The Wayne Gretzky Discussion Thread

[Slegr]

9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 I can see Petey hitting 120+ points. Maybe more. 

I think that’s in the realm of possibility too, which is why I really hope we extend him this offseason. 

[BarnBurner]

4 minutes ago, Slegr said:

I think that’s in the realm of possibility too, which is why I really hope we extend him this offseason. 

More than likely, we're not re-signing him this offseason. 

 

He's going to bet on himself, and if he improves upon last year, he's going to get paid extremely well. 

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

3 minutes ago, Mbnuckfan said:

Mario goals per game 0.75

Wayne goals per game 0.60

This is a true. However, that stat is misleading. Gretzky played 20 years. After about 12 years he didn’t score many goals.  He was pretty much a playmaker in his 30’s. Which pushed that goals per game stat way down. 
 

Also, Gretzky played 500 more games than Lemieux. So as he got older and played more games his goal production slowed down considerably. 
 

Let’s look at this way. Lemieux played 915 games and scored 690 goals. So his goals per game was 0.75. Gretzky’s first 12 seasons he played 925 games. He scored 718 goals. So his goals per game was 0.78. That’s a much fairer assessment. 

[Mbnuckfan]

8 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

This is a true. However, that stat is misleading. Gretzky played 20 years. After about 12 years he didn’t score many goals.  He was pretty much a playmaker in his 30’s. Which pushed that goals per game stat way down. 
 

Also, Gretzky played 500 more games than Lemieux. So as he got older and played more games his goal production slowed down considerably. 
 

Let’s look at this way. Lemieux played 915 games and scored 690 goals. So his goals per game was 0.75. Gretzky’s first 12 seasons he played 925 games. He scored 718 goals. So his goals per game was 0.78. That’s a much fairer assessment. 

I can sort of agree, but we'll never know what marios trajectory would've been had he been injury free. There are always ways to manipulate stats to suit arguments this site is very good for that lol

[PunjabiCanucks]

 

[Kevin Biestra]

27 minutes ago, Mbnuckfan said:

I can sort of agree, but we'll never know what marios trajectory would've been had he been injury free. There are always ways to manipulate stats to suit arguments this site is very good for that lol

 

Guys like Bossy and Bure and to a lesser extent Lemieux "benefit" from having their career ended early because they are frozen forever at the height of their powers, hence Bossy's gawdy goals per game which would probably have gone through the similar decline we see from everyone else like Brett Hull etc. if they follow a natural career trajectory.

 

Lemieux of course had his comebacks and in his final year was producing at human levels but people just forget about that year like Michael Jordan with the Wizards...whereas we went the whole slow ride with Gretzky from a 200 point player to a point a game player.

 

Mario would have been good competition for Gretzky if his career had been unimpeded.  Probably 2500 points or something.

[Kevin Biestra]

Anyway if anybody hasn't seen the 30 for 30 documentary "King's Ransom" (one of the first ones ever made) it's worth a look.  Maybe the most I have liked one of those documentaries and they're generally pretty good.  Wayne says those Oilers won four Cups and if they had stayed together they would have probably won four more.  Sounds about right.  Wayne was gone after 1988 and was still leading teams to the final in 1993, Messier in 1994, Coffey in 1995.  That's still pulling teams to the final seven years after Gretzky was gone (eight after Coffey left).  Hard to imagine they wouldn't have won it four out of seven years.  They'd have their 1986's thrown in there from time to time and get knocked out.  Kurri and Anderson were declining at more human rates by 1993 or so but there could / would have been turnover around Gretzky / Messier / Fuhr / Coffey.  Those four still totally had it well into the 90s.  Fuhr was playing over 70 or 75 games a season still in 1997.

 

Gretzky...  Never seen anything like him since.  Mario is as close as it gets...and the drop from Mario to #3 in the years with Gretzky and after is a bigger drop than from Gretzky to Mario.  People say the goalies sucked back then.  They were great athletes.  But they were dressed like baseball backcatchers instead of like the ED-209 from Robocop.  Modern techniques were developed to maximize net coverage with Michelin Man pads and so on.  Back then it was a quarter of the way toward being a soccer goalie.  You had to read the player and commit to where you thought the puck was going...otherwise just be caught flat footed committing to nothing at all.  That worked in Gretzky's favor.  The sticks players used back then did not...and Gretzky scored lots of goals with his slapshot.  That would be faster today with the same Gretzky playing...and all of the rules that have been made to help scoring (no obstruction, no red line etc.) have been added since his day.  With Gretzky they added rules to stop him personally from scoring (nobody goes off the ice for coincidental minors).

 

 

Edited August 13 by Kevin Biestra

[shiznak]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Gretzky is pretty modest. He says that Howe is the greatest player ever. The fact is that Gretzky holds all of the goal scoring records not Lemieux. 
 

If you want to get technical about it then Bossy was a better goal scorer than both of them. He has the best goals per game average in NHL history. 
 

Gretzky even holds the record for most short handed goals in NHL history. 

Gretzky hold these records because of the longevity of his career. Mario would be just behind Gretzky in points, if he wasn’t hampered with injuries and wasn’t diagnosed with cancer. He surely would’ve had the goals record, if he didn’t miss 4 full seasons, with his treatment. Even after his battle with cancer, he came back and still managed to score 90+ points in 70 games.

 

Also, he probably would have broken Gretzky’s single season goals record and points record, if he didn’t miss a months worth of games in the 92-93 season.

Mario was more talented and just better offensively than Gretzky. However, Gretzky’s hockey sense triumph everybody in his era. That’s why he put up those godly numbers. He wasn’t the most talented one, he was just ahead of everybody else and slow the game down. 

 

 

Edited August 13 by shiznak

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, shiznak said:

Gretzky hold these records because of the longevity of his career. Mario would be just behind Gretzky in points, if he wasn’t hampered with injuries and wasn’t diagnosed with cancer. He surely would’ve had the goals record, if he didn’t miss 4 full seasons, with his treatment. Even after his battle with cancer, he came back and still managed to score 90+ points in 70 games.

 

Also, he probably would have broken Gretzky’s single season goals record and points record, if he didn’t miss a months worth of games in the 92-93 season.

Mario was more talented and just better offensively than Gretzky. However, Gretzky’s hockey sense triumph everybody in his era. That’s why he put up those godly numbers. He wasn’t the most talented one, he was just ahead of everybody else and slow the game down.

 

Gretzky beat Gordie Howe's career scoring record around 1991 I think.  About 11 or 12 years into his NHL career.  And then he scored over another 1000 points (a separate Hall of Fame career in addition) after that.

 

I don't think it's clear that Lemieux would have had the goals record.  I think he probably wouldn't have slowed down with the goals as much as Gretzky did though in the latter part of his career.  Anyway yeah Mario would have had a real shot at the 92 and the 215 in 1993.  Nobody watching Gretzky and Lemieux would have ever thought somebody would be winning the Art Ross Trophy with less than 90 points in the not too distant future.

 

 

 

Edited August 13 by Kevin Biestra

[shiznak]

6 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Gretzky beat Gordie Howe's career scoring record around 1991 I think.  About 11 or 12 years into his NHL career.  And then he scored over another 1000 points (a separate Hall of Fame career in addition) after that.

 

I don't think it's clear that Lemieux would have had the goals record.  I think he probably wouldn't have slowed down with the goals as much as Gretzky did though in the latter part of his career.  Anyway yeah Mario would have had a real shot at the 92 and the 215 in 1993.

 

 

Mario is only 200 shy of Gretzky’s goal record, in 500+ less games. Considering he played 9 seasons of 25 or less games. I think it’s safe to say he probably would have beaten that record even with his decline in the later years. Remember, he had to retire in his prime. Before his retirement, the season prior he scored 50 goals.

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Wayne Gretzky has almost DOUBLE the amount of points as McDavid before turning 27...

 

 

I got blasted for suggesting McDavid belongs in the same category of players as Hawerchuk and Stastny...Stastny of course started later.   This was a couple years ago...even with his boffo season, he's not catching him.   Era adjusted, well look at save percentages last year...was it .901 or .903 by the end?   Maybe, just maybe it has to do with things like talent levels too.   21 teams versus 32 and all that.   

Edited August 13 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, shiznak said:

Mario is only 200 shy of Gretzky’s goal record, in 500+ less games. Considering he played 9 seasons of 25 or less games. I think it’s safe to say he probably would have beaten that record even with his decline in the later years. Remember, he had to retire in his prime. Before his retirement, the season prior he scored 50 goals.

Thing is too, if you compare the seasons they did play at the same age, Gretzky still has him beat by a fair margin.   Two seasons were close to comparable as far as PPG.   One really and it was shortened by quite a bit.   Mario and Orr are the only guys that can even be talked about with Gretzky.   Gretzky had injuries too, back, neck and shoulder.  

[iinatcc]

Wayne Gretzky is proof you don't need to get a high draft pick to get a franchise player

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Wayne Gretzky is proof you don't need to get a high draft pick to get a franchise player

 

Sort of...  I mean Gretzky was the most guaranteed to go 1st overall that anyone ever has been.  It was a very unique set of circumstances that saw him sign with the WHA to go pro a year early before being drafted.  Otherwise...whoever had drafted him would have probably had the dynasty.  And it was more strange circumstances to see Gretzky traded / sold in the WHA and then the team he was sold to absorbed into the NHL the next year as is.  It's really more a case study in the bizarre rather than a case study for predicting anything in the future.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Gretzky beat Gordie Howe's career scoring record around 1991 I think.  About 11 or 12 years into his NHL career.  And then he scored over another 1000 points (a separate Hall of Fame career in addition) after that.

 

I don't think it's clear that Lemieux would have had the goals record.  I think he probably wouldn't have slowed down with the goals as much as Gretzky did though in the latter part of his career.  Anyway yeah Mario would have had a real shot at the 92 and the 215 in 1993.  Nobody watching Gretzky and Lemieux would have ever thought somebody would be winning the Art Ross Trophy with less than 90 points in the not too distant future.

 

 

 

After the 80's and 90's, and the talent the league brought in from Europe to help expansion not drain too much (it did regardless, brought us the dead puck era), the 2000's were truly a disappointment.    When those great players retired and aged out ... they weren't been replaced.  No Bure, Selanne, Federov, Mogilny, Yzerman, Sakic, Sundin,  Gartner,  Hull, Robattiale, Stastny, Bossy, Potvin, Al Mac, Leetch,  Housley, Borque, Lindros, Hasek, Beflour, Roy, Jagr and yes Messier etc etc etc.   Joe New versus Iginla.   Well it took some time but  we did manage that.   Martin St. Louis.   Lecavalier.  Sedins.   Campbell.  Rafalski  Gonchar.  Datsyuk, Lecavalier, Richards, Lecavalier not really the same.   It was the aging stars mostly carrying the mail, Chelios,  Jagr, Sundin, Sakic, Pronger, Selanne,  Naslund, Forsberg, Neidermayer, Alfie Broduer, Lidstrom etc etc.   We did have Luongo.  

 

It took a long time to get a Crosby, Bergeron, Ovi etc.   Sure nice that it appears the league is finally turning a corner on talent levels increasing.   And such a great crop of young D's too. 

 

Edit:  Second most points as a D in the 2000's... anyone want to guess?  Rafalski.  All 5'10 of him, averaging around 42-43 points lol.   Zubov scored 71 after the lockout at age 37, after years of scoring mid 50's in the dead puck era.   Alfie who I should have added to the list, scored over 100 at 34 or something, Sakic did the same at 37.     It was so bad, they had to actually remove the redline and eliminate a pass!    Sure would have loved to see that in the 80's and the 90's. 

Edited August 13 by IBatch

[shiznak]

17 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Thing is too, if you compare the seasons they did play at the same age, Gretzky still has him beat by a fair margin.   Two seasons were close to comparable as far as PPG.   One really and it was shortened by quite a bit.   Mario and Orr are the only guys that can even be talked about with Gretzky.   Gretzky had injuries too, back, neck and shoulder.  

But Gretz played way more games compared to Mario.

 

From age 19-30

Gretzky - 927 games, 718 goals 

Lemieux - 669 games, 563 goals
 

Mario has never played a full season throughout his career. His highest game played was 79 and he only did that once. Gretzky played 75 or more games 14 times in his career. Compare to Mario who only had 4 seasons of 75 games or more. 

[IBatch]

Gretzky hype is what got me into collecting stickers and asking Mom and Dad to take put me in hockey.    It was just unreal.

 

Like EP, he was my favourite player, well him and Coffey growing up.    What he could do with the puck was just unbelievable.   Thought the game five or six steps ahead.   Some of the things you see now as normal, are things he started.   He is an all-time great stickhandler, going against Gretzky was tough, would make a fool of you likely.

 

A lot of of what he did was opposite of what you'd expect.    Like he was reading the other players mind.   He'd force goalies to react, then shoot the puck in a tiny opening that was only there for a moment.     He's the most dominant athlete in the history of pro sports.   Better than Jordan.   Woods.  Any baseball guy.    If you're ahead of second place by that much ... yikes.  

 

Just imagine if he retired after 11 years.  He's still have beat Howe.   That's nuts.    Howe didn't have a 100 point season until he was 40.  

 

His stats are so gaudy, it makes hyperbole seem understated.   Guy was so good, all the LA royalty started going to games.   Made generations of fans.  
 

The Oilers dynasty was blown up just as it was entering its prime.   Ten cups seemed doable.   Heck without their two best superstars, they still won a cup in 1990.  Without Furh too.    Messier got under his shadow and built his own legend in NY.    IF EDM stuck together, and they played PIT in the early 90's, it probably would have been the best collection of players ever to play against each other in a final. 

[IBatch]

Tier one 

 

1. Gretzky

2. Orr

3.  Mario 

 

Tier two

 

1. Howe 

2. Roy

3. Potvin

4. Borque 

5. Coffey

6. Jagr

7. Hull senior (1000 pro goals) 

8. Messier 

9. Yzerman 

10. Sakic 

11. Crosby (will move up)

12.  Ovi (see above)

13. Hasek

14.  Robinson (best all around D)

15.  Lidstrom or Al Mac 

 

Close cuts:  Al Mac or Lidstrom or Pronger ..Lafluer.   Clark.   Harvey.  Esposito, Sawchuk.  Shore.   Just can't do the older guys original six...would need help from Smithers Joe and what his elders had to say about them. 

 

Edit:  As for Roy.   No goalie changed the position as much as he did.  Hall actually was the first to do it though.   Plante of course is a close second going with the mask.   Look at Roy's save percentage in the 80's and the early 90's, and how that changed during the dead puck era.  Went from .901-903 or so (this years average) to .920 etc.   He wasn't getting "better" neither were all the goalies at the same time lol as they "aged".    Dead puck era. 

 

 His best ever? 1993.   Best goalie performance by far i've ever seen.   Watched every game.   And he beat Broduer in a seven game series to take home his all-time leading, 3rd Conn Smythe.    Why I have him ahead of Hasek and Plante.   And Sawchuk. 

 

Edited August 13 by IBatch

[iinatcc]

35 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Tier one 

 

1. Gretzky

2. Orr

3.  Mario 

 

Tier two

 

1. Howe 

2. Roy

3. Potvin

4. Borque 

5. Coffey

6. Jagr

7. Hull senior (1000 pro goals) 

8. Messier 

9. Yzerman 

10. Sakic 

11. Crosby (will move up)

12.  Ovi (see above)

13. Hasek

14.  Robinson (best all around D)

15.  Lidstrom or Al Mac 

 

Close cuts:  Al Mac or Lidstrom or Pronger ..Lafluer.   Clark.   Harvey.  Esposito, Sawchuk.  Shore.   Just can't do the older guys original six...would need help from Smithers Joe and what his elders had to say about them. 

 

Edit:  As for Roy.   No goalie changed the position as much as he did.  Hall actually was the first to do it though.   Plante of course is a close second going with the mask.   Look at Roy's save percentage in the 80's and the early 90's, and how that changed during the dead puck era.  Went from .901-903 or so (this years average) to .920 etc.   He wasn't getting "better" neither were all the goalies at the same time lol as they "aged".    Dead puck era. 

 

 His best ever? 1993.   Best goalie performance by far i've ever seen.   Watched every game.   And he beat Broduer in a seven game series to take home his all-time leading, 3rd Conn Smythe.    Why I have him ahead of Hasek and Plante.   And Sawchuk. 

 

Maybe Howe deserves to be in tier one? I never saw him play during the early 90's I remember hearing Howe as comparable to Gretzky 

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Gretzky hype is what got me into collecting stickers and asking Mom and Dad to take put me in hockey.    It was just unreal.

 

Like EP, he was my favourite player, well him and Coffey growing up.    What he could do with the puck was just unbelievable.   Thought the game five or six steps ahead.   Some of the things you see now as normal, are things he started.   He is an all-time great stickhandler, going against Gretzky was tough, would make a fool of you likely.

 

Heh that's part of the reason I'm always pumping King Richard's tires.  Hockey enrollment in Vancouver went through the roof after 1982.  It was like teenagers joining the air force after seeing Top Gun.

 

Paul Coffey was probably my favorite player to watch who wasn't a Canuck.  Never seen anybody skate like that.  There are guys as fast like Gartner but nobody was that fast and looked like they could be a figure skater if they wanted to while putting up 100 points.  Doug Lidster might be the closest thing I've seen in a Canucks uniform...maybe the fully developed Hedican.