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I Hate To Admit It But I'm Starting To Agree With Don Cherry...


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#31 DollarAndADream

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:14 AM

I agree with a lot of what you said, and with what Don Cherry says.


I think the punishment in this game is ridiculous, especially regarding fines.


Players are not going to give a crap about $2500. They make so much money that it's pocket change to them. They make like a minimum of $500,000 in a year. IF they were making minimum, and most players aren't.....then that's not even a big hit to the wallet.

Weber got a $2500 fine and he makes $7,500,000 this year. He obviously isn't effected by this.

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#32 OTTO_76

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:20 AM

My fisrt post.

I do agree that player now ware 'suits of armour' these days and if they are elbowing people in the head the injurys will be more devistating. There are two sides to this coin though. I agree with what you said, 'the game has evolved (bigger, faster, stronger)' and thats why the players need this equitment with big plastic armour. Players now are expected to go down and block 100mph slaps shots, they are skating around at insane speeds, and playing 82 games a season. If the players today were wearing the leather pads of the 70's and 80's none of them would make it 10 games into the season without being injured. There would be more injuries if the players were playing todays game with pads from 30 years ago, maybe not concusions, but far more injuries. Just some thoughts, feel free to flame me or share your thoughts on the issue.

Edited by OTTO_76, 25 April 2012 - 04:26 AM.


#33 Bodee

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:49 AM

Part of the problem is that a shoulder or an elbow to the head at speed is concussive. Consistency in punishment and long bans should be brought in now.

Does anyone think that Torres would be less of a head hunter just because he didn't have elbow pads. How do you cope with a stick to the elbow without protection.

While there may be some validity in Cherry's argument he is not comparing like with like. For example in rugby union most players have a mandatory 2 weeks out for concussion, was that ever the case in his day. His point is there are more concussions, My point is how does he know when in his day many probably played with some of the symptoms.

The only way to stamp them out (or at least to a reasonable level) is to firstly, make the punishment fit the crime and secondly refuse to tolerate repeat offenders.............put them out for a season.

For example Keith's hit whether he had a history or not was "outside the game and calculated to injure" We all saw Danny sit out important games while Keith played. That needs to be addressed. I'm not saying Keith calculated his ban but he could have and come to the conclusion it would be worth it because he would be back for the playoffs..........that is not right.

Edited by Bodee, 25 April 2012 - 04:55 AM.

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#34 Burnsey

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:51 AM

I dont know too much about the equipment myself but it is obviously something that can be looked at. But first imo, there is a huge lack of respect in the league. If you don't respect your opponent then you won't care what happens to them. As an example, we all hate Chicago but we must accept and respect the combination of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith (as much as i hate to say it).

The league needs respect first and then sort out the equipment.

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#35 canuckelhead70

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:01 AM

If Don is so great why isn't he coaching in the NHL? It's only been what 30 years......

#36 ice orca

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:42 AM

You can edit everything... you guys old geezers or something?


Yup a big time geez but i have seen some young geez on here make threads you cant even read let alone comprehend.

#37 Linden16Mclean1fan

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:55 AM

What about on Europeans, French-Canadians, and putting military garbage in a hockey program? He knows some about the game, granted, but the man is an ignorant, war-mongering racist.

Edit: Add sexist to that as well.


Oh now woh.. he had stats to back him up on the visor issue about Europeans and French-Canadians. I've been watching European hockey a little while, they aren't as physical as North Americans and that's their hockey culture. The man supports the troops and police officers who gave their lives for their fellow Canadians. There is nothing wrong with paying tribute to those people. If you do, it's time to think about moving to another country instead of living in the security that these people provide for you.
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#38 Linden16Mclean1fan

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:01 AM

If Don is so great why isn't he coaching in the NHL? It's only been what 30 years......


It's called politics. Do you think a guy who speaks his mind like Grapes does hasn't offended a lot of people?
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It's Ron 'Freaking' MacLean, people!!

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#39 Real deal - Stan Smyl

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:53 AM


Bodee, since you are brand new to the game of hockey, we will overlook some of this tripe.

God gave you two ears and one mouth, you should use them in that proportion.


Part of the problem is that a shoulder or an elbow to the head at speed is concussive. Consistency in punishment and long bans should be brought in now.

Does anyone think that Torres would be less of a head hunter just because he didn't have elbow pads. How do you cope with a stick to the elbow without protection.

While there may be some validity in Cherry's argument he is not comparing like with like. For example in rugby union most players have a mandatory 2 weeks out for concussion, was that ever the case in his day. His point is there are more concussions, My point is how does he know when in his day many probably played with some of the symptoms.

The only way to stamp them out (or at least to a reasonable level) is to firstly, make the punishment fit the crime and secondly refuse to tolerate repeat offenders.............put them out for a season.

For example Keith's hit whether he had a history or not was "outside the game and calculated to injure" We all saw Danny sit out important games while Keith played. That needs to be addressed. I'm not saying Keith calculated his ban but he could have and come to the conclusion it would be worth it because he would be back for the playoffs..........that is not right.



#40 Real deal - Stan Smyl

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:03 AM

If Don is so great why isn't he coaching in the NHL? It's only been what 30 years......


Grapes has "been there done that", got the championship ring.
"coach of the year" in fact.
The real question is why aren't you designing rockets?

Edited by Real deal - Stan Smyl, 25 April 2012 - 06:38 PM.


#41 MANGO

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:06 AM

he is definitely right about the plastic cup elbow pads. They are wepons, plus with less padding on, players are less likely to hit as hard as they do.

I also think some of the recent rule changes like eliminating the red line as far as 2 line passes go has gone alittle sideways on the league. The game at that point speed up a bit and now players are skating through the neutral zone so fast with thier heads down waiting for suicide passes. If we could just go back too the early 80's rule book, all would be well again. This would also bring back the instigator call, however, you still need someone too blow the whistle.
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#42 Real deal - Stan Smyl

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:09 AM

he is definitely right about the plastic cup elbow pads. They are wepons, plus with less padding on, players are less likely to hit as hard as they do.

I also think some of the recent rule changes like eliminating the red line as far as 2 line passes go has gone alittle sideways on the league. The game at that point speed up a bit and now players are skating through the neutral zone so fast with thier heads down waiting for suicide passes. If we could just go back too the early 80's rule book, all would be well again. This would also bring back the instigator call, however, you still need someone too blow the whistle.


Ahhhhh. Common sense!

#43 'NucKô

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:09 AM

You can edit everything... you guys old geezers or something?


Instead of trying your hardest to be a d*ck why don't you just tell the man how to edit titles?

(you have to use full editor btw)
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#44 Nino

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:24 AM

Love him or hate him, Grapes is almost always right.


He says a lot of things that people don't like but you have to respect him for saying what he feels. He's like the Simon of hockey.

He's right about Lou-gone-go and the pads.

#45 realnucksfan2010

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:28 AM

I agreed with Don when he first brought it up, the manufacturers of the equipmant are using cevlar for the pads, the military uses that stuff for flak jackets and the combat helmets!!
Honestly that is just a little bit of over kill don't you think. if a player getts elbowed in the head you might as well be hitting him with a hammer!
Not a huge fan of Ron and Don but they do every so often come up with some valid arguments and topics, I think that it is time for the league to look into the materials they use for "player protection"!
Good Post

#46 Geoff Peterson

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:34 AM

Been saying this for months get the ARMOUR off the ice, old leather pads stuffed with horse hair will put an end to this insanity..."BALLS"

However with all the money that these equipment companies have put into developing this crap, no doubt will put a stop to any company doing the right thing.

#47 gordfish

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:38 AM

Grapes also said that in his day, the Brown hit on Henrik would have been considered cheap and guys would have gone after Brown for it.

In other words, the biggest problem with these hits is that they are PREDATORY. Guys are actually trying to hurt each other, which wasn't always the case. Most of the time, guys would get a warning or two about keeping their heads up or admiring their passes before someone would really lay into them.

We talk about Scott Stevens, and you know what? He never was the same physical force after he hit Ron Francis in a playoff game and Francis was left doing the chicken on the ice. Scott realized what he was doing was wrong a full decade before the rest of the league caught up to it.

It's the attitude and lack of respect that has to change first.

#48 bluesman60

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:01 AM

Solution....build a head pad and they can all look like skating transformers out there.
Seriously, yes I agree with Don. When players played without face visors, players didn't stick a stick in a guys face because they knew that they could take the guys eye out. Another thing was that there was always a Dave Semenko there to take your head off if you did something like that.....on ice accountability.....they didn't need a 'Shanahammer' back then.
Another thing that has changed is that you used to see teams not playing their stars at all during the last 10 games of the season because they didn't want them injured by a cheap shot plus they wanted them fresh when the puck dropped in game 1 of the playoffs.
It seems to me that there are serious attempts to take out a star player from the opposition just preceding the playoffs. eg Keiths head shot on Daniel Sedin
Maybe that is Bettmans front office forcing teams to play the stars with little regard for the consequences of a team having their playoff run sabatoged.
I would not want to see the players go back to taking the visor off but I sure would like to see them respect each other more than they do now.

#49 Oh Whisht

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:08 AM

If they need to wear armour, it's no longer a game.

I think they should get rid of the hard equipment, and go back to playing.

I don't like Cherry either, but he does have the right idea on the equipment.

Hopefully, Shanny will make an example of a 'star' player. That is ALL that will make THEM take notice and behave out there.

#50 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:56 AM

Something about hockey is just more violent than other sports. I played football since pewee all the way up till I was 21. It's a physical, very high contact game. Players are big, heavily padded and fast. However there is no schinnanigans like there is in hockey. There's no post whistle BS, no fighting, no shoves, not even trash talking. A lot comes from structure, you are always playing on a clock, you don't have time to start **** after a play or you are penalized, the mildest push or punch is penalized, excessive talk is penalized. Retaliation or repeat fouls have you ejected from a game, possibly more. Also, something different from hockey, players accept contact without having to swallow their pride. If a player is on the bad side of a crushing hit, they are usually helped to their feet by the opposing player and compliment them on the play. There's a certain respect between players and teams. Ofcourse there are exceptions, though rare and they are dealt with rather severely. BTW im not one against a clean fight. Just some differences i've noticed in other physical sports i've played.

#51 Moreton

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:28 AM

first thing's first.. the $2500 fine was only that much because players dont get paid in the playoffs and thats the max amount in their CBA. dont like that? then get a seat on the NHLPA and re-negotiate...

Secondly, pads these days ARE ridiculous. mainly just elbow pads though. Most guys wont wear the "flak" armor any more as they lose mobility.. That said, pads should be exactly that. PADS. not shells.

There is also a lot to be said for the accountability of the players who GET hit. I remember i learned wayyy back in atom to :
1. keep your head up
2. be careful cutting into the middle
3. dont admire your pass or you'll pay for it
4. KNOW WHO IS ON THE ICE AGAINST YOU

I'd say about 50% of the injuries are avoidable if those 4 points are followed. The other 50% are from dirty plays/players.

And as for the Torres suspension.. they didnt suspend him 25 games for just that hit alone. They set an example for players like him. He plays on the edge, and has crossed the line on hits on numerous occasions. It's much like the Matt Cooke suspension. He's played great AND clean since that suspension. Hopefully the same goes for Raffi

#52 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:40 AM

If Don is so great why isn't he coaching in the NHL? It's only been what 30 years......


He probably didn't want to take the pay cut....

....or the aggravation. After all, CDC is a perfect example of how thousands of amateurs think they know more than the coach does...
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#53 snucks

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:44 AM

Another point Grapes makes is "accountability". Basically, back in the day, if you hit a star or ran anybody, you knew that someone on the ice was going to beat your ass. Guys definately take liberties these days because they won't be held accountable on the ice. Would Keith have laid that elbow on Danny if he knew somebody was going to pound on his face?... Nope. It happens over and over, stars get run and nobody beats the crap out of the offender, just a fine and suspension.. Ouch, hit 'em where it hurts: in the wallet?! These guys are loaded, fines and suspensions don't work.

By the same token, players feel they are safe in their armour, so they sometimes aren't paying attention and get their bell rung. It was always said "keep your head up".

#54 ccc44

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:05 PM

Love him or hate him, Grapes is almost always right.

not even close , Someone must have brought this to his attention and he spoke about on HNIC thats all
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#55 Guest_BuckFoston_*

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:11 PM

Instead of trying your hardest to be a d*ck why don't you just tell the man how to edit titles?

(you have to use full editor btw)


I don't have to try, it comes very naturally.

#56 ccc44

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:13 PM

first thing's first.. the $2500 fine was only that much because players dont get paid in the playoffs and thats the max amount in their CBA. dont like that? then get a seat on the NHLPA and re-negotiate...

Secondly, pads these days ARE ridiculous. mainly just elbow pads though. Most guys wont wear the "flak" armor any more as they lose mobility.. That said, pads should be exactly that. PADS. not shells.

There is also a lot to be said for the accountability of the players who GET hit. I remember i learned wayyy back in atom to :
1. keep your head up
2. be careful cutting into the middle
3. dont admire your pass or you'll pay for it
4. KNOW WHO IS ON THE ICE AGAINST YOU


I'd say about 50% of the injuries are avoidable if those 4 points are followed. The other 50% are from dirty plays/players.

And as for the Torres suspension.. they didnt suspend him 25 games for just that hit alone. They set an example for players like him. He plays on the edge, and has crossed the line on hits on numerous occasions. It's much like the Matt Cooke suspension. He's played great AND clean since that suspension. Hopefully the same goes for Raffi

I would say maybe even higher then 50 % , You watch many of the replays of what have been considered questionable and you see a lot of 1 and 3 and in my opinion thats makes them as much as at fault if not more for playing irresponsible as the guy giving the hit and
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#57 RGC

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:15 PM

Oh now woh.. he had stats to back him up on the visor issue about Europeans and French-Canadians. I've been watching European hockey a little while, they aren't as physical as North Americans and that's their hockey culture. The man supports the troops and police officers who gave their lives for their fellow Canadians. There is nothing wrong with paying tribute to those people. If you do, it's time to think about moving to another country instead of living in the security that these people provide for you.


I'll bite.

I wasn't talking about solely the visor issue, but his racism towards French-Canadian and European players in general. On the point of military, this has no place in my HOCKEY program. Don Cherry is paid to talk about hockey, I don't care what this buffoon has to say about Canada's foreign policy. It's also cheap patriotism which is not always, or even usually a good thing. Finally, those same soldier that you say ensure my security as Canadian citizen have actually made Canada a more dangerous place to be since they invaded Afghanistan. Do you think Canada was on anyone's list of places to attack before that war? And what about now? I could go on, but I'll leave it at that.

#58 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:39 PM

Bodee, since you are brand new to the game of hockey, we will overlook some of this tripe.

God gave you two ears and one mouth, you should use them in that proportion.


The guy doesn't have a clue, never played the game, lives in Scotland and just started watching the NHL/Canucks 2-3 years ago.
Comes in here preaching like he knows more about the game than Don Cherry.
Also seems to think Mason Raymond deserves the "C" , first line minutes and a statue outside beside Roger Neilson.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#59 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:45 PM

I'll bite.

I wasn't talking about solely the visor issue, but his racism towards French-Canadian and European players in general. On the point of military, this has no place in my HOCKEY program. Don Cherry is paid to talk about hockey, I don't care what this buffoon has to say about Canada's foreign policy. It's also cheap patriotism which is not always, or even usually a good thing. Finally, those same soldier that you say ensure my security as Canadian citizen have actually made Canada a more dangerous place to be since they invaded Afghanistan. Do you think Canada was on anyone's list of places to attack before that war? And what about now? I could go on, but I'll leave it at that.


Agreed.
If anyone thinks Steven Harpers NeoCon Toy Soldier routine is making us "safer" they need to give their head a shake.
Canada has gone from a country respected around the world as peacekeepers with foreign nationals wearing our flag on their backpacks to a country looked as Israel shills / George Bush wannabeez with a total goof as a leader hellbent on turning the planet into Mordor.

I really hope this pipeline for Communist China that will bring disaster to our coast is shoved up his ass and broken off.
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Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#60 VancouverHabitant

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:51 PM

The easy fix would be to reduce the size of shoulder pads and elbow pads.

Better to have an injured shoulder than give someone a concussion for the rest of their career.


Agree


While we're at it, I'd love it if the league went back to wooden sticks. Wooden sticks would mean that the shots would be much slower, and so in turn you could go to the goalies and tell them that their equipment needs to be reduced by 40%.

Less broken sticks as well (I could be wrong on this one)
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