Not a good recipe, it's just not, this team is destined for more failure.

[RU SERIOUS]

11 hours ago, TiTaniuM said:

When you say tearing down the walls to the foundation, does that mean finding 1C,1D and 1G again by acquiring high picks? Are you really not happy with EP40, Hughes and Demko? I can tell you now even with drafting top 5 for 10 years will not guarantee you will have players of those 3’s caliber. We are lucky man. Very lucky that we were able to draft and develop the most important building blocks on the way to being a contender. 

They are exceptional players and love them all and they are still young enough to weather a rebuild - but only if they are willing to.   I highly doubt all three would jump overboard but if one or two did not want to be part of building this franchise from the ground up, including themselves, then they would garner exceptional returns.   It would be a sad day to lose any or all of them but lets face FACTS that this core has been a failure for several years and all we've seen so far for the last decade are peripheral "tinker trades" and that has resulted in what we see today - a team of incompatible players that cannot even get out of the regular season into even a wild card spot.     Sad but TRUE!

 

At some point sanity must prevail and someone needs to take a big breath and admit " THIS AIN'T WORKING" and try something different.    Besides, roughly 80% of thousands of Canucks fans on here (CDC) and on the Donnie & Dhali show, clearly Voted for a Rebuild, so the majority asked for it - not just me.  So those happy with the status Quo are unfortunately in the minority - officially.

 

Unfortunately, it's pretty clear that Major Surgery (a Rebuild) is not in the cards, so lets keep our fingers crossed (yet again) that some of these moves JR is making amount to something - because that's all the hope we have left!   Fingers crossed!

Edited April 13, 2023 by RU SERIOUS

[Baggins]

9 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

NO and of course they'd never say they're tanking - what a thing to even ask about!  but the term "MAJOR Rebuild" inplies more than moving 1 one top Player out of a 23 man Roster - which doesn't exactly qualify as a "Major Rebuild" for most "NORMAL" people but you might be right about a rebuild wasting years off EP40, QH & Demko's time here because it certainly would take time to rebuild and if they're not willing to stick around - trade them.  All 3 would fetch very high returns towards a proper rebuild but the FACT of the matter is that this same Core you talk about has FAILED for several years and can't even get out of the bottom of the basement and squeek into a playoff spot, let alone are not even close to competing for a cup any time in the distant future and after waiting for years for something - anything - to change, here we are again about to enter yet another 6 month long summer sitting on the sidelines due to the Failure of this SAME CORE who have failed us for several years.  FACT!

 

While I'd love nothing more to share your optimism, after not seeing a home playoff game in 8 years (only exceeded by two of the worst teams ever - Arizona & Buffalo) I'd say it's time for something different because every year we hear the exact same excuses and promise that ....'It will be in 2-3 more years - hang in there folks" and it gets a bit repetitive after a while and kind of loses it's meaning. This has been going on for 52 Years !!!!

 

As for your comment about not making panic moves, that doesn't hold much water as Re-signing BB6 and especially Miller on a massive contract until he's almost 40 (ending in the next decade of the 2030's) along with the Still-Man Fiasco and a few other minor yet questionable moves, certainly doesn't garner immense confidence.   But I'll certainly say the Kuzmenko catch was very good but I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to even cash-out on him and trade him in the future as he too could fetch a good return and likely would be too old to weather a rebuild - if they ever went down that road - which doesn't look like will happen..  

 

As for that new injured/unserviceable Detroit kid goes (that we threw away an extremely valuable 1st AND a 2nd Round draft pick for in one of the deepest draft years in a generation) that will take time to prove him worthy or not, as we only saw him play for 26 seconds (yes - that's an exaggeration), so let's not claim him to be the 2nd coming of Christ - just yet.  Hopefully he proves to be a solid player but lets see him play for 3-4 months and we still need 3-4 other good defensemen, even if he turns out O.K. because the rest of our defense is beyond hopeless.

 

Oh, and did I mention we need a REAL B/U Goalie ?

 

[erkayloomeh]

On 4/12/2023 at 1:36 AM, Baggins said:

I never have and never will cheer for my team to lose. Any player on the team not trying to win shouldn't be on the team.

How would it affect the team going into next year if they were setup to lose going down the stretch this year. There is enough talent on this team that we shouldn't be losing anyway.....something else has been wrong with this team.

The last 20 games this year is our training camp for next year. It's structure time and player performance reviews for next year. 

If we were in rebuild then it may be different, but were not. 

I'd rather take the route they are taking and drop 5 spots. 

Just draft well. 

[Baggins]

2 hours ago, erkayloomeh said:

How would it affect the team going into next year if they were setup to lose going down the stretch this year. There is enough talent on this team that we shouldn't be losing anyway.....something else has been wrong with this team.

The last 20 games this year is our training camp for next year. It's structure time and player performance reviews for next year. 

If we were in rebuild then it may be different, but were not. 

I'd rather take the route they are taking and drop 5 spots. 

Just draft well. 

At sixth, when ZTocc took over, the odds of dropping in the draft is considerably higher than moving up. What happened to "this is a deep draft". Suddenly at 8 to 10 it's "we're losing out on a good player". It's all nonsense. You never try to lose. Let the chips fall where they may. 

[Kevin Biestra]

13 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

They are exceptional players and love them all and they are still young enough to weather a rebuild - but only if they are willing to.   I highly doubt all three would jump overboard but if one or two did not want to be part of building this franchise from the ground up, including themselves, then they would garner exceptional returns.   It would be a sad day to lose any or all of them but lets face FACTS that this core has been a failure for several years and all we've seen so far for the last decade are peripheral "tinker trades" and that has resulted in what we see today - a team of incompatible players that cannot even get out of the regular season into even a wild card spot.     Sad but TRUE!

 

At some point sanity must prevail and someone needs to take a big breath and admit " THIS AIN'T WORKING" and try something different.    Besides, roughly 80% of thousands of Canucks fans on here (CDC) and on the Donnie & Dhali show, clearly Voted for a Rebuild, so the majority asked for it - not just me.  So those happy with the status Quo are unfortunately in the minority - officially.

 

Unfortunately, it's pretty clear that Major Surgery (a Rebuild) is not in the cards, so lets keep our fingers crossed (yet again) that some of these moves JR is making amount to something - because that's all the hope we have left!   Fingers crossed!

 

The thing is...we have waited 50 years to get a Hughes.  Never had one before.  They don't guarantee Cups (e.g. Phil Housley or even Brad Park) but far more often than not the Cup winner has one.  We're free from the yoke of the Horvat led culture...we now have Hughes plus what could potentially turn into another defenseman that would or will break the 30+ year old Canucks record for points in a season by a defenseman if Hughes hadn't done it already.

 

Pettersson took a big next step this year (although JT Miller took a step back of almost the same size).  If Demko doesn't get hurt next year and also doesn't spend the first quarter of the season playing like Dan Cloutier in quicksand...there are reasons to think next year will be quite a bit better.

[Canuckfanforlife82]

3 hours ago, erkayloomeh said:

How would it affect the team going into next year if they were setup to lose going down the stretch this year. There is enough talent on this team that we shouldn't be losing anyway.....something else has been wrong with this team.

The last 20 games this year is our training camp for next year. It's structure time and player performance reviews for next year. 

If we were in rebuild then it may be different, but were not. 

I'd rather take the route they are taking and drop 5 spots. 

Just draft well. 

I think it's funny that people think that what they have done at the end of this year will really translate to next year. It just doesn't. Who says we played so well at the end of last year, let's continue on playing like that. There are too many months in between and new players that will be added to think about the way they played February to March. They just need to get off to a hot start. They seem to always trudge along and only kick it into high gear when a coaching change is made. Big holes to fill this summer. I am not sure if it is possible to do so. 

[Canuckfanforlife82]

3 hours ago, erkayloomeh said:

How would it affect the team going into next year if they were setup to lose going down the stretch this year. There is enough talent on this team that we shouldn't be losing anyway.....something else has been wrong with this team.

The last 20 games this year is our training camp for next year. It's structure time and player performance reviews for next year. 

If we were in rebuild then it may be different, but were not. 

I'd rather take the route they are taking and drop 5 spots. 

Just draft well. 

I think it's funny that people think that what they have done at the end of this year will really translate to next year. It just doesn't. Who says we played so well at the end of last year, let's continue on playing like that. There are too many months in between and new players that will be added to think about the way they played February to March. They just need to get off to a hot start. They seem to always trudge along and only kick it into high gear when a coaching change is made. Big holes to fill this summer. I am not sure if it is possible to do so. 
 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Canuckfanforlife82

[McBackup]

1 hour ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

I think it's funny that people think that what they have done at the end of this year will really translate to next year. It just doesn't. Who says we played so well at the end of last year, let's continue on playing like that. There are too many months in between and new players that will be added to think about the way they played February to March. They just need to get off to a hot start. They seem to always trudge along and only kick it into high gear when a coaching change is made. Big holes to fill this summer. I am not sure if it is possible to do so. 
 

I think it’s less about “getting off to a hot start” and more that they only show up when the games no longer matter and the pressure is off. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by McBackup

[erkayloomeh]

3 hours ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

I think it's funny that people think that what they have done at the end of this year will really translate to next year. It just doesn't. Who says we played so well at the end of last year, let's continue on playing like that. There are too many months in between and new players that will be added to think about the way they played February to March. They just need to get off to a hot start. They seem to always trudge along and only kick it into high gear when a coaching change is made. Big holes to fill this summer. I am not sure if it is possible to do so. 

It's equally funny to think they could tank on purpose and then come out flying next year. 

The whole idea right now is to use the games to get the players to play the way he wants them to. 

Sure it's no guarantee that if they end well they will start well.

Big holes to fill. Got to empty a few or we can't fill anything.

 

[TheSnipeshow91]

What a joke. Canucks beating up on teams that aren’t even trying and giving themselves false hope. Ruining our chance at drafting an elite talent in a top heavy draft. Only to overpay in free agency and make another half-assed attempt to make the playoffs. There’s no worse position for a team to be in, stuck in the middle of the pack. You need the best players to win and for that you need to draft as high as possible.

[Canuckfanforlife82]

3 minutes ago, TheSnipeshow91 said:

What a joke. Canucks beating up on teams that aren’t even trying and giving themselves false hope. Ruining our chance at drafting an elite talent in a top heavy draft. Only to overpay in free agency and make another half-assed attempt to make the playoffs. There’s no worse position for a team to be in, stuck in the middle of the pack. You need the best players to win and for that you need to draft as high as possible.

...and they really are in that mediocre group of teams with a mediocre record. Mushy middle. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Canuckfanforlife82

[DownUndaCanuck]

I think the problem is that fans see teams winning Cups have tanked previously, acquired a bunch of top 5 picks in consecutive years and built brilliant cores which result in longevity and consistent cup runs.

 

Meanwhile the Canucks tanked for a bit, we had a bunch of consecutive top 10 picks, blew 2 of them and ended up with 2 super stars. Problem is, those super stars have dragged this dead team from the basement, but aren't enough themselves to carry us to the playoffs.

 

Now management is trying to complement them with pieces outside the draft - via trades and free agency.

 

If you look back at the last few cup winners, there aren't many cores built this way. Obviously teams flesh out their depth with good TDL deals, but most of the time your core 5 or 7 are guys via the draft, and often high picks. 

 

I think the main reason is that you don't trade away stars or let them walk via free agency. An example is Hronek - no way Yzerman gives us his best defenceman, he's a part of their core, but they shed us their 2nd or maybe 3rd best defenceman quite happily and he becomes part of our core.

 

I agree in that this isn't the way to win cups, it might get us into the playoffs but it's not a recipe for sustained success. Problem is Hughes, Petey, Demko and Miller are too good to lose.

 

If we had a really savage GM we'd trade them one by one and make this team worse on purpose, then tank properly. It wouldn't be a fan-friendly move but give it 5 years and imagine the picks and prospects we'd acquire, that's how you start from scratch. Obviously that'd never happen, and there's always a chance we do that and make a mess of the picks yet again.

[wai_lai416]

13 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I think the problem is that fans see teams winning Cups have tanked previously, acquired a bunch of top 5 picks in consecutive years and built brilliant cores which result in longevity and consistent cup runs.

 

Meanwhile the Canucks tanked for a bit, we had a bunch of consecutive top 10 picks, blew 2 of them and ended up with 2 super stars. Problem is, those super stars have dragged this dead team from the basement, but aren't enough themselves to carry us to the playoffs.

 

Now management is trying to complement them with pieces outside the draft - via trades and free agency.

 

If you look back at the last few cup winners, there aren't many cores built this way. Obviously teams flesh out their depth with good TDL deals, but most of the time your core 5 or 7 are guys via the draft, and often high picks. 

 

I think the main reason is that you don't trade away stars or let them walk via free agency. An example is Hronek - no way Yzerman gives us his best defenceman, he's a part of their core, but they shed us their 2nd or maybe 3rd best defenceman quite happily and he becomes part of our core.

 

I agree in that this isn't the way to win cups, it might get us into the playoffs but it's not a recipe for sustained success. Problem is Hughes, Petey, Demko and Miller are too good to lose.

 

If we had a really savage GM we'd trade them one by one and make this team worse on purpose, then tank properly. It wouldn't be a fan-friendly move but give it 5 years and imagine the picks and prospects we'd acquire, that's how you start from scratch. Obviously that'd never happen, and there's always a chance we do that and make a mess of the picks yet again.

the problem is not tanking or top 5 draft picks or what not.. it's this team never rebuilt properly once.. the last time we "rebuilt" was the brian burke era when we drafted the 2 sedins.. since then when was the last time the team "rebuilt" after 2013 2014.. we should have been rebuilding.. but instead we retooled.. instead of amassing a mass amount of draft picks and pray we hit 1 or 2 gems in the later round.. every single season. with the exception of 2014.. the canucks have less pick than they started off with and always missing 1 or 2 of their own picks in the first 3 rounds every single season.. the canucks have been taking short cuts every step of the way. With the exception of Vegas Seattle and probably Boston.. which teams havent gone thru a rebuild in the past say 10-15 years? maybe throw minnesota and nashville into that mix but that's prolly while they are stuck in mud in the realm of good enough to compete for the playoff.. never will be a threat for the cup. 

 

Hughes EP Demko and Miller is prolly good enough to make sure we don't bottom out and be the worse team in the league.. but that doesn't stop the GM from being a seller... and there's no reason for the team to not alternate goalies in march or stop playing QH almost 30 mins a night... they are coaching and deploying players like they are fighting for a playoff spot against the worse teams in the league for crying out loud.. i don't know what exactly it shows.. we can beat the bad teams if we play desperation game 7 hockey every game?

 

anyways i hope whatever they are planning will work? EP kuz and hughes are exciting to watch.. but we have way too many holes to plug imo for this team to be a cup contender.. if the prospect in the system can plug those holes maybe we have a chance.. but i really don't see us plugging those holes with value UFA signings.. good players usually don't get to ufa.. and when they get to ufa?? it's coz they want to be paid.. nor are we loaded in prospects to be able to swing a trade with a team for a coveted player.

[spook007]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:04 AM, DSVII said:

The word "shot" is doing some extremely heavy lifting here. It's a shot yes. But almost 5x less than what the tanking teams have. It'll be divine comedy if Detroit ends up drafting reinbacher.

 

i also find it just as weird celebrating dunking on tanking teams as a sign of forward progress in October. 

 

Buying at the TDL while under .500 and doing a coaching bump in the middle of the season is weird.

 

Being a fan just makes us weird in general. 

 

 

It definitely set the record straight, as to how the management and owners saw the way forward.

Agree, if ever there were a time, to just let the horse run, or as in our case, crawl, this would have been it, if they wanted a good pick this season.

[DownUndaCanuck]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

the problem is not tanking or top 5 draft picks or what not.. it's this team never rebuilt properly once.. the last time we "rebuilt" was the brian burke era when we drafted the 2 sedins.. since then when was the last time the team "rebuilt" after 2013 2014.. we should have been rebuilding.. but instead we retooled.. instead of amassing a mass amount of draft picks and pray we hit 1 or 2 gems in the later round.. every single season. with the exception of 2014.. the canucks have less pick than they started off with and always missing 1 or 2 of their own picks in the first 3 rounds every single season.. the canucks have been taking short cuts every step of the way. With the exception of Vegas Seattle and probably Boston.. which teams havent gone thru a rebuild in the past say 10-15 years? maybe throw minnesota and nashville into that mix but that's prolly while they are stuck in mud in the realm of good enough to compete for the playoff.. never will be a threat for the cup. 

 

Hughes EP Demko and Miller is prolly good enough to make sure we don't bottom out and be the worse team in the league.. but that doesn't stop the GM from being a seller... and there's no reason for the team to not alternate goalies in march or stop playing QH almost 30 mins a night... they are coaching and deploying players like they are fighting for a playoff spot against the worse teams in the league for crying out loud.. i don't know what exactly it shows.. we can beat the bad teams if we play desperation game 7 hockey every game?

 

anyways i hope whatever they are planning will work? EP kuz and hughes are exciting to watch.. but we have way too many holes to plug imo for this team to be a cup contender.. if the prospect in the system can plug those holes maybe we have a chance.. but i really don't see us plugging those holes with value UFA signings.. good players usually don't get to ufa.. and when they get to ufa?? it's coz they want to be paid.. nor are we loaded in prospects to be able to swing a trade with a team for a coveted player.

Agreed, they used up 2 massive pieces with the first and second to plug a hole with Hronek, but he's not enough by himself - we still have massive gaps across the lineup, namely at 3rd line center and a shutdown defensive defenceman. Problem is we aren't in a position to be sellers or sacrifice youth for these types of players.

 

I do hope they can get sneaky and acquire a lot of these guys through free agency, but then there's the big problem of cap as well - how we get out of 13M of bad defensive cap and around 15M in expensive middle 6 wingers is another problem.

[JeremyCuddles]

This is the first team in Canucks history to have a 100 point scorer and miss the playoffs. Worse yet, we almost did it two years in a row. Miller had 99 points past year. This does kind of bode well for the "retool" angle. I guess. 

[DSVII]

The trick is at the start of next season, tell the boys they are already 20 pts out of a playoff spot and it's march 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by DSVII

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Agreed, they used up 2 massive pieces with the first and second to plug a hole with Hronek, but he's not enough by himself - we still have massive gaps across the lineup, namely at 3rd line center and a shutdown defensive defenceman. Problem is we aren't in a position to be sellers or sacrifice youth for these types of players.

 

I do hope they can get sneaky and acquire a lot of these guys through free agency, but then there's the big problem of cap as well - how we get out of 13M of bad defensive cap and around 15M in expensive middle 6 wingers is another problem.

I wouldn't call a 3rd line center a "massive gap".  

 

Teams are missing a 1st or 2nd line center, finding a grinder right handed center isn't something that will make or break our season.  

 

I do feel that we need to add one big defensive dman that can play on the PK. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

4 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

I wouldn't call a 3rd line center a "massive gap".  

 

Teams are missing a 1st or 2nd line center, finding a grinder right handed center isn't something that will make or break our season.  

 

I do feel that we need to add one big defensive dman that can play on the PK. 

Yep, we go out and sign Gavrikov and we're a much different team - a lot like how Edmonton were just chugging along as an offensive wonder-team and then acquire Ekholm and are now basically unbeatable.

 

Gavrikov would add this element we're missing - grit, toughness and wise defensive ability. Watching him on the PK for LA is just magic, nothing gets past him. We could split our defensive pairings so well then - puck movers like Hughes and Hronek get more PP time and free reign whereas Gavrikov and OEL/Burroughs just sit back and defend for their lives.

[alt kilgore]

8 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I think the problem is that fans see teams winning Cups have tanked previously, acquired a bunch of top 5 picks in consecutive years and built brilliant cores which result in longevity and consistent cup runs.

 

Meanwhile the Canucks tanked for a bit, we had a bunch of consecutive top 10 picks, blew 2 of them and ended up with 2 super stars. Problem is, those super stars have dragged this dead team from the basement, but aren't enough themselves to carry us to the playoffs.

 

Now management is trying to complement them with pieces outside the draft - via trades and free agency.

 

If you look back at the last few cup winners, there aren't many cores built this way. Obviously teams flesh out their depth with good TDL deals, but most of the time your core 5 or 7 are guys via the draft, and often high picks. 

 

I think the main reason is that you don't trade away stars or let them walk via free agency. An example is Hronek - no way Yzerman gives us his best defenceman, he's a part of their core, but they shed us their 2nd or maybe 3rd best defenceman quite happily and he becomes part of our core.

 

I agree in that this isn't the way to win cups, it might get us into the playoffs but it's not a recipe for sustained success. Problem is Hughes, Petey, Demko and Miller are too good to lose.

 

If we had a really savage GM we'd trade them one by one and make this team worse on purpose, then tank properly. It wouldn't be a fan-friendly move but give it 5 years and imagine the picks and prospects we'd acquire, that's how you start from scratch. Obviously that'd never happen, and there's always a chance we do that and make a mess of the picks yet again.

 

Its been such a comedy of errors and bad luck, bad timing, for this franchise. 

 

Benning was IMO, the worst GM in our history.  Our team was perfect for rebuilding in 2014.  A roster ripe with veterans, playoff savvy vets, still with a few good years left in them.  Yeah some had NTCs and NMCs, but GMs have always found ways to convince players to waive. There was no attempt even.  We had no prospects because of our high standing in the league from years of finishing high. That and Gillis relied too much on his historically inept amateur scouting department under Ron Delorme.

 

The damage Benning did to this organization is living years past his departure.  It is more more about salvaging what we can. Take the few good developments and move on. Understanding that during those eight long years JB force fed fans an "accidental" kinda rebuild. By his (and Aqua's) stubborn insanity in doing something over and over with the same results.  His perpetual goal of squeaking into the playoffs, each season he was here. Right to the end with his final shot in the dark, the OEL trade.   Trouble is, each time he doubled down, this team was already down....in picks, prospects, other overpriced contracts, and so we always ended up losing value exponentially through his tenure. 

 

There should have at least come a point in Benning's tenure, when he woke up and said "Like you know, um, like this turning it around quickly isn't...um...working.  And like, we now have this young Swedish phenom, and this highly rated young D prospect, and this young Demko looks like he's coming along, so like, you know, maybe like I should abandon this quick fix strategy NOW, while I have these kids on ELCs".

Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, Jim, there's still time to change the road you're on.

No Miller or OEL. Keep the two firsts, a second and third.  Shoulda coulda woulda.

 

So JB fumbled along, trying to patch together some kind of rag tag team of badly scouted, aging overpaid vets and C grade AHLers to compliment a  couple of young promising but green prospects.  Until they grew up, into their primes, and had no quality support, either on forward or defense. What's a new GM to do?

 

JR inherited a team with one foot in a rebuild, and one foot in a retool. With none of those two factors done well. A weak rebuild....if you looked at the farm prospect situation, and a failed retool....if you look at the revolving door of overpaid declining veterans and buyouts and anchor contracts. JR was put into a very difficult spot. Benning has so gone past the best before date for a proper deep rebuild, that JR almost had no choice but to see the retool through. How can you waste Petey and Hughes and Demko at this stage?

 

I look at it this way, a proper rebuild, if it had been started years ago, would have had, say, a 90% of getting to contender status in 5 - 10 years. Its a pretty simple blunt tool method, but it usually works.  It just may take time. A retool, is much more trickier to accomplish balancing so many things each off season.  (Way above JB's pay grade) And I'd give it more like a 75% chance, with a good management. Which I think we have now. The advantage is we know we have a good core, and if it works, it may only take one or two seasons. So its higher odds, but shorter time frame and with a core who's quality may be difficult to replace.  The odds of this working are directly related to the young talent already here. We have the hardest part done...other than maybe one more quality defenseman....with a high calibre core. So I have faith that JR and PA can find complimentary pieces to surround this core.  I guess its also that I kinda have to have faith, we don't have much choice or go bonkers living in the past dreaming of a magical rebuild with Conner Bedard.