uselessstats
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Posts posted by uselessstats
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Yeah he's had some good chances. He blew by Franson with ease. He's had at least 3 breakaways or partial breakaways this season by my count (possibly more) . He's looking pretty solid for a young 19 year old. I still can't believe he can skate so fast for such a big strong body. That combination is like an oxymoron. How can one be big and strong but also one of the fastest skaters? Back when Nintendo came out with the game ice hockey, you could choose a fat player who was big and slow but a hard shot or a skinny guy who was fast but weak and a weak shot.
Virtanen is like the best of both worlds. Big, strong, hard shot, and fast.
I'm enjoying watching the youth grow this year and could care less about the final results. I will care in about 2-3 years though.
Haha, me and my buddy used to play that game for hours when we were 8 or 9.
But ya I totally agree on Jake. He's a work in progress and I'm confident Jake at 21 will look quite a bit more polished than Jake at 19. Just needs to figure out how to use his unique tools to best use in this league. I'm happy with his progress so far even though he is still far from polished. Just hope to see Willie give him some consistent ice time (10-12 minutes is ideal) and line mates (Burrows is a good fit and mentor) to bring his game along.
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Canuck fans should be excited about how Virtanen is coming along. He looks better every game. Let him play and have another close look in 40 games. He can dominate in a shift. Not many young players can do that.
Agree. He's looked very good in 2 of the 3 games since he 'made' the team. Didn't look as good against Pittsburgh but then playing 6 minutes tends to do that. Probably should have scored on that breakaway (player got his stick on Jake's the instant before he shoots) and was involved in some other nice plays in the first and second. For a kid barely 19 and a dozen games into his NHL career he is showing a ton of promise so far. Ya he's not likely to win an Art Ross or anything but he projects to be a very fast, aggressive, goal scoring winger. How many is the question but I'm excited to see how he looks in 40 games and with consistent ice time and line mates.
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all virtanen is going to be is a chris krieder and not a rick nash due to his hockey iq; craig button was right you can see it jakes game, he doesn't make slick passes or get in the right position. todays game hamuis had a rush and guess were jake went? BEHIND HAMUIS! he should of been crashing the net, and again with burrows trying to set him, but he was in the wrong position, look at Mccann skating around the net on Higgins goal- that's hockey iq and jake doesn't have it, most he can become is a Chris Kreider, 40 points?
Awwww that sucks. I was really hoping Jake would develop and improve but you've given an iron clad argument for why he'll never ever get any better than he was today in his 11th NHL game.
Now I'm sad. Thanks a lot!
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it's semantics. We are Canuck's fans and our prospects are just fine. I would like a top D prospect to go along with Hutton though.
Not really. If you need to make things up to support your opinion then what you really have is an imagination or fiction. If you have some tangible support then it becomes a defensible opinion.
While both get thrown around here like cheap confetti they don't both hold equal weight in a discussion.
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having an opinion is, by definition, making things up. Although I do understand your concept.
You're thinking of an imagination.
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I disagree with his Virtanen opinion too, but it's his and he's entitled to it. Is it crossing the line though, when he continues to promote other teams' prospects as better choices than Virtanen? What would happen if we went to the Toronto board and posted how McCann is doing great in the NHL, while Nylander is only in the AHL, and that The Leafs clearly messed up, and it's looking like Nylander is a bust? We could post lots of stats showing guys who had similar AHL stats to Nylander who busted, like Vey for example.
Everyone is free to have an opinion but people are under no obligation to respect it if you can't back it up with reasonable support. Most of the Jake-bashing around here has lacked objective support and generally relies on sliding the goal posts around to suit their inconsistent narrative.
Guy makes a defensive mistake? Clearly not ready to play in the NHL. Horrible draft pick. Why oh why didn't we draft Ehlers?
Plays a quiet, steady game in his own zone? Where are the shots? Where are the shoooooooots?
Takes a lot of shots? Anyone can shoot it. I demand goals.
Score a goal? But that team isn't as good as the one McCann scored against tonight (Pittsburgh).
Get told that McCann didn't actually score a goal against Pittsburgh? Hide your head and don't come into the thread for a few days until you think people have forgotten about it.
Rinse and repeat.
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I tried to keep it to one page, but I finally had to cave and let it spill over to a second page.
Virtanen's having a good game today though.
He has but let's look at it thru Down Unda's eyes:
- Took a horrible penalty that showed his lack of hockey IQ;
- Didn't do much outside of some far out shots, some average passes, and some useless hits. Jared McCann (a real (prospect) on the other hand had some nice shots, nice passes, and a nice hit.
- Any good play by Virtanen doesn't count because Buffalo is a bad team. Call me when he dangles Shea Weber and scores on Patrick Roy.
Think that should cover it.
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For a good comparison, look at what McCann did. Single-handedly scores a monster goal in the Pittsburgh game to give us a chance.
Are you sure you watch *Canuck* games?
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/game/pittsburgh-penguins-vancouver-canucks-20151104/Stats
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Admittedly it is very early in the season, however some posters are claiming Jake has been 'underwhelming' or 'deficient' through his first 9 games, so lets take a look at the numbers available to us to see if that backs up those assertions:
Here's a compilation of 5v5 data for 10 prominent rookies this year, plus 1 sophomore from Jake's draft (Pastrnak):
A few things to look at:
- Jake is tied for 7th out of 10 in 5v5 scoring.
- Jake is by far the lowest total minutes played.
- Looking at rate data, Jake is 6th in Points/60, just below Max Domi. He is 3rd in shots/60 behind only Ehlers and Eichel.
- Looking at possession stats, Jake is 5th in individual Fenwick (shots taken + blocked) per 60 and 4th in individual Corsi (shots taken + blocked + missed net) per 60 behind Ehlers, McCann, Larkin (close), and Eichel (close).
None of this factors in hits or physical play, which would be very lopsided in Jake's favour. So my take on the numbers so far:
- Jake has had a slower start to his NHL career than most of the other prominent rookies in the NHL, playing around 50%-60% of the minutes that McDavid, Ehlers, Larkin, Domi, and Eichel have played so far. This is as much a function of being on a veteran team with a playoff-minded coach as anything.
- Despite these limited minutes, his shot rate and possession stats are quite good, ranking in the top third or top half of this rookie cohort. Clearly when Jake is on the ice, he isn't killing his team's possession relative to other rookies.
- His scoring is a bit slower to follow, with just 3 5v5 points on the season. However when we account for his low minutes played, he's just below the median and above guys like Reinhart, Pastrnak, Eichel, and Sam Bennett.
So while I wouldn't argue Jake is a leading Calder contender based on either the eye test or the underlying stats, he appears to be holding his own with numbers comparable to other rookies and 2014 draft picks who are similarly learning the NHL game. And considering Jake just showed by far his best NHL game to-date the other night, it is possible that we will see an up-tick in Jake's performance and metrics soon.
Either way, the numbers hardly support the notion that he has been 'underwhelming' or 'deficient' so far in the season. Certainly he looks like a rookie at times and has things to learn and improve on. But the good news is that pretty much every rookie who has ever stepped into the NHL has had to do the same. Jake is no exception to this, nor should we expect him to be.
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Because the level of delusion here about a guy who got drafted 6th and who only hits well is at an all-time high.
I understand that the guy is learning the game and that he's on the curve but unless he can learn and play at the NHL level, we shouldn't be shouldering his deficiencies.
As you said, "this place can get ahead of itself in terms of hyping players." That's an understatement to say the least.
Delusion? I have no delusions about Jake. I know he has limitations and warts - all players do - but I'm keeping an open mind about his ability to address these warts. He's 19 and has played less than 10 NHL games. Of course there are warts, but there are also signs of a top 6 forward that is just finding his NHL game.
As to 'shouldering his deficiencies', no one is more aware and critical of his deficiencies than the coach of the NHL club. Yet he has been willing lately to give Jake an increase in minutes, particularly late in games, so maybe you should worry less about what we are willing to 'shoulder'. Besides, I think his 'deficiencies' are grossly overblown in most of your posts. He isn't bleeding goals or even possession, his defensive coverage has been competent, and his puck management has been average-to-good. I'm honestly not seeing the massive 'deficiencies' that you are, even if I expect he will improve in pretty much all of the above areas.
As for the tendency of CDC to hype players, ya I agree and it isn't always the best for having a good discussion about players. However some of the posters go too far in the other direction and are essentially 'Negative Fanboys' who spin everything in a negative light and cannot acknowledge the positive signs that are apparent with Jake. Being negative isn't an antidote to the overly-optimistic posters around here, it just as bad and maybe even worse.
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Because him making the team this year means that he's made it
Really?
Man, is it a lot of work being consistently negative about a 19 year old kid who is going through the highs and lows of breaking into the NHL?
Like I get that this place can get ahead of itself in terms of hyping players and their last game is always a projection of the next 15 years in their career, but posts like yours are just as skewed in the other direction. I mean what exactly is Jake doing or not doing that grinds your gears so bad? He's learning the NHL game and finding ways to help the team without costing them points or games. I think he's played fairly well and seems to be getting a bit more confident each game , culminating in a great game last night (and not just the goal either).
Yet after all that you still seem stuck in the negative, like you just can't get past the fact that he isn't the player you wanted them to draft. It's too bad cause we're all enjoying seeing what this kid can do and become while you and a few others spend all your time grumbling about something that's in the past and can't be changed.
Ah well, to each their own I guess...
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Great game by Jake tonight. Scored what can be described as a "classic" Jake goal (based on his junior resume) and had several other grade A chances created by his speed and power driving the net. For all the angst about his "low IQ" or "uncreative" game, this is a solid example of how effective a simple "North South" game can be when you have Jake's wheels, strength, and aggression. Certainly he'll face better defences than Philasdelphia's tonight but it's a great start and certainly should give his confidence a big boost.
Love it!
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Great game by Jake tonight. Scored what can be described as a "classic" Jake goal (based on his junior resume) and had several other grade A chances created by his speed and power driving the net. For all the angst about his "low IQ" or "uncreative" game, this is a solid example of how effective a simple "North South" game can be when you have Jake's wheels, strength, and aggression. Certainly he'll face better defences than Philasdelphia's tonight but it's a great start and certainly should give his confidence a big boost.
Love it!
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Virt played an awesome game yesterday. 7 hits (BIG hits) registered on the official stat sheet, one assist, and a breakaway that could have very well been a goal. Not to mention he was rewarded with more playing time. Willie IS the right coach for these young guys.
I ripped into Willie a couple pages back for his usage of Jake and McCann in the Deteoit game (and past games before that) so I'll step up and give him credit for how he used them last night. Moving Jake to a veteran line w Sutter and Burrows was a good decision and giving him a regular shift and letting Jake get into a regular rhythm made a huge difference. Yes he bobbled that breakaway but it was great to see him use his speed to get it in the first place. Anyone who can't see Virtanen's upside beyond hitting (which isn't useless either) has a limited view of the NHL game IMO.
Good job by the kids and good job by Willie to loosen the reigns and give them a chance to shine. Hope to see more of that again.
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Right, because what's been said is completely ignorant.
I'd welcome a good debate but it's impossible to establish one if one side only has hypotheticals and statements about potential to back up their claims.
in order to engage in a debate there has to be more to the discussion than just hyperbole and rhetoric. You post offers nothing more than flowery words like "monstrous mistake", "miles better", and "everyone is too blind". Not really anything to base a discussion on really, as it's just one person's exaggerated opinion of what the future may look like.
Why would you expect a "good debate" when all your post is is the message board equivalent of a two year old's tantrum?
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Correlation does not equal causation.
oh I'n well aware of the difference. You watched Domi and Duclair yet? There is definitely causation there.
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Well done!
First time I've ever heard anyone reference Arizona as a model for success!
didn't mention anything about a "model" mate, just that there are two green, mistake-prone rookies playing big minutes on their team THIS YEAR and whoa, they aren't 0-8 somehow. Mind blown right? How can a team possibly play rookies and still win games?
Weird eh?
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You're delusional if you think the club will do this. Coach's are paid to win first. Developing players (while important) is a secondary concern. Benning/Linden have also stated numerous times their goal is to bring youth in to a winning environment.
You're basically, purposely setting yourself up for disappointment with that line of thinking.
I'm hardly delusional and while I understand that making a playoff spot has been stated as a goal of this management, is the marginal difference between Prust/ Dorsett and Virtanen/ McCann really worth potentially stunting the development of your two prized first rounders over?
If they were giving those minutes to the Sedins then ya that makes sense. But they are literally taking minutes from the future of this team - the "rebuild on the fly" part of the equation - and giving it to two stone handed plugs who hit and chase the puck. That isn't helping us win and it certainly isn't helping develop the kids. Wanna see how teams can develop kids AND win games? Go check out a Winnipeg or Arizona game where their talented but still learning rookies are given 14-17 minutes in offensive situations and their teams both have winning records.
So clearly playing rookies and winning aren't mutually exclusive scenarios, though Willie seems to treat it as such.
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This is the most intelligent thing that you've posted and I agree that he and McCann need to get more minutes before we know what type of players that we have in these 2. We still don't have a clue what they are capable of, because of their deployment. I don't blame WD, he's trying to protect these kids, but after hearing his comments on the radio today, it sounds like he is ready to give them a bigger role. http://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040-i-1410/desjardins-we-always-like-to-roll-4-lines-1.381661
If you look at the team, both of the kids are given spots under the 23 man roster. Higgins comes back and probably takes Baertschi's spot on LW and if you want to replace one of the kids you need a RW and/or a Center from Utica, to come up.
Vey is the obvious choice for C. Green has been playing him lots and he had a nice snipe last game, but he's already in the minors. In my mind you leave him there as long as you can, because he's not an upgrade over McCann.
Jensen and Grenier are the choices for RW. So then you have to decide whether either of those players are better than Jake. In my estimation they are all equal in skill , but Jake is more physical.
If your worried about burning a year from the ELC, there's always the argument that it doesn't matter as much, because they won't be putting up big numbers, therefore they won't demand as much come their next contract negotiation.
I feel as though the succession plan is to put the kids in now and speed up the rebuild by a year or 2. When you have leaders like the Sedins on your team, you want to get your top prospects with them early and often.
Ya I've read some of the transcripts of that interview and if Willie is being 100% honest and not just trying to justify his decisions in face of mounting criticism, then I guess its all good. I don't personally agree with the idea of sheltering players to the degree that he has but I can get past that if he starts to give Jake and McCann some legitimate opportunities in the next few games. At least make an effort to get a good read on their trajectory before they hit the 9 game mark (even though I agree the ELC mark isn't the biggest concern) and you then have to make a decision to keep them or send them back. I mean making a mistake (and learning to deal with it and bounce back on the next shift) is a part of being an NHL player, so no point trying to create an environment where they never make a mistake. That's how you learn what a player is made of and whether they are cut out for this league. Sadly we are nearly half way through Jake's 9 games and more than half through McCann's and we still don't really know yet.
Anyway, I hope he does give them those minutes on the projected lines next game and we can see what we have in these kids. As you say, the time to be bringing these kids in is now (or soon at least) as we have quality leaders like the Sedins, Burrows, etc to show them the ropes and help them find their way. Don't throw that away chasing a (nearly) meaningless playoff spot.
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In your defense we cannot say you did not warn us all before we read this .....uhm ......yeah
What specifically do you find so ... uhm .. yeah *picardfacepalm* with my post?
Are the Dorsett stats incorrect?
Am I wrong in thinking giving 16 minutes to a player who has 1 ENG all season and has seen his line badly outshot all season long is a bad idea?
Am I wrong in thinking that people who are criticizing Virtanen for "not doing much" in 7 minutes of ice time should probably not then be pumping the tires of Dorsett who also didn't "do much" in more than double the ice time?
Its all fine and good to make clever quips and post funny emoji's, but shouldn't you try to at least make a cogent point or counter-argument somewhere in there? Like ... anything at all maybe?
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I agree, but I wouldn't blame WD. I think it is more Benning who wants/wanted Virtanen to get a 9 game look. I think if it were solely up to WD Virtanen would already be back in junior. I think in the heat of the game the coach wants to win and play the guys he think will give him the best chance, right now for WD that is not Virtanen (it's hard to blame him). However, if Benning refuses to send Virtanen down and wants him in the line-up, I don't think WD has much of a choice but to only play him when he feels comfortable.
At this point, WD job isn't too worry about developing players but more so to try and win games. On the other hand it is Benning's job to be concerned with both winning and developing players.
People are putting far too high expectations on Virtanen. Let him take a few years to develop. It is very unlikely that he develops into a top line goal scoring power forward. And that will be OK, just give him some time. And stop blaming WD, if he actually thought Virtanen would make the team better he would be playing him more.
I'll blame WD because he is the one who is making the ice time usage decisions that I disagree with. The development of Jake (as well as McCann, Horvat, and Hutton) supersedes the importance of picking up points or making a playoff spot this year. We saw that movie last year and it was a waste of time. The team is (if anything) worse this year and even less likely to do better than a first round exit. While I can understand ownership's prioritizing of playoff revenue, it is the wrong focus IMO especially if it comes at the expense of developing our young talent.
And the problem with "trusting" Willie to make the right call with Jake is that he's shown time and time again to make questionable decisions regarding ice time and player usage. Last year's playoffs where he couldn't figure out the Sbisa and Bieksa were getting killed by Calgary's forecheck, played the Sedins 15-16 minutes and sat them late in games, etc are clear examples that Willie's judgement is not above being questioned.
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the more you type, the more you do sound like you are saying Jake's a bust and Nylander and Ehlers were better choices. Look. Plainly stated Jake is a far better player than the other two. He's bigger, tougher, faster, and a way better all round player, who brings a physical element the other two never will. He's more than just the guy we picked, he's the guy we were fortunate to pick so we weren't stuck with one of those aforementioned Smurfofties.
That's not what I typed. I liked the pick and I still have high hopes for Jake. But I've followed Canuck draft picks since Petr Nedved and simply put there is no exact science to predicting how a player will turn out. I've seen players I thought were surefire NHLers bust (Josh Holden, Cody Hodgson) and I've seen picks I hated at the time turn into top NHLers (Kesler). I am not sure arrogant or blind with Canuck passion that I dismiss the possibility that Jake can bust or not reach the heights expected of him.
Hes a great kid and I like him a lot but that doesn't mean he's a sure thing.
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how about force the junior team to trade his rights to Kelowna or Seattle, much like Edmonton did with LD?
It's not something that is commonly done but given that Vancouver has already kept Jake up for 4 games and clearly intends to give him a long, hard look until the 9 game mark I suppose it is possible that they try to exert some "pressure" on Calgary to move Jake to team where he might be a better fit. Technically they can't "force" Calgary to do anything, but they could threaten to keep him past the 9 games and hint that they would only return him if his rights had been traded first. Calgary could then get an asset for a player that they would not be getting anyway, and Vancouver could control the environment he plays in.
Doubt they'd do it though. Benning doesn't seem to be a "hardball" kind of guy (see any trade or contract he has ever completed).
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I started posting in this thread yesterday because I was responding to a poster who said that "Ehlers would have never made it here." It's flat out delusion to mask the fact that we picked the wrong guy.
Now, I'd love nothing more than for JV to succeed here but CDC has to take down their expectations of him a few notches.
I'll bet my account that he'll never be a first line player and we'll be lucky to see him be a second line mainstay. I hope for the welfare of this franchise that he rounds out to be a top six forward.
CDC can wear the homer glasses pretty thick, I'll give you that. My interest in Virtanen is not in proving I was right or wrong about him at the draft but to see that he is handled in a manner that ensures he develops into the best player he is capable of being. I have read waves of posters whine and panic that we had selected a "3rd line face off specialist" with the 9th pick in 2013 (meanwhile many loved the Shinkaruk pick and argued he was a better pick than Horvat). Then in 2014 people cried that McCann was redundant because we already had a defensive-minded 3C in Horvat. So I don't put a lot of stock in the minute-to-minute opinions of anonymous internet posters. If Jake becomes nothing more than a bottom 6 winger then he will certainly be a disappointing pick. But he is far from finished developing as a player so I'm not going to spend a lot of time bemoaning the selection or hoping for a do-over to take Ehlers or Nylander.
Jake's the player we have, I'd merely like to see him developed properly.
Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW
in Alumni
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Just a disallowed goal away. Hope his hand's ok though. Didn't like how he was holding it going off the ice or the fact that he didn't come back to the bench before the intermission.