Niedermeyer or something maybe. To me it still seems very much up in the air as to what we'll be looking at come next year. It would be different if all those things you mentioned are actually addressed at some point. I guess it seems obvious to me it's a don't count your chickens until they hatch situation. Anything else seems rather short-sighted with all the question marks imo. Some fans just want to believe.

 

I couldn't agree more with your second paragraph. Why waste assets, or use buyouts, etc., when we will finally be in a good position if we just don't panic.

 

@PhillipBlunt @higgyfan @BC_Hawk @VancouverHabitant +'s all around guys. Good posts this morning. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[Dr. Crossbar]

42 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

 

I don't get where people are saying us fans are creating "fables". 

Fable creators need to make other people the fable creators so they're not seen as fable creators. 

 

This is not a fable.

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

When I say that (fables) I mean we haven't even seen Hronek play in a meaningful game yet. Isn't it a bit early to say that our defence went from atrocious and giving up the 9th most goals in the league to playoff caliber without them actually having played a game or even had a practice yet? It seems to be what people do every year and then make excuses as to why their predictions didn't come true.

 

I mean we have no real insight into what OEL we get yet. Myers is still on the team. We currently don't have a bottom pairing set in any way, shape, or form, and we currently don't have a partner for Hughes. To me that would seem very presumptuous to just proclaim all of our problems are solved and we're a top defensive team all of the sudden without doing much of anything to improve it besides Hronek, who is more of an offensive defenceman. 

 

I guess in some people's mind's Hronek is Scott Niedermeyer or something maybe. To me it still seems very much up in the air as to what we'll be looking at come next year. It would be different if all those things you mentioned are actually addressed at some point. I guess it seems obvious to me it's a don't count your chickens until they hatch situation. Anything else seems rather short-sighted with all the question marks imo. Some fans just want to believe.

 

I couldn't agree more with your second paragraph. Why waste assets, or use buyouts, etc., when we will finally be in a good position if we just don't panic.

Hronrek is 25. He’s proven to be a fabulous D. He was the Wings best D man and best player. Go check that club’s record after he went out. He’s going to either be Hughes’ partner snd make the best D pair in the league or he will anchor our second pairing which means we have either Hughes or Hronek on the ice for 50 minutes every game. That’s winning! 
105 point season!